How characters train is as important as how strong the characters are

[super michael]

Just as the topic title says, if a character does creative training or use creative things to get powerful, then both would seem like great writing. We would think wow I can't believe what he did to get powerful that was interesting.

Now DBS we have these below:

Freeza = Beat Tagoma for four months
Krillin = Gym training
Master Roshi = Secret training
Mr Buu = Mr Satan training
C17 = Just protecting Monster Island.

There is nothing interesting with those characters in how they gained those powers. Since their training looks pathetic, we would think they don't deserve those huge power gained that they got. It even makes Goku and Vegeta gain look pathetic, they needed to train with Angels and do ritual, those fight with their pathetic method got to their level.

[Vijay]

Toriyama knew training could only go so far (Android/Cell Arc & pre-Majin Boo to some degree) that he choose Fusion, potential unlocks to keep things interesting.

I agree tbh. But you're talkin abt "creative" training methods here. One look at zeno, belmod & u think "creative" would be the word that comes to ya mind?

Which is why I really like DB & DBZ's training arcs/episodes. So when the characters like Goku, Veggie, Piccolo, Trunks, Gohan display their strength/feats, it seems earned & satisfying tbh

[Skar]

I think Freeza and #17 were the only ones who received a huge powerup from that list. It would've been nice if they had more of an explanation but I guess it's a little late for that now.

Buu's fight was more of a filler gag scene since he returned to being fat after that. In the Moro arc, he awakened his Grand Kaioshin side but it was only enough to stall Moro.

Roshi and Krillin were struggling against Freeza soldiers and weaker than a rusty base Gohan. I think Krillin's episodes during the ToP emphasized how he was much weaker but could contribute based on the tournament rules by blindsiding stronger opponents to knock out of bounds. The beam struggle against SSJB Goku might've made it seem like he was way stronger than intended because in the actual tournament I don't think he found anyone close to that level.

[Cursed Lemon]

Agreed completely.

In DBZ we got to see a lot of the characters pushed to the absolute brink when training. Goku and Vegeta almost killing themselves in the spaceships with the gravity controls, Vegeta's harrowing ordeal to become a super saiyan, Gohan getting smacked around by Goku during the Cell games, Tien/Krillin/Yamcha/Chiaotzu getting a taste of the oncoming Saiyan threat in the ROSAT, etc. These training sessions weren't just gratuitous eye candy, they were struggles and greatly enhanced the sense of sacrifice. I would argue that among the wider DB fanbase, these grueling training sessions were one of the most beloved elements of the story; how many people have you heard say that they channel Goku/Vegeta in the gym, and where do you think that sentiment comes from? Now we don't get that.

Krillin's supernatural training endeavor in Super was a cool side story, I liked that. It didn't explain his herculean power leap but at least it was something with a narrative attached to it.

[Alruneia]

I agree with the main point, except the focus on "creativity" I guess. It's important for the way you make previously established characters relevant again to be narratively satisfying. If you can't provide a satisfying reason for the characters to return to relevancy within the story, it detracts from the story's coherence, its internal logic as perceived by the viewers/readers. At worst it can turn viewers/readers away from your story, because they'll start thinking things like "The author just does whatever (s)he feels like, so why should I care about this fictional universe when (s)he clearly doesn't?"

The issue isn't in how creative the training methods used were or weren't, it's in whether or not the results of those training methods feel appropriate when you take in-universe logic into account. For example, Vegeta's gravity training in "mid-Z" wasn't creative at all, gravity training had already been shown multiple times at that point so it was nothing new, but because of how effective gravity training had been shown to be up to that point, Vegeta's strength increase felt appropriate. It made sense, it was narratively satisfying.

So...
Frieza - Prodigies have always grown strong incredibly fast in Dragon Ball, and Toriyama made sure to establish how much of a prodigy Frieza was and added in that he had never bothered to ever train before. While a lot of info comes out of nowhere with this one, making it pretty jarring, Frieza's power increase does work.
Krillin and Roshi - Well, they're not really all that strong in the first place, relatively speaking. They punch above their weight in the ToP thanks to being good with techniques, but only for a little while. I don't really see any need to imply huge power increases for them.
Buu - Fit Buu was a gag. Don't worry about it.
17 - This one's the big one. It's hard for people to swallow the idea that 17 could be so strong just from his Monster Island ranging job, and I get that. Even with the bonus manga idea of him dealing with Cell Juniors, it's still a lot to take in. And honestly? Yeah, they didn't really do a proper job at explaining this one, it's 100 % fair to feel unsatisfied.

