Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[MetaMoss]

Yes its almost like the OP said

Many fans are burnt out and tired of saiyans. Since DB the show has been entirely the saiyan show with emphasis solely on saiyans with every other race being squeezed out. Many people in DB:Super have referred to it as the Goku and Vegeta show and dropped the series because their other favorite characters are useless.

When one of the primary complaints is “Dragon Ball Super has too much focus on Goku”’it evidently needs repeating that Goku is the main character and has been since 1984.

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

[MasenkoHA]

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

And again you get that in Super.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”


This is why I have a hard time buying fan complaints are anything other than not wanting to understand Goku is the main character and it is not an ensemble show.

[MyVisionity]

They should have just dropped those characters for Super. GT wisely let go of the Earthling fighters in order to move forward. Super could have just focused on Goku and Vegeta and forgotten the rest. Yeah maybe keep Gohan around.

Long running series should know when to make cast changes. Scooby-Doo understood when to drop Fred and Velma and keep Scooby, Shaggy, and Daphne around. They understood how the show was evolving. Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Giles were rightfully cut out of BtVS. And so on.

[MetaMoss]

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”

I think this goes back to the question of the quality of Super's writing, because while I certainly watched every single one of those moments, hardly any of them stuck with me. Throwing a bone every once and a while to viewers who want to see more from the extended cast isn't enough to counteract the long stretches of the Goku/Vegeta status quo, at least for me.

And I'll grant that Super is a major improvement over the Boo arc in this regard, especially the Tournament of Power, but again, another rehash of the tournament format was probably the least interesting way to bring these characters back into the fold.

[MasenkoHA]

. They understood how the show was evolving. Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Giles were rightfully cut out of BtVS. And so on.

Cordelia and Angel were moved to Angel’s show. Had Angel’s spin off not happened Cordelia probably would have stayed on at Buffy. Oz was written out because Seth Green wanted to do other things not because the character had ran its course. Giles got reduced to a recurring character because Anthony Stewart Head wanted to spend more time with his family. None of these decisions were made because “these characters were no longer needed” We’re talking about a show that kept Xander around despite him being completely fucking useless.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”

I think this goes back to the question of the quality of Super's writing, because while I certainly watched every single one of those moments, hardly any of them stuck with me. Throwing a bone every once and a while to viewers who want to see more from the extended cast isn't enough to counteract the long stretches of the Goku/Vegeta status quo, at least for me.

And I'll grant that Super is a major improvement over the Boo arc in this regard, especially the Tournament of Power, but again, another rehash of the tournament format was probably the least interesting way to bring these characters back into the fold.

And I agree with you on the sentiment that Super’s writing isn’t great (particularly the first two arcs and the Zamasu arc) but I can’t agree with the mentality that Super short changed supporting characters. At least not compared to the Boo saga and GT

[dva_raza]

They should have just dropped those characters for Super. GT wisely let go of the Earthling fighters in order to move forward. Super could have just focused on Goku and Vegeta and forgotten the rest. Yeah maybe keep Gohan around.

Lol I dont think GT did anything "wisely" especially with the usage of the characters. That show is dull mainly because of that. Anybody outside of Goku and Pan were like cardboard characters who were.. there. Super anime utililzed the ensamble perfectly with compelling and meaningful interventions from all te characters throughout the whole show while maintaining Goku and Vegeta as the main characters. The manga currently is another thing, but if the anime had focused solely on Goku and Vegeta it would have not been as good as it is

[NickLord]

They should have just dropped those characters for Super. GT wisely let go of the Earthling fighters in order to move forward. Super could have just focused on Goku and Vegeta and forgotten the rest. Yeah maybe keep Gohan around.

Long running series should know when to make cast changes. Scooby-Doo understood when to drop Fred and Velma and keep Scooby, Shaggy, and Daphne around. They understood how the show was evolving. Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Giles were rightfully cut out of BtVS. And so on.

MistareFusion in one of his DB Dissection episodes once pointed out if the Human fighters & even Piccolo got permanently written out of the series after the Saiyan saga little-to-nothing would change with the narrative of the franchise. I thought about that after he said and realized that he was basically right.

