How characters train is as important as how strong the characters are

[90sDBZ]

Aren't most of the big conflict resolutions of the entire series asspull duex ex machinas/last second powerup into curbstomb??

Not really.

Goku beat Piccolo because he trained hard for 3 years and mastered flight.

Vegeta was beaten by a number of factors including; teamwork, Yajirobe's brief bravery, the Spirit Bomb which Goku trained to master, and Gohan's Ape form which was long established as a thing.

Super Saiyan beating Frieza was forshadowed for an entire arc, and Krillin's death was a believable trigger for it. In no way was it an asspull.

Gohan had been repeatedly shown to have enourmous potential throughout Z, and rage induced powerups were common for him. Training in the Time Chamber for a year and achieving SS1 was always going to make him even more of a beast. Him going SS2 and and beating Cell felt like payoff for all of that.

I will say the Time Chamber itself was sort of an asspull, as you have to wonder why it wasn't used during the 3 years prior to the Androids. Still it's a cool idea. The concept of someone training under hellish conditions for a year in isolation is badass, and in keeping with the theme of the story.

Buu being beat by the Spirit Bomb was given solid buildup, and required everyone to do their bit. It could have gone horribly wrong at any time, but they pulled it off through teamwork.

[Anonymous Friend]

Aren't most of the big conflict resolutions of the entire series asspull duex ex machinas/last second powerup into curbstomb??

Not really.

Goku beat Piccolo because he trained hard for 3 years and mastered flight.

Vegeta was beaten by a number of factors including; teamwork, Yajirobe's brief bravery, the Spirit Bomb which Goku trained to master, and Gohan's Ape form which was long established as a thing.

Super Saiyan beating Frieza was forshadowed for an entire arc, and Krillin's death was a believable trigger for it. In no way was it an asspull.

Gohan had been repeatedly shown to have enourmous potential throughout Z, and rage induced powerups were common for him. Training in the Time Chamber for a year and achieving SS1 was always going to make him even more of a beast. Him going SS2 and and beating Cell felt like payoff for all of that.

I will say the Time Chamber itself was sort of an asspull, as you have to wonder why it wasn't used during the 3 years prior to the Androids. Still it's a cool idea. The concept of someone training under hellish conditions for a year in isolation is badass, and in keeping with the theme of the story.

Buu being beat by the Spirit Bomb was given solid buildup, and required everyone to do their bit. It could have gone horribly wrong at any time, but they pulled it off through teamwork.

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups. No one knew they were coming. No amount of "foreshadowing" or "we know he had it in him all along" can change that. Especially when the characters themselves were surprised when it happened. Buu was a literal Dues ex Machina as even with the Spirit Bomb, Goku was losing and they had t wish his energy back.

I'll give you that it's less than most happening. But at this point in the series, no one is expecting anyone to with with the power they start out with, or any sort of stretegic maneuver.

[MasenkoHA]

Aren't most of the big conflict resolutions of the entire series asspull duex ex machinas/last second powerup into curbstomb??

Not really.

Goku beat Piccolo because he trained hard for 3 years and mastered flight.

Vegeta was beaten by a number of factors including; teamwork, Yajirobe's brief bravery, the Spirit Bomb which Goku trained to master, and Gohan's Ape form which was long established as a thing.

Super Saiyan beating Frieza was forshadowed for an entire arc, and Krillin's death was a believable trigger for it. In no way was it an asspull.

Gohan had been repeatedly shown to have enourmous potential throughout Z, and rage induced powerups were common for him. Training in the Time Chamber for a year and achieving SS1 was always going to make him even more of a beast. Him going SS2 and and beating Cell felt like payoff for all of that.

I will say the Time Chamber itself was sort of an asspull, as you have to wonder why it wasn't used during the 3 years prior to the Androids. Still it's a cool idea. The concept of someone training under hellish conditions for a year in isolation is badass, and in keeping with the theme of the story.

Buu being beat by the Spirit Bomb was given solid buildup, and required everyone to do their bit. It could have gone horribly wrong at any time, but they pulled it off through teamwork.

