Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[Lord Beerus]

The Saiyans themselves are a neutral concept. When you are writing a plot that focuses on constant improvement, not just for developing characters physically and mentally, but for also establishing drama and elevating the stakes in the plot, it's up to the author to use the Saiyans, as a narrative concept, in a fashion that would compliment that kind of story being told in an organic fashion.

Toriyama created a scenario where there was really no glass ceiling for the Saiyans to hit. This allowed Toriyama to always create a conflict involving the Saiyans as organically as possible when it came to elevating the drama and making the characters more powerful. And given the central character of Dragon Ball (Goku) is a Saiyan, a natural byproduct of needing to have the central character involved the main conflict is to make him stronger, as well as other's who share his biology by default. You can't really have that many grievances when the story is being told in that way.

But what I believe you can have an issue with his is how much stronger that character needs to be. The power creep in Dragon Ball is the root cause of how much the significance of the cast in ongoing conflicts has dwindled to just a handful of characters -- and sometimes just two characters -- at a time. When so much focus is being put on the biology of the main character -- and several others by virtue of association -- to raise the tension of the story, that will in turn have a knock-on effect on the utility of the supporting cast who don't share that biological advantage in the ongoing plot, especially when Dragon Ball boils down to who can hit the hardest.

It also does not help that when Dragon Ball truly indulged in being a glorified power-up/transformation race during the Freeza arc, that was when Dragon Ball was at its most popular, not just in Japan, but internationally. As much as it pains me to say this, a decent portion of Dragon Ball's fanbase come to the franchise primarily to see when the Saiyans (specifically Goku and Vegeta) will get their next transformation or power-up. Just look at the great success of (Super) Dragon Ball Heroes in Japan. The Saiyans sell and always have since 1990.

With the main story concluded over 20 years ago, and any current Dragon Ball stories taking place in a blank period for Dragon Ball where you don't have to worry about shaking up the status quo, it's hard to argue whether the focus Saiyan's has really "ruined" anything about the franchise. You can certainly argue the reliance on transformations for the Saiyans has become a bit of a crutch for potential story arcs in Super, with it appearing as though there's a necessity for Goku and/or Vegeta to ascend to another level of strength. But Super is very much inconsequential in the grand scheme of the plot for the original manga, as if Super were to be wiped from existence, nothing would change about the 42 volumes already published beyond a superficial level.

The very worst you can say about the indulgence in Saiyan biology and characters is that it has created a more sterile, artificial and commercially driven brand, but, Dragon Ball crossed that bridge a long-ass time ago.

[Zephyr]

The problem is when the show tried to put less powerful characters back in the plot ala Tournament of Powers fans complained about that.

[ᶜᶦᵗᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ ⁿᵉᵉᵈᵉᵈ]

You don't remember people whining about them bringing Roshi and Tenshinhan instead of Goten and Trunks? You don't remember the absolute outrage over Goku not killing his best friend in a beam struggle, or #17 going toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

[Gaffer Tape]

This is just me completely spitballing, but I do find the "fans complained when other characters were used" is a bit dubious. Not because I don't believe it happened. It did. I certainly remember that at the time. I just find it an odd rebuttal because I would guess that most of the people making that claim would be the ones who were okay with the Saiyan focus to begin with and were invested in the ever-increasing power side of things. And that's fine if they are. Like I said in my earlier post, those things have clearly helped DB sell. But since this is an argument from the opposite side, I don't know if it's fair to necessarily assume that such a reaction stems from people making the exact opposite argument. It's Dragon Ball. Every possible complaint exists and is debated, so of course there is going to be some subsection that thinks throwing non-Saiyan characters in the ToP was a bad idea. There was no shortage of bad ideas in that arc! And, of course, as some have pointed out, the blowback from some could also be attributed to execution, not the idea itself.

I just don't think it necessarily follows that "some people disliking the ToP roster negates the idea that the focus on Saiyans is bad" any more than saying "some people preferring the wacky comedy of early DB negates the idea that the focus on Saiyans is good."