In contrast, if you were to erase Vegeta from the story at literally any earlier point of Z and to a lesser extent Super (he was a nothing character in GT) then a lot would change from then on out. That's a sign of a character that's actually being invested in by the author. Hell, Future Trunks, a character that's only appeared in one saga in the OG Manga, has had a bigger impact on the narrative of Dragonball than literally any of the Human fighters that have been around since OG DB with the arguable exception of Roshi and that speaks poorly on those characters.

If you can hypothetically erase a major or recurring character from a story in an earlier point of it and basically nothing would change as a result of that then that's a major sign that said character is a nothing character or a woefully underwritten one. That's a severe storytelling flaw regardless of the genre you're working with.

[MasenkoHA]

MistareFusion in one of his DB Dissection episodes once pointed out if the Human fighters & even Piccolo got permanently written out of the series after the Saiyan saga little-to-nothing would change with the narrative of the franchise. I thought about that after he said and realized that he was basically right.

He’s absolutely incorrect but hey!

[MyVisionity]

. They understood how the show was evolving. Cordelia, Angel, Oz, Giles were rightfully cut out of BtVS. And so on.

Cordelia and Angel were moved to Angel’s show. Had Angel’s spin off not happened Cordelia probably would have stayed on as Buffy. Oz was written out because Seth Green wanted to do other things not because the character had ran its course. Giles got reduced to a recurring character because Anthony Stewart Head wanted to spend more time with his family. None of these decisions were made because “these characters were no longer needed” We’re talking about a show that kept Xander around despite him being completely fucking useless.

I'd argue that those characters had run their course, and that for the sake of the show's future they needed to be cut. The spinoffs and actors' personal concerns just created the right opportunity for them to do so.

Xander was a core member of the trio and certainly wouldn't have been cut so easily. In fact, Season 7 could have potentially seen him with an even larger role as Buffy's new love interest and Dawn's surrogate father had the writers been sharper and SMG hadn't called quits.

They should have just dropped those characters for Super. GT wisely let go of the Earthling fighters in order to move forward. Super could have just focused on Goku and Vegeta and forgotten the rest. Yeah maybe keep Gohan around.

Lol I dont think GT did anything "wisely" especially with the usage of the characters. That show is dull mainly because of that. Anybody outside of Goku and Pan were like cardboard characters who were.. there. Super anime utililzed the ensamble perfectly with compelling and meaningful interventions from all te characters throughout the whole show while maintaining Goku and Vegeta as the main characters. The manga currently is another thing, but if the anime had focused solely on Goku and Vegeta it would have not been as good as it is

GT knew to keep Ten, Yamcha, and Kuririn absent and to put Goku and Vegeta where they belonged. If they needed anyone else, they had the Saiyan kids and Oob. This is how you move a series forward. Super could have evolved the story that way instead of attempting to make meaningful character moments with characters that no longer deserved them.

[MetaMoss]

And I agree with you on the sentiment that Super’s writing isn’t great (particularly the first two arcs and the Zamasu arc) but I can’t agree with the mentality that Super short changed supporting characters. At least not compared to the Boo saga and GT

I think the trick is that Boo and GT are such low bars in that regard. For sure Super improved on that, but what it provides on that front sure feels like table scraps.

Thinking about it more, I'd say my deeper criticism of some of those moments is how little they relate to Goku and Vegeta, funnily enough. Up until the ToP (and even during), these characters returning didn't mean much for what Goku was up to or where his life was. They weren't there for the main character, they were there for us, the audience. And I think the re-introductions that happened earlier on would have more justification if it lead to those characters having some noticeable impact on Goku again. Alas, for the most part, that didn't happen, which leaves most of what Super did for the extended cast feeling like cheap fanservice.

[MasenkoHA]

I'd argue that those characters had run their course, and that for the sake of the show's future they needed to be cut. The spinoffs and actors' personal concerns just created the right opportunity for them to do so.

You can argue that. It doesn’t change that it wasn’t a creative decision.

Xander was a core member of the trio and certainly wouldn't have been cut so easily

Oolong was a core member of the Dragon Ball team in the first arc, doesn’t mean the character wasn’t superfluous afterwards. Xander very easily could have been cut as he had no purpose other than being Whedon’s avatar. Which should have been the first red flag in light of recent news

.

In fact, Season 7 could have potentially seen him with an even larger role as Buffy's new love interest and Dawn's surrogate father had the writers been sharper

.
Yeah having Buffy and Xander become a couple after Xander’s whiny nice guy(TM) behavior that plagued the first few seasons isn’t what I’d call a missed opportunity.

