Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

The point of the training is making Goku grow more accustomed to ultra instinct, so that when he uses his strongest form the strain on his body isn’t so heavy. More or less the same kind of mastery that Toriyama used in Cell Arc, but with a different method. Still, using ultra instinct in his other forms would prove to be more energy efficient, as he would benefit from its high defense capability even if he isn’t at full power.

Re: Vermoud. There isn’t really any indication that he outperformed Beerus. Actually, Beerus comfortably handled him along with other gods with his pseudo ultra instinct. To each their own. Vermoud basically used a similar strategy that Freeza used in the actual tournament, waiting for the strongest people get tired.

[Koitsukai]

Vermoud can be said to be stronger than Beerus in the anime, Whis implied as much, although in the manga, where Quitela was the one that beat Beerus, they seemed to be on par with each other, with Beerus having fought 11 GoDs at once and Quitela probably just a couple of them, with the implication being that a FP Beerus not fighting literally everybody before, would beat Quitela.

So that's one way to "retcon" Vermoud/Jiren>>Beerus if the anime comes back, giving Beerus' defense of "that doesn't count as a fight" more value.

[KentMan]

The point of the training is making Goku grow more accustomed to ultra instinct, so that when he uses his strongest form the strain on his body isn’t so heavy. More or less the same kind of mastery that Toriyama used in Cell Arc, but with a different method. Still, using ultra instinct in his other forms would prove to be more energy efficient, as he would benefit from its high defense capability even if he isn’t at full power.

Re: Vermoud. There isn’t really any indication that he outperformed Beerus. Actually, Beerus comfortably handled him along with other gods with his pseudo ultra instinct. To each their own. Vermoud basically used a similar strategy that Freeza used in the actual tournament, waiting for the strongest people get tired.

No Whis is implying that he shouldn’t have to transform in the silver haired form. As for Belmod he did outperform Beerus by catching all the destroyers in his sphere. And damaging all of them with his energy cards. No where in the manga did Beerus handle anyone.

[KentMan]

Vermoud can be said to be stronger than Beerus in the anime, Whis implied as much, although in the manga, where Quitela was the one that beat Beerus, they seemed to be on par with each other, with Beerus having fought 11 GoDs at once and Quitela probably just a couple of them, with the implication being that a FP Beerus not fighting literally everybody before, would beat Quitela.

So that's one way to "retcon" Vermoud/Jiren>>Beerus if the anime comes back, giving Beerus' defense of "that doesn't count as a fight" more value.

He didn’t fight all of them at once he only dodged a couple times and got caught by Mosco. Belmod actually caught everyone in his energy sphere and damaged them with his card attack. Plus he was never injured and was shown smiling. Sidra matched Beerus attack with his shield barrier. And as noted Goku Beerus was not holding back. I don’t put much stalk on the anime coming back

[dragonball0900]

We don’t know when Super movie #2 takes place in the history or if it even considers Moro and Granolah Arc events.

Everything considered, I’m still not convinced that Gohan’s ultimate form is in any way comparable to SSB tier. SSGod is also said to rival Gods of Destruction and there is still such a large gap. I would say more like Gohan is SSGod level, possibly above, but not close to SSBlue.

Actually, the movie has Pan as older than she was during the Moro Saga, so we know that it takes places after that. Then again, who knows if the events of the recent manga arcs will be even mentioned.

SSG is in no way rivaling SSB, let alone Gods of Destruction. SSG was only rivaling a suppressed Beerus that was holding back a lot in BoG. It would make much more sense for Gohan to be in the middle area between SSG and SSB, much closer to Blue, but not that close so that his feats against Toppo would still apply.

To add to this, we do have 17 calling Freeza a "monster" in episode 131. It's clear both 17 and Gohan are still decently weaker than Goku/Vegeta/Freeza but still in the rivaling scale.

I have both around 75-80% of those 3.

That's what I'm saying and agreeing as well, actually.

Gohan is clearly not just mere SSG tier. Yeah, he is not equal to SSB in any way either, but he has to be at least approaching to that tier.