[Cursed Lemon]

You don't remember people whining about them bringing Roshi and Tenshinhan instead of Goten and Trunks? You don't remember the absolute outrage over Goku not killing his best friend in a beam struggle, or #17 going toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Goten and Trunks occupy the same neglected status as guys like Tien, Yamcha, etc. It's perfectly valid to want to see them utilized, especially with all that potential. And while people complained about 17 being so much stronger for seemingly no reason, not a single person I've ever seen said they didn't want to see 17 fight anymore. Context matters. Who have you seen bitch about Krillin's short story arc before the tournament? Nobody, because it was cool and it made sense.

[MasenkoHA]

The problem is when the show tried to put less powerful characters back in the plot ala Tournament of Powers fans complained about that.

[ᶜᶦᵗᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ ⁿᵉᵉᵈᵉᵈ]

Literally on this forum.

Waah Roshi shouldn’t be there

Waah Kuririn shouldn’t be there

Waah 17 shouldn’t be able to keep up with Super Saiyan Blue

[Zephyr]

Who have you seen bitch about Krillin's short story arc before the tournament? Nobody, because it was cool and it made sense.

You might be getting the two parter set just before the recruitment stuff and the actual recruitment episode mixed up. I'm talking about the latter. While the Episode Archive lacks the relevant thread, the Way Back Machine has us covered. Well, at least for the first page.

Some choice quotes:

Can't believe what I'm seeing. Might as well make Kid Buu and Krillin equals

What a disgusting, horrible episode this was.. what kind of weed are they smoking? I must have that!

I dont even want to comment at Krillin pushing Goku to the point of SSJ just to stop his barrage of ki blasts... but he even goes toe to toe with SSJB Goku's KHH.... but it didnt stop there, fcking 18 pulling a fast one on Goku and despite that.... Goku the supposed fighting genius as well as Gohan.... learned something from those 2? seriously now? from those 2? the wife that barely does any form of martial arts and Krillin who has a job? I'm a fan of Krillin.... but this is pushing it! its ok to make Krillin look good, but not in the expense of making him go toe to toe with SSJB and actually pushing its KHH back.

This shit went on for pages, and was hilarious. I'm surprised you don't remember. Unless you emphasizing that it "made sense" was a dig specifically at posts like these.

[Cursed Lemon]

Who have you seen bitch about Krillin's short story arc before the tournament? Nobody, because it was cool and it made sense.

You might be getting the two parter set just before the recruitment stuff and the actual recruitment episode mixed up. I'm talking about the latter. While the Episode Archive lacks the relevant thread, the Way Back Machine has us covered. Well, at least for the first page.

Some choice quotes:

Can't believe what I'm seeing. Might as well make Kid Buu and Krillin equals

What a disgusting, horrible episode this was.. what kind of weed are they smoking? I must have that!

I dont even want to comment at Krillin pushing Goku to the point of SSJ just to stop his barrage of ki blasts... but he even goes toe to toe with SSJB Goku's KHH.... but it didnt stop there, fcking 18 pulling a fast one on Goku and despite that.... Goku the supposed fighting genius as well as Gohan.... learned something from those 2? seriously now? from those 2? the wife that barely does any form of martial arts and Krillin who has a job? I'm a fan of Krillin.... but this is pushing it! its ok to make Krillin look good, but not in the expense of making him go toe to toe with SSJB and actually pushing its KHH back.

This shit went on for pages, and was hilarious. I'm surprised you don't remember. Unless you emphasizing that it "made sense" was a dig specifically at posts like these.

I'm seeing a whooooole lot of this sentiment:



Power scaling? Stupid. Enjoying the presence of the other characters? Absolutely.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Relevant to OP, it's basically completely impossible to fix the power scaling issue and have guys like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks, even a guy like Piccolo make a big difference; they had to turn power creep up to an insane level just to even make these guys relevant. If you have to basically cheat to be able to involve other characters at all, that's a problem.

[Lionel]

I'd argue it's systematised the progression mechanics while fostering this exclusivist paradigm that allows for only a select few to be materially valuable in the bread and butter of Dragon Ball. Saiyanism alone doesn't account for the methodical writing pattern or the dynamics of the characters. So much more can be written detailing on the faults concerning the present arrangement of the series but the Saiyan exclucivism is just one aspect of it, albeit a very pervasive one.