. If they needed anyone else, they had the Saiyan kids and Oob. This is how you move a series forward. Super could have evolved the story that way instead of attempting to make meaningful character moments with characters that no longer deserved them.

I swear sometimes you exist just to have contrarian opinions.

And I agree with you on the sentiment that Super’s writing isn’t great (particularly the first two arcs and the Zamasu arc) but I can’t agree with the mentality that Super short changed supporting characters. At least not compared to the Boo saga and GT

I think the trick is that Boo and GT are such low bars in that regard. For sure Super improved on that, but what it provides on that front sure feels like table scraps.

Thinking about it more, I'd say my deeper criticism of some of those moments is how little they relate to Goku and Vegeta, funnily enough. Up until the ToP (and even during), these characters returning didn't mean much for what Goku was up to or where his life was. They weren't there for the main character, they were there for us, the audience. And I think the re-introductions that happened earlier on would have more justification if it lead to those characters having some noticeable impact on Goku again. Alas, for the most part, that didn't happen, which leaves most of what Super did for the extended cast feeling like cheap fanservice.

And again that’s fair. Super was definitely driven by fan service rather than creative ingenuity. This is why I still think GT was conceptually the better series even if I enjoyed Super more in execution for being low grade fun. There were some highlights like Gohan’s character arc but definitely a lot of cheap bones being thrown.

I do like Roshi’s stuff in the ToP purely because I’m a big fan of Roshi as Goku’s teacher more than Roshi the sexual predator and it was nice seeing the series actually acknowledge these two have a deep bond (honestly my favorite relationship in Dragon Ball after Gohan and Piccolo) even if it could have been handled in a way that felt more organic and less fan service-y

[MetaMoss]

I think the trick is that Boo and GT are such low bars in that regard. For sure Super improved on that, but what it provides on that front sure feels like table scraps.

Thinking about it more, I'd say my deeper criticism of some of those moments is how little they relate to Goku and Vegeta, funnily enough. Up until the ToP (and even during), these characters returning didn't mean much for what Goku was up to or where his life was. They weren't there for the main character, they were there for us, the audience. And I think the re-introductions that happened earlier on would have more justification if it lead to those characters having some noticeable impact on Goku again. Alas, for the most part, that didn't happen, which leaves most of what Super did for the extended cast feeling like cheap fanservice.

And again that’s fair. Super was definitely driven by fan service rather than creative ingenuity. This is why I still think GT was conceptually the better series even if I enjoyed Super more in execution for being low grade fun. There were some highlights like Gohan’s character arc but definitely a lot of cheap bones being thrown.

I do like Roshi’s stuff in the ToP purely because I’m a big fan of Roshi as Goku’s teacher more than Roshi the sexual predator and it was nice seeing the series remembering they had a bond even if it could have been handled a bit better.

Dang, when all's said and done, looks like we're on the same page here

[ABED]

And I agree with you on the sentiment that Super’s writing isn’t great (particularly the first two arcs and the Zamasu arc) but I can’t agree with the mentality that Super short changed supporting characters. At least not compared to the Boo saga and GT

I think the trick is that Boo and GT are such low bars in that regard. For sure Super improved on that, but what it provides on that front sure feels like table scraps.

Thinking about it more, I'd say my deeper criticism of some of those moments is how little they relate to Goku and Vegeta, funnily enough. Up until the ToP (and even during), these characters returning didn't mean much for what Goku was up to or where his life was. They weren't there for the main character, they were there for us, the audience. And I think the re-introductions that happened earlier on would have more justification if it lead to those characters having some noticeable impact on Goku again. Alas, for the most part, that didn't happen, which leaves most of what Super did for the extended cast feeling like cheap fanservice.

I don't think that necessarily constitutes fanservice. Their journeys are ends in themselves and worthwhile stories to tell over and above just how they concern Goku and Vegeta. Cheap fanservice would be just having them around. Bringing back Freeza is way more fanservice-y even though he does have some impact on Goku and Vegeta. Same goes for Broly

de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him.

He doesn't need to be de-emphasized to give the supporting characters interesting things to do.