75 to 80% actually fits.

[KentMan]

Gokus base sparring with Broly might imply that it’s gotten SSB or beyond tier

[Hugo Boss]

The point of the training is making Goku grow more accustomed to ultra instinct, so that when he uses his strongest form the strain on his body isn’t so heavy. More or less the same kind of mastery that Toriyama used in Cell Arc, but with a different method. Still, using ultra instinct in his other forms would prove to be more energy efficient, as he would benefit from its high defense capability even if he isn’t at full power.

Re: Vermoud. There isn’t really any indication that he outperformed Beerus. Actually, Beerus comfortably handled him along with other gods with his pseudo ultra instinct. To each their own. Vermoud basically used a similar strategy that Freeza used in the actual tournament, waiting for the strongest people get tired.

No Whis is implying that he shouldn’t have to transform in the silver haired form. As for Belmod he did outperform Beerus by catching all the destroyers in his sphere. And damaging all of them with his energy cards. No where in the manga did Beerus handle anyone.

Maybe you should consider rereading the manga, because that’s not what Whis was trying to suggest. The silver form is still needed for accessing the full potential of ultra instinct. He just shouldn’t depend on activating the technique only when he is using the silver form, that’s all. The point is being able to use a fraction of it when he is not transformed, not its entirety. His body wouldn’t be able to sustain ultra instinct full power without the silver form.

Vermoud and pretty much almost all the gods of destruction had a little moment of shine, but after the battle escalated and we lost track of their movements, Beerus and Quitela were the ones that remained and Vermoud was waiting for one of them beat the other as he didn’t have the strength to do so without pretending to be knocked out. He is actually a reminder that strength isn’t everything in a battle field, so he could possibly have won if Great Priest didn’t stop the fight.

[KentMan]

Maybe you should consider rereading the manga, because that’s not what Whis was trying to suggest. The silver form is still needed for accessing the full potential of ultra instinct. He just shouldn’t depend on activating the technique only when he is using the silver form, that’s all. The point is being able to use a fraction of it when he is not transformed, not its entirety. His body wouldn’t be able to sustain ultra instinct full power without the silver form.

Vermoud and pretty much almost all the gods of destruction had a little moment of shine, but after the battle escalated and we lost track of their movements, Beerus and Quitela were the ones that remained and Vermoud was waiting for one of them beat the other as he didn’t have the strength to do so without pretending to be knocked out. He is actually a reminder that strength isn’t everything in a battle field, so he could possibly have won if Great Priest didn’t stop the fight.

I read it how many times and he says that as for the silver haired form or the transformation that accompanies Ultra Instinct. Is to set that aside as a last resort should the battle demand that he surpass his limits. So Goku utilizing UI in base would make him more powerful than he already is.

The Grand Priest made it known that no one is to hold back. And your right we didn’t see who knocked who who damaged who. Except for Rumush and Iwan but that doesn’t mean that Belmod is weaker just because he faked being hurt or unconscious. That’s quite a detail Toyotaro has put that even most people I’ve see so far ignore or straight pass it off as nothing .

[Hugo Boss]

Of course this ability of adding ultra instinct to his normal form would make him more powerful, but not on the same level of the perfected ultra instinct. You brought up initially a comparison with them, which is totally unrelated to what Whis said. That would be a huge power-up and would be certainly be stated if it was the case. Let’s try to not over analyze what Whis said.

Anyway, despite how the fight between the gods of destruction played out, we have an idea of how Vermoud compares to Beerus now because of subtext. I don’t think scrutinizing every single detail about that fight will make any headway in this discussion.

[KentMan]

Of course this ability of adding ultra instinct to his normal form would make him more powerful, but not on the same level of the perfected ultra instinct. You brought up initially a comparison with them, which is totally unrelated to what Whis said. That would be a huge power-up and would be certainly be stated if it was the case. Let’s try to not over analyze what Whis said.

Anyway, despite how the fight between the gods of destruction played out, we have an idea of how Vermoud compares to Beerus now because of subtext. I don’t think scrutinizing every single detail about that fight will make any headway in this discussion.