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups. No one knew they were coming. No amount of "foreshadowing" or "we know he had it in him all along" can change that. Especially when the characters themselves were surprised when it happened.

No they weren’t last second power ups. What even are words?

Vegeta mentioned Super Saiyans in his first appearance and, you may have noticed, wouldn’t shut the fuck up about in the Freeza saga. The arc was all but screaming in your face “Goku is going to be the Super Saiyan of legend!!!” so blatant was this development Toei released a movie during the summer holiday called “Super Saiyan Son Goku” before the proper transformation happened in the manga as if to tell the audience “Let’s not kid ourselves we know what’s gonna happen”

Super Saiyan 2 also wasn’t a last second power up because the characters brought up the idea of a form beyond Super Saiyan well before it happen. And while Gohan’s last minute inclusion as the Ultimate Hero of that story was pretty left field the whole idea he had hidden reserves of power built in by his anger was a core part of his character from day one.

Buu was a literal Dues ex Machina as even with the Spirit Bomb, Goku was losing and they had t wish his energy back.

That’s. Not. What. A. Deus ex Machina. Is. *facepalm*

[Anonymous Friend]

Not really.

Goku beat Piccolo because he trained hard for 3 years and mastered flight.

Vegeta was beaten by a number of factors including; teamwork, Yajirobe's brief bravery, the Spirit Bomb which Goku trained to master, and Gohan's Ape form which was long established as a thing.

Super Saiyan beating Frieza was forshadowed for an entire arc, and Krillin's death was a believable trigger for it. In no way was it an asspull.

Gohan had been repeatedly shown to have enourmous potential throughout Z, and rage induced powerups were common for him. Training in the Time Chamber for a year and achieving SS1 was always going to make him even more of a beast. Him going SS2 and and beating Cell felt like payoff for all of that.

I will say the Time Chamber itself was sort of an asspull, as you have to wonder why it wasn't used during the 3 years prior to the Androids. Still it's a cool idea. The concept of someone training under hellish conditions for a year in isolation is badass, and in keeping with the theme of the story.

Buu being beat by the Spirit Bomb was given solid buildup, and required everyone to do their bit. It could have gone horribly wrong at any time, but they pulled it off through teamwork.

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups. No one knew they were coming. No amount of "foreshadowing" or "we know he had it in him all along" can change that. Especially when the characters themselves were surprised when it happened.

No they weren’t last second power ups. What even are words?

Vegeta mentioned Super Saiyans in his first appearance and, you may have noticed, wouldn’t shut the fuck up about in the Freeza saga. The arc was all but screaming in your face “Goku is going to be the Super Saiyan of legend!!!” so blatant was this development Toei released a movie during the summer holiday called “Super Saiyan Son Goku” before the proper transformation happened in the manga as if to tell the audience “Let’s not kid ourselves we know what’s gonna happen”

Super Saiyan 2 also wasn’t a last second power up because the characters brought up the idea of a form beyond Super Saiyan well before it happen. And while Gohan’s last minute inclusion as the Ultimate Hero of that story was pretty left field the whole idea he had hidden reserves of power built in by his anger was a core part of his character from day one.

Buu was a literal Dues ex Machina as even with the Spirit Bomb, Goku was losing and they had t wish his energy back.

That’s. Not. What. A. Deus ex Machina. Is. *facepalm*

Did Goku expect himself to get the powerup he got? Up until the point his hair turned blond and his power rose, goku thought they were screwed. Especially after the spirit bomb failed and Freeza started dropping his friends. Vegeta was the only one expecting a super saiyan and he didn't even know what that would be like or even if it actually existed. Goku damn well did not know what to expect and we've all just assume this is what the super saiyan is supposed to be.

Goku expected Gohan to do what he always did: Get angry and display a rise in power, and hope it's enough to take out Cell. He was not expecting the level of power, nor Gohan not needing to be in a blind rage.

And, a god literaly had to use his wish granted machine to restore Goku back to 100%

[super michael]

Here is one that was handled bad and that character is Future Trunks.