If Toriyama and his protege are wanting to invoke any kind of emotions as it pertains to their duopoly leads then they're not doing a great job, at least for myself. What's ironic is that the few times I do feel any kind of empathy or concern or interest like for Vegeta it's usually when he's subverting the caricatural personality aspects of his Saiyan background and embracing his humanity -- think his complicated relationship with the Namekians or the contemplative outlook he's assumed with the sins of the Saiyans and their demise at the hands of Freeza.

[kemuri07]

That's not true at all. Gohan's development in the tournament of power was a highlight.

This. And I can’t stress how amazing it is Super addressed fans complaints with Gohan’s development in late Z and rectified it in a believable way that felt natural for the character but hey he didn’t become Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 5 Ultra Mega Superior Instinct Gohan and knocked the entire tournament out so not good enough!

For all of Super’s many many many shortcomings and flaws Gohan’s character arc isn’t one of them.

I mean..that personally wasn't my issue with the character so that's kind of a moot point.

Also: One Piece and Dragon Ball are both Shounen adventure shows with One Piece--especially early One Piece--being heavily inspired by Dragon Ball. And while I'd say that OP is closer to the more comedic tones of early DB, both Super ane OP share enough tropes among them that they're more similar than they are different. Also: the fact that none of Luffy's companions can just destroy planets at a whim is EXACTLY THE POINT. Dragon Ball's power creep is a problem that it never really managed to solve, and so any character that isn't a Saiyan is reduced to a background character. When even the base level Saiyan has the ability to destroy planets, there's no true stakes any more. And none of the characters who aren't gifted with super max haxor powers like the Saiyans are left behind.

they had to turn power creep up to an insane level just to even make these guys relevant. If you have to basically cheat to be able to involve other characters at all, that's a problem.

THAT'S A BINGO.

t also does not help that when Dragon Ball truly indulged in being a glorified power-up/transformation race during the Freeza arc, that was when Dragon Ball was at its most popular, not just in Japan, but internationally. As much as it pains me to say this, a decent portion of Dragon Ball's fanbase come to the franchise primarily to see when the Saiyans (specifically Goku and Vegeta) will get their next transformation or power-up. Just look at the great success of (Super) Dragon Ball Heroes in Japan. The Saiyans sell and always have since 1990.

This is a fantastic point. And I saw a lot of that during the airing of Super. A lot of fans who only cared about Goku getting the next powerup no matter whether it actually worked. It's frustrating as all hell: DB at this point is an institution, and therefore, can't really change.

[ABED]

Also: One Piece and Dragon Ball are both Shounen adventure shows with One Piece--especially early One Piece--being heavily inspired by Dragon Ball. And while I'd say that OP is closer to the more comedic tones of early DB, both Super ane OP share enough tropes among them that they're more similar than they are different. Also: the fact that none of Luffy's companions can just destroy planets at a whim is EXACTLY THE POINT. Dragon Ball's power creep is a problem that it never really managed to solve, and so any character that isn't a Saiyan is reduced to a background character. When even the base level Saiyan has the ability to destroy planets, there's no true stakes any more. And none of the characters who aren't gifted with super max haxor powers like the Saiyans are left behind.

Shonen's a demographic, not a genre. They aren't in the same genre. Dragon Ball is a martial arts fantasy, and One Piece is a pirate adventure. Even if they share a lot, that difference is HUGE. By its nature, being a pirate adventure requires the story to be an ensemble piece. And this isn't about power creep. Muten Roshi blew up the moon in the second arc.

Strong character work doesn't require characters to be even in the same league as the top tier characters' strength. The whole power creep argument just sounds like "if they can't beat or help beat the big bad, they mean nothing to the story". And that's flat out untrue.

[kemuri07]

Also: One Piece and Dragon Ball are both Shounen adventure shows with One Piece--especially early One Piece--being heavily inspired by Dragon Ball. And while I'd say that OP is closer to the more comedic tones of early DB, both Super ane OP share enough tropes among them that they're more similar than they are different. Also: the fact that none of Luffy's companions can just destroy planets at a whim is EXACTLY THE POINT. Dragon Ball's power creep is a problem that it never really managed to solve, and so any character that isn't a Saiyan is reduced to a background character. When even the base level Saiyan has the ability to destroy planets, there's no true stakes any more. And none of the characters who aren't gifted with super max haxor powers like the Saiyans are left behind.