If his accuracy of UI in base is on par if he was transformed than it would make him in his other forms especially the silver hair stronger than it was before. Goku even says something about this while he was telling Whis that he has to transform to use UI.

We really don’t have any ideas about it. No official statements other than what is shown. To know for certain we will have to see what will play out in the future.

[Hugo Boss]

Ultra instinct’s level of accuracy is not the same when Goku is not transformed. It’s at its peak when Goku activates the silver form and it slowly decreases the more he is in that state. What Whis wants Goku to do is using ultra instinct without the silver form, to conserve energy and to make him less susceptible to dirty tricks. At his current level Goku isn’t capable of using ultra instinct at its fullest without the silver form and we don’t even know if that will be possible for him. The chance of this happening is unlikely as merchandise has a lot of influence in this kind of stuff.

If an official statement is the only thing that will satisfy you about Beerus vs. Vermoud matter, honestly it can’t be helped. I’m done.

[KentMan]

Ultra instinct’s level of accuracy is not the same when Goku is not transformed. It’s at its peak when Goku activates the silver form and it slowly decreases the more he is in that state. What Whis wants Goku to do is using ultra instinct without the silver form, to conserve energy and to make him less susceptible to dirty tricks. At his current level Goku isn’t capable of using ultra instinct at its fullest without the silver form and we don’t even know if that will be possible for him. The chance of this happening is unlikely as merchandise has a lot of influence in this kind of stuff.

If an official statement is the only thing that will satisfy you about Beerus vs. Vermoud matter, honestly it can’t be helped. I’m done.

Not everything is about merchandise and even some fans speculated that if his level of UI in base is on par with the silver haired form. It would mean his base would be much more powerful and his silver haired form upgraded. As for statements I’m surprised no one asked Toyotaro about it.

[Hugo Boss]

Not everything is about merchandise and even some fans speculated that if his level of UI in base is on par with the silver haired form. It would mean his base would be much more powerful and his silver haired form upgraded. As for statements I’m surprised no one asked Toyotaro about it.

I don’t see the point of making his normal form so powerful if he already has so many stronger forms. It would be redundant and serve no purpose for the story. Transformations are a very easy plot device to increase the tension in a battle.

[KentMan]

I don’t see the point of making his normal form so powerful if he already has so many stronger forms. It would be redundant and serve no purpose for the story. Transformations are a very easy plot device to increase the tension in a battle.

It goes back to Uub who’s power in Moro was higher than the Z fighters. And it was enough to get Goku back to UI. That tells you how big and powerful the silver haired is compared to Gokus blue form. And with that info it implies that at the End Of Z his base form is a lot stronger than it seems

[Hugo Boss]

We will see, but against Moro, Oob’s power was only drawn out by the Great Supreme Kai. Oob still needed training to be able to drawn out that divine power on his own. That’s not to say the base form can’t be that strong, but based on Goku vs. Oob, you can’t make conclusions yet. Neither of them were at full power.

[Thani]

We will see, but against Moro, Oob’s power was only drawn out by the Great Supreme Kai. Oob still needed training to be able to drawn out that divine power on his own. That’s not to say the base form can’t be that strong, but based on Goku vs. Oob, you can’t make conclusions yet. Neither of them were at full power.

I mean, there was nothing to suggest that Uub was using the full power of Kid Buu against Goku. Let alone Kid Buu + Dai Kaioshin.

Considering it was made after the Buu Saga, with no suggestion otherwise, Goku in Base wouldn't be any stronger than he already were. With Uub just beginning to tap into his true power after getting angry (and being a normal earthling before that), Goku handling him for a while in his normal form is not unreal.

With Super? Maybe it'll be retconned, maybe it got like that precisely to explain why Uub is still relevant. We'll see.

As for the Godly Battle Royale, I agree. Belmod faking defeat could just be part of his personality - he's shown to constantly take advantages where he can get it, but was also shown to be powerful in his own right, so it can be just his strategy to win with smarts. Because it suits him better. Not that he can't be the weakest GoD in raw power, don't get me wrong.