Future Trunks SSJ2 is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, therefore he is way weaker than SSG and SSB Goku.

Future Trunks with 1 training session with Vegeta and some rage he becomes as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta. Future Trunks even performs better than these two.

No training with experts, since all the Z fighters are dead. No training in the ROSAT, learning God Ki or SSG but just 1 training session with Vegeta and rage.

When it comes to characters other than Goku and Vegeta it is just lame their training.

[Zephyr]

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups.

I'm not sure I'd call these "last second".

Goku and Freeza's fight ran from chapter 308 to 327, with the transformation happening practically at the mid-point, in chapter 317.

Gohan and Cell's fight ran from chapter 403 to 416, with the transformation happening only a few chapters in, at chapter 407.

Over 50% of both fights were post-transformation.

The point about "no foreshadowing" seems odd. As said, Super Saiyan is mentioned all throughout Namek, and Goku is speculated to be one as soon as Vegeta sees him fighting the Ginyus. Surpassing Super Saiyan is a major theme for the back half of the Cell arc.

And while Gohan’s last minute inclusion as the Ultimate Hero of that story was pretty left field the whole idea he had hidden reserves of power built in by his anger was a core part of his character from day one.

And even the idea that Gohan would be the one to ultimately face off with Cell isn't as out of left field as it's often made to be; Perfect Cell and Super Saiyan Gohan "debut" one page after the other.

[Anonymous Friend]

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups.

I'm not sure I'd call these "last second".

Last second in the sense that they were both about done with their fights because the villains were clearly stronger.

[MasenkoHA]

SSJ1 and SSJ2 were indeed last second powerups.

I'm not sure I'd call these "last second".

Last second in the sense that they were both about done with their fights because the villains were clearly stronger.

That’s not last second

[ABED]

And even the idea that Gohan would be the one to ultimately face off with Cell isn't as out of left field as it's often made to be; Perfect Cell and Super Saiyan Gohan "debut" one page after the other.

That's certainly a parallel but there's no real emotional connection between them. Their face off feels hollow.

[super michael]

In DB the humans did the same training as Goku, therefore we knew the humans did hard and effective training. In DBZ the humans did the same training as Goku, that is until Namek Saga. Then from the Android Saga onwards the humans started to refuse to train like Goku and even refused to train with Goku, Gohan and Piccolo.

Tenshinhan in the Cell Saga refused to train in the ROSAT.

However in DBS lazy boring training somehow = huge power gain. That is lazy writing. They humans didn't do anything hard at all.

How can anyone say Krillin deserve his huge power boost by training in a gym? That is inferior compared to Master Roshi training schedule.

[super michael]

Here is an example Krillin with Master Roshi training, which is harder and smart training he only gains in the 2 or 3 digit power level gains like 10 or 100.

Krillin doing generic boring gym training he gains in the 7 digit number like 1,000,000.

Basically DBS if the writer wish they can make a character gain millions just by doing push up and nothing else.

[Lukmendes]

Sometimes training in DB did give characters bullshit, nonsensical power ups.

Goku training under Kami and Popo for 3 years made him be only slightly stronger than Piccolo, meanwhile, Krillin, Yamcha and Tien training under Kami for 6 months, then doing the training on their own for a few more months put them all around Raditz's level.

There's also Gohan training under Goku and Piccolo for 3 years and nothing big happened with him, then he trains with Goku for an year in ROSAT and outclasses everyone.

And then there's hilariously inconsistent power ups coming out of Toriyama's ass, like Korin's poisoned water, and the even worse one, Zenkai, which's literally the "Make the character as strong as he has to", considering how the power ups are random, and were overused so much in Namek.

At the very least, there were power ups that work better, and in particular I like the reasoning given to why Goku outclassed Vegeta so bad in ROSAT, despite Vegeta training even more than Goku, but unfortunately, random nonsensical power ups were always around, and as Super showed, they're not leaving, so I dunno, maybe we'll have Gero returning and he'll be stronger than Beerus because he polished his glass head slightly harder than usual that one time lol.