Shonen's a demographic, not a genre. They aren't in the same genre. Dragon Ball is a martial arts fantasy, and One Piece is a pirate adventure. Even if they share a lot, that difference is HUGE. By its nature, being a pirate adventure requires the story to be an ensemble piece. And this isn't about power creep. Muten Roshi blew up the moon in the second arc.

And Dragonball somehow wasn't an ensemble piece? It is very much an ensemble story in the same way that One Piece absolutely is.

Also tone. Dragon Ball started out as a gag manga and was a long way from the more serious tone of later Dragon Ball and Z. And even then, it's not like its the only evidence of Dragon Ball's power creep.

[ABED]

It has a lot of great characters but it's not an ensemble. It's not about the group as a whole. Again, it's not at all in the same genre as One Piece. It's about Goku's journey and his growth as a martial artist and why most of the battles are ultimately down to waiting for him to show up. You can fight on your own, you can't sail a big ship on your own. One Piece requires an ensemble.

The tone isn't relevant to the issue at all.

I didn't say there wasn't powercreep. I said that's not the problem.

[Zephyr]

I'm seeing a whooooole lot of this sentiment:

Yeah, there's plenty of people who enjoyed it, myself included. But you were suggesting that "nobody bitched about Krillin", which was untrue.

Relevant to OP, it's basically completely impossible to fix the power scaling issue and have guys like Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks, even a guy like Piccolo make a big difference; they had to turn power creep up to an insane level just to even make these guys relevant. If you have to basically cheat to be able to involve other characters at all, that's a problem.

Not really? This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever they want to power someone up, and make it logistically exclusive to them in any number of ways. Or, just have them still be far behind bigger hitters like Goku, and still play a role anyway. Which is what happened.

[Cursed Lemon]

Not really? This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever they want to power someone up, and make it logistically exclusive to them in any number of ways. Or, just have them still be far behind bigger hitters like Goku, and still play a role anyway. Which is what happened.

"If the author wants to utilize lampshading and overall bad/nonsensical writing, that's their prerogative" is a terrible argument.

[NickLord]

Even before Z, none of the Human characters were ever given much focus outside of the sagas they were introduced in, with the exception being Roshi in the King Piccolo arc. And outside of Tournament arcs, none of the human allies were ever shown to be useful or relevant in combat or even narratively in general.

[NickLord]

It has a lot of great characters but it's not an ensemble. It's not about the group as a whole. Again, it's not at all in the same genre as One Piece. It's about Goku's journey and his growth as a martial artist and why most of the battles are ultimately down to waiting for him to show up. You can fight on your own, you can't sail a big ship on your own. One Piece requires an ensemble.

The tone isn't relevant to the issue at all.

I didn't say there wasn't powercreep. I said that's not the problem.

One Piece is not an ensemble either. An ensemble is simply any story without a main protagonist, and Luffy is clearly the protagonist of One Piece.

Way too much people in the fandom use the "Dragonball is not ensemble" excuse as a way to deflect valid criticism of the lack of focus, development and general utility most of supporting cast gets in the series. When you write a recurring character in any story regardless of its genre and whether or not said character is a protagonist, you are suppose to flesh them out and utilize them as much as its possible and if not then permanently get rid of them instead of just pointlessly having them around doing nothing.

"Dragonball is Goku's story" is no excuse for writing other characters poorly.

[PurestEvil]

Not really? This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever they want to power someone up, and make it logistically exclusive to them in any number of ways. Or, just have them still be far behind bigger hitters like Goku, and still play a role anyway. Which is what happened.

"If the author wants to utilize lampshading and overall bad/nonsensical writing, that's their prerogative" is a terrible argument.

I mean, it's technically true, but that rubbish should obviously be called out

[Goe]

Interesting question.

About saiyans, my opinion is:

1) Saiyan saga: interesting plot. Goku is an alien and has a brother! Fight agains Vegeta and Nappa was great.
2) Freezer saga: again, interesting plot. Saiyans were bretrayed by Freezer! Vegeta is an interesting character in this saga, because is the first time good guys join with a bad guy because they have an enemy in common. SSJ was a cool concept. Thanks to this saga we meet Bardock, my favourite character.
3) Cell saga: Future Trunks, Vegeta and Gohan became SSJ. That was okay because Goku being SSJ may be a bit boring. About Gohan becoming a SSJ...hum...he was too young but he has a amazing potential, so that's aceptable.
4) Bu saga: Goten and Present Trunks being SSJ with 7&8 years old and without training hard and without rage attack? I don't like it at all.