Tori and Toyo basically retconned the whole thing unnecessarily, imo. Both by having Moro being described as "OmG tHe StRoNgEsT eVaH!1!" after getting trashed by Goku and before getting even stronger thanks to UI, and then still being substantially below Beerus (as the narrative seemed to imply, especially with the next arc, with even stronger characters being still below Beerus). When, in reality, they could have just written them to be all in the same ballpark of power, the difference being mostly in technniques and specific powers.

Moro didn't need to be a powerhouse like Jiren to be a huge threat - his magic could have done it well enough. Hell, he could beat even Broly, even if he were to be weaker, by his sheer powerset. The same would apply to Granolah and Gas, they could be as strong as Beerus/UI Goku/GoD's in general, but still be extremely dangerous by the mere fact that their wish granted them all sorts of assorted technniques that makes them a beast to face in battle.

But DB is a numbers game, unfortunately.

[KentMan]

We will see, but against Moro, Oob’s power was only drawn out by the Great Supreme Kai. Oob still needed training to be able to drawn out that divine power on his own. That’s not to say the base form can’t be that strong, but based on Goku vs. Oob, you can’t make conclusions yet. Neither of them were at full power.

I mean, there was nothing to suggest that Uub was using the full power of Kid Buu against Goku. Let alone Kid Buu + Dai Kaioshin.

Considering it was made after the Buu Saga, with no suggestion otherwise, Goku in Base wouldn't be any stronger than he already were. With Uub just beginning to tap into his true power after getting angry (and being a normal earthling before that), Goku handling him for a while in his normal form is not unreal.

With Super? Maybe it'll be retconned, maybe it got like that precisely to explain why Uub is still relevant. We'll see.

As for the Godly Battle Royale, I agree. Belmod faking defeat could just be part of his personality - he's shown to constantly take advantages where he can get it, but was also shown to be powerful in his own right, so it can be just his strategy to win with smarts. Because it suits him better. Not that he can't be the weakest GoD in raw power, don't get me wrong.

Tori and Toyo basically retconned the whole thing unnecessarily, imo. Both by having Moro being described as "OmG tHe StRoNgEsT eVaH!1!" after getting trashed by Goku and before getting even stronger thanks to UI, and then still being substantially below Beerus (as the narrative seemed to imply, especially with the next arc, with even stronger characters being still below Beerus). When, in reality, they could have just written them to be all in the same ballpark of power, the difference being mostly in technniques and specific powers.

Moro didn't need to be a powerhouse like Jiren to be a huge threat - his magic could have done it well enough. Hell, he could beat even Broly, even if he were to be weaker, by his sheer powerset. The same would apply to Granolah and Gas, they could be as strong as Beerus/UI Goku/GoD's in general, but still be extremely dangerous by the mere fact that their wish granted them all sorts of assorted technniques that makes them a beast to face in battle.

But DB is a numbers game, unfortunately.

Nothing has implied that Beerus is above Belmod Jiren Broly Granolah and Gas. Moro is a mystery and weird one.

[Thani]

But if Moro is recognized by Goku has the strongest/toughest he faced, then he's stronger/tougher than Jiren and, therefore, Belmod.

[ZombieVito]

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

[Koitsukai]

So, Shimorekka easily killed several Pui Pui-like characters, perhaps even stronger than Pui Pui because they were guarding the royal's family treasure. Pui Pui could be some crazy freak of nature, but who knows or cares? Piccolo also grabbed his arm and 7-3 had to intervene.

Would be fair to place Shimorekka above or equal to Buu arc base Vegeta? that would still make Shimorekka stronger than the Ginyu Force. Of course, after getting power from Moro.

The level of the powered-up Moro's henchmen then would be around base Buu arc saiyans? I'm also taking into account Trunks would beat Saganbo, even though Saganbo hit SS3 Goku, so clearly Goku's power was dropping fast, because Kid Trunks cannot beat SS3... unless Geets meant Future Trunks