[Koitsukai]

Here is an example Krillin with Master Roshi training, which is harder and smart training he only gains in the 2 or 3 digit power level gains like 10 or 100.

Krillin doing generic boring gym training he gains in the 7 digit number like 1,000,000.

Basically DBS if the writer wish they can make a character gain millions just by doing push up and nothing else.

To be fair, Krilin's gains post-Namek are after his potential was unlocked, so he should be getting more out of his work-outs. Although, I don't remember Krilin hitting the gym and reaching the millions. When was that?

[super michael]

Here is an example Krillin with Master Roshi training, which is harder and smart training he only gains in the 2 or 3 digit power level gains like 10 or 100.

Krillin doing generic boring gym training he gains in the 7 digit number like 1,000,000.

Basically DBS if the writer wish they can make a character gain millions just by doing push up and nothing else.

To be fair, Krilin's gains post-Namek are after his potential was unlocked, so he should be getting more out of his work-outs. Although, I don't remember Krilin hitting the gym and reaching the millions. When was that?

In DBS there was no number he gained, that was an example. However in DBS Krillin gave Goku trouble, he even gave trouble when Goku turned SSJ1. Krillin was even able to push back Goku SSB Kamehameha.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't do anything to the weaker Base Copy Vegeta, his ki attack and melee attack were useless. Yet Krillin attacks had effects.

Lets not forget after Cell defeat Krillin stopped training, which is why he let his hair grow out.

[Koitsukai]

Here is an example Krillin with Master Roshi training, which is harder and smart training he only gains in the 2 or 3 digit power level gains like 10 or 100.

Krillin doing generic boring gym training he gains in the 7 digit number like 1,000,000.

Basically DBS if the writer wish they can make a character gain millions just by doing push up and nothing else.

To be fair, Krilin's gains post-Namek are after his potential was unlocked, so he should be getting more out of his work-outs. Although, I don't remember Krilin hitting the gym and reaching the millions. When was that?

In DBS there was no number he gained, that was an example. However in DBS Krillin gave Goku trouble, he even gave trouble when Goku turned SSJ1. Krillin was even able to push back Goku SSB Kamehameha.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't do anything to the weaker Base Copy Vegeta, his ki attack and melee attack were useless. Yet Krillin attacks had effects.

Lets not forget after Cell defeat Krillin stopped training, which is why he let his hair grow out.

So, it's just another inconsequential filler episode written by Toei. Don't worry, The Krilin featured in Toriyama's Super Hero will have no recollection of that ever happening.

Besides, it wasn't as straightforward.
Krilin's techniques have always been pretty tough, he cut Freeza's tail and Goku almost rings out Jiren with it. He is also a smart fighter, and sure knows his opponent, he had a strategy planned, then executed it perfectly making base and SS Goku, given that of course he is not fighting for his life, get played badly. Brains over (suppressed) brawn in this case.
Goku goes blue, in the anime he has extreme ki control in this form, being able to place KK on top of it as well as lowering it down enough for Krilin to struggle and not get immediately erased. Once Goku gets the power right, Krilin is not pushing anything back.

It's basically 1980s Schwarzenegger spotting Rick Moranis on a bench press with 500kg on each side, trying to get him to not sell his defeat short, to test his spirit.

[Cipher]

I think it's worth pointing out that in two of three versions of Super/modern DB, we never hear a peep about what kind of training Freeza does, and while I think there was a huge missed opportunity for an "evil" martial-arts journey montage, that's probably for the best.

[BWri]

I think it's worth pointing out that in two of three versions of Super/modern DB, we never hear a peep about what kind of training Freeza does, and while I think there was a huge missed opportunity for an "evil" martial-arts journey montage, that's probably for the best.

I think all most of us really wanted was for Frieza to go to some planet with insane gravity (maybe his home planet) and just throw some punches and kicks and move some big stuff with his mind. Something simple ... really, just something. Chucking low powered Death Beams at Tagoma is nothing.