[ABED]

This feels like a post that isn't about narrative as much as it as about the math.

Sure, 17's power gains are silly, but at least he's given something really interesting to do in that final arc. Freeza getting a huge bump after only 4 months is dumb, but that isn't high on my list of reasons why the RoF arc and movie are boring. Bringing him back at all was the fundamental issue.

[MasenkoHA]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

[MyVisionity]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

Not sure how serious this is but clearly there is a vast difference between those two things. One is a solid and meaningful effort at applying sound logic and reasoning to plotting and development. The other is empty and absurd nonsense thrown together in order to justify 17's inclusion.

[MasenkoHA]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

Not sure how serious this is but clearly there is a vast difference between those two things. One is a solid and meaningful effort at applying sound logic and reasoning to plotting and development. The other is empty and absurd nonsense thrown together in order to justify 17's inclusion.

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

[MyVisionity]

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

Gero was a genius, likely surpassing Briefs and Bulma. Just because he knows nothing of the Dragon Balls doesn't make him any less gifted. It just means that Bulma has the advantage in that particular instance.

It's a stretch maybe, but we accept their strength at least in part due to the scientific reasoning that is provided. Yes the narrative requires them to be that strong, but it would never hold up without the logic. Which is why Super loses credibility regarding 17.

[JulieYBM]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

He probably took his vitamins and Estradiol. It's the only thing that explains those femboy-looks!

[ABED]

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

Gero was a genius, likely surpassing Briefs and Bulma. Just because he knows nothing of the Dragon Balls doesn't make him any less gifted. It just means that Bulma has the advantage in that particular instance.

It's a stretch maybe, but we accept their strength at least in part due to the scientific reasoning that is provided. Yes the narrative requires them to be that strong, but it would never hold up without the logic. Which is why Super loses credibility regarding 17.

It's made up science!

[Skar]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

I thought it was already a stretch that Gero was able to build cyborgs that powerful but I guess it's not too different than comic book scientists building a suit or robot who could stand up to some top tier superheroes.

With regular training on his own after the Cell saga he technically outdid everyone in the series. Goku and Vegeta needed various types of intense training and multiple transformations to reach this level. I don't think being a prodigy is enough of an explanation since Gohan and Uub were prodigies and likely more potential than 17 but couldn't get very far on their own. 18 occasionally spared Krillin from what we know but wasn't implied to have gotten any stronger since the Cell Games.

[MyVisionity]

It's made up science!

Which part of it exactly is made up? I never once thought that any of it was made up. Exaggerated for fiction, perhaps, compared to real-world capabilities, but still plausible in the most basic and logical sense.

It doesn't have to line up 100% exactly with the real world. Just enough to make sense and be believable.

[super michael]

If 17 can be a lot stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta from Dr.Gero’s incomplete research on Goku that didn’t go past the Saiyan conflict on earth, I don’t see how him making massive gainz just exercising and drinking plenty of juice and doing plenty of sit ups for 13 years is anymore of a stretch.

Not sure how serious this is but clearly there is a vast difference between those two things. One is a solid and meaningful effort at applying sound logic and reasoning to plotting and development. The other is empty and absurd nonsense thrown together in order to justify 17's inclusion.

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

Dr Gero modified their body with technology that doesn't exist in the real world, heck granting infinity ki/stamina that can't be sensed is a incredible thing. Android and cyborgs that can absorb ki and steal ki is incredible.

Dr Gero had many decades of research on cyborgs and Android. He has data on Saiyan Saga characters, even if that data is outdated.

C17 just doing normal thing is boring in DBS, he doesn't do anything extraordinary. Just protecting an island from humans made him strong, that is weak writing.

Just because Dr Gero never build a Dragon Ball Radar doesn't mean there is nothing that Dr Gero is better at than Bulma.

Future C17 was hunting humans, but he never got any insane gains, what make Present C17 so special with protecting monster island.