About how saiyans affect non-saiyan warriors, my opinion is:

1) Saiyan saga: Krillin killed a lot of saibamen, and Piccolo one of them. Piccolo and all human warriors helped to keep earth safe before Goku's arrival, so the played a good role even they died. Even Yajirobai was useful.
2) Freezer saga: Krillin did a good role even being weaker than saiyans. He defeated one of Freezer's soldiers, cut Freezer's tail, used Taiyo-ken against Dodoria, and destroyed Recoome's teeth. And of course, had intelligent ideas. And he was the guy who thought about going to Namek to join dragon balls.
3) Cell saga: Piccolo did a good role against Dr. Gero and 1st form cell. Ten Shin Han was useful against 2nd form cell.
4) Bu saga: Ten saved Dende and Mr. Satan.

So, in the original manga/anime tv series, saiyans didn't ruin the franchise, because human warriors were useful even being weaker. And, honestly, before saiyan saga, all of them were already weaker than Goku and couldn't win a lot of fights. Krillin was defeated by RR Blue, and Goku defeated the whole army without his friend's help (but Muten defeated some RR guys). About Piccolo Daimaoh, nobody could do a simple thing against him, only Goku.

In DBZ films, I think saiyans are usually the only strong warriors, specially Goku. Krillin is the films clown who is defeated by one hit and complains about it (why this always happens to me?). In Turles film, all humans were defeated by Turles henchmen and Goku kills all of them. I think Yamcha, Ten and Krillin should defeat them, and Goku should defeat Turles. However, Piccolo killed Salza in Cooler's film. About that films I don't wacth them since 20th century so I have forgot some things, but my memories are: saiyans are great, non-saiyans are not, and Krillin is a clown.

[Nagyzöld]

Given the immense success of the franchise I'd hardly call it "ruined". Would I have liked it if our well known human/Namekian characters had proper development and could hold their own in battles? Sure. Do I have hope it's gonna happen? Nope. Besides, the stakes were already compromised the moment they introduced enemies who could destroy planets just by throwing boogers at them and even further. They set a precedent for future threats absurdly powerful, and gotta make everything believable as well.

[ABED]

It has a lot of great characters but it's not an ensemble. It's not about the group as a whole. Again, it's not at all in the same genre as One Piece. It's about Goku's journey and his growth as a martial artist and why most of the battles are ultimately down to waiting for him to show up. You can fight on your own, you can't sail a big ship on your own. One Piece requires an ensemble.

The tone isn't relevant to the issue at all.

I didn't say there wasn't powercreep. I said that's not the problem.

One Piece is not an ensemble either. An ensemble is simply any story without a main protagonist, and Luffy is clearly the protagonist of One Piece.

Way too much people in the fandom use the "Dragonball is not ensemble" excuse as a way to deflect valid criticism of the lack of focus, development and general utility most of supporting cast gets in the series. When you write a recurring character in any story regardless of its genre and whether or not said character is a protagonist, you are suppose to flesh them out and utilize them as much as its possible and if not then permanently get rid of them instead of just pointlessly having them around doing nothing.

"Dragonball is Goku's story" is no excuse for writing other characters poorly.

And DB does have fleshed out characters. It's main fault is that when they finish their journeys they often stick around and do little, but it's not due to power creep.

And no one is friggin' excusing it. It's simply an acknowledgement that putting most of the focus on one character isn't flaw, it's a feature. And having the other characters doing important things and contributing to the story doesn't require them beating the big bad or being close to Goku's strength.

And when I say OP is an ensemble, it's because it by its nature can't just have one character do it all. Luffy needs a large supporting cast who have very specific roles they fulfill. No one can sail a ship like that by themselves. It necessitates a larger degree of focus than on just the main character.

"If the author wants to utilize lampshading and overall bad/nonsensical writing, that's their prerogative" is a terrible argument.

How is that idea bad writing?