Oolong was a core member of the Dragon Ball team in the first arc, doesn’t mean the character wasn’t superfluous afterwards. Xander very easily could have been cut as he had no purpose other than being Whedon’s avatar. Which should have been the first red flag in light of recent news

He did have a purpose. He has a journey of his own to take. He's the normal person amongst a group of extraordinary people. And apparently unlike Whedon, he grows up. I know that when bad things about artists, there's a tendency to put everything through a certain lens, but artists are more than just their worst traits. There are also a LOT of writers who weren't crappy people working on the show. So boiling it down to "character X is a lot like the writer, and that tells me all I need to know" feels like a reductive take. Jimmy Olsen isn't all that important to the plot, but losing him from the Superman mythos does take away quite a bit.

[MasenkoHA]

[He did have a purpose. He has a journey of his own to take. He's the normal person amongst a group of extraordinary people. And apparently unlike Whedon, he grows up. I know that when bad things about artists, there's a tendency to put everything through a certain lens, but artists are more than just their worst traits. There are also a LOT of writers who weren't crappy people working on the show. So boiling it down to "character X is a lot like the writer, and that tells me all I need to know" feels like a reductive take. Jimmy Olsen isn't all that important to the plot, but losing him from the Superman mythos does take away quite a bit.

Just so we’re clear I thought Xander was a piece of shit long before it came out Whedon was one. I’m not damning Xander for being based on Whedon, I’m saying Xander’s awfulness should have made the Whedon revelation less surprising in hindsight.

[MyVisionity]

Xander could be an asshole in earlier seasons, but he was still a kid afterall. By the time Season 7 rolled around he had matured a lot and was ready to take his place at Buffy's side.

[ABED]

Kuririn serves a similar function. He's not that important to the plot, generally, but he is his own character with his own journey that's worth taking. In a story filled with literal gods and people who ascend to godhood, having the normal guy there to comment on it all feels like a worthwhile character to have around.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, Jimmy Olsen is important in that he's, like, the one male friend (okay, we all she's a trans woman but I digress) that Clark has at the Daily Planet. They're bros! If you remove him you basically have Ron and Lombard and a bunch of women who keep trying to sleep with Clark. And his wife. :p

[dva_raza]

GT knew to keep Ten, Yamcha, and Kuririn absent and to put Goku and Vegeta where they belonged.

Well I don't know, it doesn't really seem that they "knew" to keep them absent, but more like they didn't know wtf to do with anybody. Which feels like bad writing.
And I wouldn't say Vegeta "belonged" in the role of a washed up loser who's only participation came at the very end when fusing with Goku.

If they needed anyone else, they had the Saiyan kids and Oob. This is how you move a series forward. Super could have evolved the story that way instead of attempting to make meaningful character moments with characters that no longer deserved them.

Not sure I get the logic that a lack of involvement from other characters helps "evolve" the story?
And well, it wasn't an "attempt", the character moments. They achieved a clever and effective use of everybody while creating a top notch comedic timing for the show, really don't know what other kind of "meaning" there should have been for each character that people are or were expecting to see to feel satisfied (and that could have also been justified).

[jjgp1112]

GT barely utilized Vegeta anyway lmao (Though I actually prefer Vegetas GT characterization to his Super character outside of the Moro arc)

[MyVisionity]

GT knew to keep Ten, Yamcha, and Kuririn absent and to put Goku and Vegeta where they belonged.

Well I don't know, it doesn't really seem that they "knew" to keep them absent, but more like they didn't know wtf to do with anybody. Which feels like bad writing.
And I wouldn't say Vegeta "belonged" in the role of a washed up loser who's only participation came at the very end when fusing with Goku.

They knew that Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Kuririn were finished. So they didn't attempt to utilize them unnecessarily.

Vegeta not only joined Goku in battle against Yixing Long, he also led the charge against Super 17 while Goku was trapped in Hell. Not to mention challenged Baby in battle while being his primary objective. Next to Goku, Vegeta was probably utilized the best out of all of the older characters and was Goku's second-in-command and top soldier.

If they needed anyone else, they had the Saiyan kids and Oob. This is how you move a series forward. Super could have evolved the story that way instead of attempting to make meaningful character moments with characters that no longer deserved them.

Not sure I get the logic that a lack of involvement from other characters helps "evolve" the story?

The other characters are preventing the story from truly moving forward. By dropping those characters or replacing them, the series could then evolve. Meaningful character moments for meaningless characters will only keep the story standing still. Or rather, they won't make the story move forward.