[Vijay]

Not sure how serious this is but clearly there is a vast difference between those two things. One is a solid and meaningful effort at applying sound logic and reasoning to plotting and development. The other is empty and absurd nonsense thrown together in order to justify 17's inclusion.

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

Dr Gero modified their body with technology that doesn't exist in the real world, heck granting infinity ki/stamina that can't be sensed is a incredible thing. Android and cyborgs that can absorb ki and steal ki is incredible.

Dr Gero had many decades of research on cyborgs and Android. He has data on Saiyan Saga characters, even if that data is outdated.

C17 just doing normal thing is boring in DBS, he doesn't do anything extraordinary. Just protecting an island from humans made him strong, that is weak writing.

Just because Dr Gero never build a Dragon Ball Radar doesn't mean there is nothing that Dr Gero is better at than Bulma.

Iirc, Bulma repeatedly heaped praises on Gero for his work on 16

Plus the fact dude managed to create frickin radar for RRA itself is remarkable acheivment. Ofc, Bulma is prodigy of Briefs. But no other human managed to create DB radar, and assuming Gero did...thats nothin short of remarkable. To speak nothin of his work on slew of Androids, Cell, spy robots...dang, his hatred for Goku runs deep yo

[super michael]

There’s absolutely nothing sound about either. Gero couldn’t even build a dragon ball radar as precise as Bulma’s. The idea that he stopped studying Goku after his fight with Vegeta on earth and still made Androids 16 -18 far stronger than Freeza in his final form is absolutely absurd even by science fiction standards. We just accept it because the narrative requires them to be that strong for the story to be interesting.

Dr Gero modified their body with technology that doesn't exist in the real world, heck granting infinity ki/stamina that can't be sensed is a incredible thing. Android and cyborgs that can absorb ki and steal ki is incredible.

Dr Gero had many decades of research on cyborgs and Android. He has data on Saiyan Saga characters, even if that data is outdated.

C17 just doing normal thing is boring in DBS, he doesn't do anything extraordinary. Just protecting an island from humans made him strong, that is weak writing.

Just because Dr Gero never build a Dragon Ball Radar doesn't mean there is nothing that Dr Gero is better at than Bulma.

Iirc, Bulma repeatedly heaped praises on Gero for his work on 16

Plus the fact dude managed to create frickin radar for RRA itself is remarkable acheivment. Ofc, Bulma is prodigy of Briefs. But no other human managed to create DB radar, and assuming Gero did...thats nothin short of remarkable. To speak nothin of his work on slew of Androids, Cell, spy robots...dang, his hatred for Goku runs deep yo

Exactly Dr Gero inventions were out of this world, he did so much for the RRA. All those thing you mentioned shows how great Dr Gero.

As for C17 he has done nothing to deserve his gain and the same goes to Freeza. Beating a weakling is not hard training.

[ABED]

Training isn't just a means of exposition. It's also a source of drama and helps build anticipation.

[MasenkoHA]

As for C17 he has done nothing to deserve his gain and the same goes to Freeza. Beating a weakling is not hard training.

By that logic neither deserve to be as strong as they were. 17 got his abilities from Gero’s experimentation and Freeza was naturally gifted. Freeza even admitted to not having to have trained before a day in his life.

[super michael]

As for C17 he has done nothing to deserve his gain and the same goes to Freeza. Beating a weakling is not hard training.

By that logic neither deserve to be as strong as they were. 17 got his abilities from Gero’s experimentation and Freeza was naturally gifted. Freeza even admitted to not having to have trained before a day in his life.

Freeza being gifted is not a problem, heck the four months training isn't the problem. The problem is who he trained with, that is what makes it bad. Tagoma a Zarbon tier fighter, no way Freeza would find that "training" hard or tiring at all. There is no way that push any kind of limit of Freeza.

C17 and C18 were modified by science, they were experimented. There is nothing normal and boring about that. However his job making him SSB isn't good writing.

DBS C17 protects his island from human poachers = SSB tier
Future C17 hunts humans = SSJ tier

C17 and Freeza there is nothing exciting in how they got strong. DB/DBZ had training that felt their powers was earned, this doesn't happen to anyone outside Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan.