Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

So, Shimorekka easily killed several Pui Pui-like characters, perhaps even stronger than Pui Pui because they were guarding the royal's family treasure. Pui Pui could be some crazy freak of nature, but who knows or cares? Piccolo also grabbed his arm and 7-3 had to intervene.

Would be fair to place Shimorekka above or equal to Buu arc base Vegeta? that would still make Shimorekka stronger than the Ginyu Force. Of course, after getting power from Moro.

The level of the powered-up Moro's henchmen then would be around base Buu arc saiyans? I'm also taking into account Trunks would beat Saganbo, even though Saganbo hit SS3 Goku, so clearly Goku's power was dropping fast, because Kid Trunks cannot beat SS3... unless Geets meant Future Trunks

It really was that. Goku dropped to SS3, and thus was surprised enough that Saganbo could get a clean hit on him. The punch itself didn't hurt Goku iirc, but because he was shocked it was enough to send him flying.

Remember that Trunks in the Buu Arc managed to send Fat Buu flying with a kick, despite Fat Buu being clearly on the same ballpark as SS3 Goku. Because Buu wasn't paying attention.

[Hugo Boss]

Moro’s underlings could probably prove to be quite strong in relation to Base Saiyans, after being buffed up by Moro. They had a lot of confidence on Yuzun (Zarbon type warrior) against Vegeta, but Vegeta’s huge power-up was perhaps the deciding factor in their fight. Perhaps he couldn’t beat Yuzun without spirit control training just with his normal form.

[picc]

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

I would guess AT and Toyo would give the moving goalpost treatment to the other GoD's if they are part of future stories too.

Everyone is just as strong as they want them to be at the time. They'd probably retcon Belmod as near Beerus (and thus above MUI/UE/Jiren/etc.) and not think about it for a second.

[Thani]

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

I would guess AT and Toyo would give the moving goalpost treatment to the other GoD's if they are part of future stories too.

Everyone is just as strong as they want them to be at the time. They'd probably retcon Belmod as near Beerus (and thus above MUI/UE/Jiren/etc.) and not think about it for a second.

That is... probably correct. Or even better, retcon Jiren and reinforce "wow he really was the strongest we fought huh?". Now that would be hilarious.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, Shimorekka easily killed several Pui Pui-like characters, perhaps even stronger than Pui Pui because they were guarding the royal's family treasure. Pui Pui could be some crazy freak of nature, but who knows or cares? Piccolo also grabbed his arm and 7-3 had to intervene.

Would be fair to place Shimorekka above or equal to Buu arc base Vegeta? that would still make Shimorekka stronger than the Ginyu Force. Of course, after getting power from Moro.

The level of the powered-up Moro's henchmen then would be around base Buu arc saiyans? I'm also taking into account Trunks would beat Saganbo, even though Saganbo hit SS3 Goku, so clearly Goku's power was dropping fast, because Kid Trunks cannot beat SS3... unless Geets meant Future Trunks

Pui Pui might stronger than those scrubs. Don't forget he always unlocks the dormant power of his soldiers.

I like to keep the pattern that, a handful of exceptions aside, Freeza was the strongest in the universe. So before Moro's power up, I doubt even Saganbo was 1st form Freeza level initially.

With the power up though, Saganbo is waaay above Boo Saga Base Saiyans. We saw him punch down SSJ3 Goku. Goku even reverted back to base, and it wasn't because of absorptions because he'd have reverted to SSJ2 if it was. Boo Saga SSJ3 Goku would've been obliterated by that punch. Seven-Three is a bit tough since he caught Piccolo off guard, but Jaco did say he was a pretty strong guy. Maybe he'd have given Piccolo a bit of a fight without copying his powers.

Anyone else is a guess though. Shimorekka looks like he's fighting evenly with Jaco at one point, but he might as well have just been bullying him. He did take punches from 18, after all.

Tenshinhan is also pretty surprised Goku one shot that Zaiyuogi when he arrived, so the high tiers of the Galactic Brigade (i.e. the named characters) are at least > Early Moro Saga Base I'd say.

[KentMan]

But if Moro is recognized by Goku has the strongest/toughest he faced, then he's stronger/tougher than Jiren and, therefore, Belmod.

That’s head canon right there because it’s dubious as what Goku means. Plus herms while discussing this on Reddit confused anime Jiren and Manga Jiren as the same. That’s why i stuck with his twitter opinion on the matter. If you put Goku above Belmod and Jiren than you’re putting him above Beerus.

[KentMan]

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

Again this is headcanon nothing suggest that Belmod is weaker than Beerus. And Goku and Beerus for whatever reason is ambiguous because of assumptions.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Again this is headcanon nothing suggest that Belmod is weaker than Beerus. And Goku and Beerus for whatever reason is ambiguous because of assumptions.

The competition of two strongest is between Beerus and Quitela. Belmond almost got himself and 4 other gods killed by Beerus and then he had to hide when his special attack failed to hurt anyone.

Belmond is literally the only god who’s confirmed to have been surpassed. Maybe not by much, but UI Goku humiliated Jiren and he’s above Belmond.

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

I think Toriyama and Toyotaro actually gave us a pretty subtle explanation in this saga.

Ultra Ego is a Hakaishin ability. We might think of it as a Saiyan power with the “getting stronger as you fight” and all, but Trunks said Goku and Vegeta couldn’t get zenkais anymore in the Goku Black Saga. Vegeta literally came up with Ultra Ego from Beerus’ lessons, and Beerus even said that his power has no limits. Considering how he’s always the strongest, he might as well have been serious about it.

[Koitsukai]

Pui Pui might stronger than those scrubs. Don't forget he always unlocks the dormant power of his soldiers.

I like to keep the pattern that, a handful of exceptions aside, Freeza was the strongest in the universe. So before Moro's power up, I doubt even Saganbo was 1st form Freeza level initially.

Oh yes, yes, I completely forgot about that, thanks. He should be above those soldiers, but not that much above them, though.

With the power up though, Saganbo is waaay above Boo Saga Base Saiyans. We saw him punch down SSJ3 Goku. Goku even reverted back to base, and it wasn't because of absorptions because he'd have reverted to SSJ2 if it was. Boo Saga SSJ3 Goku would've been obliterated by that punch. Seven-Three is a bit tough since he caught Piccolo off guard, but Jaco did say he was a pretty strong guy. Maybe he'd have given Piccolo a bit of a fight without copying his powers.

This one I'm not so sure. At the very same time, Vegeta went from SSG to base, he skipped the SS forms too, without taking any damage whatsoever, so I think the downgrade was more about the drainage getting stronger, accelerating, or getting to the point where they need to exert themselves even more to be SS, rather than a result of what they were enduring.

-- About Jiren and UI Goku, the power Jiren unlocked to fight him back was a new one, his extra effort, so the power Goku was trashing was one above Vermouth's. Worst case scenario, it wasn't new and that power also was responsible for putting Vermouth down.
ToP UI Goku > Vermouth, there's no way around that.

[Hugo Boss]

Besides, Jiren was only able to endure a fight against perfect ultra instinct because Goku didn’t have enough training to sustain it. As Jiren exerted himself, Goku was losing gas very quickly. It was a battle of attrition. Jiren left that match with too much damage and was having trouble with Base Saiyans. There is no way he would manage to last so much against Moro Arc Goku at his full power. The way Jiren was in ToP is totally irrelevant to Goku now, unless he kept his training. Broly too, Whis doesn’t even acknowledge him as a possible contender to #1 U7 warrior, but he is expecting someone else to claim that position other than Goku and Vegeta. This is also connected to Toronbo’s powers. Easy-peasy to understand. There is no need overcomplicate and scrutinize every single Herms’ comment or piece of dialogue just because you lack resilience to change an opinion.

[picc]

Ultra Ego still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Haikashin ability though. Yes Vegeta had GoD chi and gets stronger as he takes damage, but that's never been something the GoD's have displayed any interest whatsoever in doing.

In the battle royale, Beerus was dodging everyone. The other GoD's were dodging each other. In every fight Beerus has ever had, he's taken every measure to avoid even a fraction of damage. There's literally no precedent for GoD's to intentionally take damage or to get stronger from taking damage. Hell, in UE Vegeta's fight with Granolah, Granolah was the only one to use destruction! So just what the hell exactly is UE?? Just a powerup thats only narratively related to the GoD's?

I believe Beerus' line about his power being unlimited due to always thinking about destruction, because that's simply the meta of the manga according to the writers.

But I would have liked to get some clarification on exactly what UE is, what it's really called (cause its definitely not UE), and how exactly it relates to GoD power, instead of two straight months of fighting between one character I barely care about at all, and one character I don't give any shits about.

[picc]

With how Beerus is still being described as stronger than UI Goku even after the Moro arc, I'm starting to think Belmod isn't even 10% as strong as him.

The people we have to sandwich in between them is getting higher as time goes.

I would guess AT and Toyo would give the moving goalpost treatment to the other GoD's if they are part of future stories too.

Everyone is just as strong as they want them to be at the time. They'd probably retcon Belmod as near Beerus (and thus above MUI/UE/Jiren/etc.) and not think about it for a second.

That is... probably correct. Or even better, retcon Jiren and reinforce "wow he really was the strongest we fought huh?". Now that would be hilarious.

By now, narratively, Goku and Vegeta are miles ahead of most of the GoD's from the tournament of power. Like, they should easily and instantly crush them.

But we all know that's not what would happen.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure I'm mad at it.

[Thani]

Ultra Ego still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Haikashin ability though. Yes Vegeta had GoD chi and gets stronger as he takes damage, but that's never been something the GoD's have displayed any interest whatsoever in doing.

In the battle royale, Beerus was dodging everyone. The other GoD's were dodging each other. In every fight Beerus has ever had, he's taken every measure to avoid even a fraction of damage. There's literally no precedent for GoD's to intentionally take damage or to get stronger from taking damage. Hell, in UE Vegeta's fight with Granolah, Granolah was the only one to use destruction! So just what the hell exactly is UE?? Just a powerup thats only narratively related to the GoD's?

I believe Beerus' line about his power being unlimited due to always thinking about destruction, because that's simply the meta of the manga according to the writers.

But I would have liked to get some clarification on exactly what UE is, what it's really called (cause its definitely not UE), and how exactly it relates to GoD power, instead of two straight months of fighting between one character I barely care about at all, and one character I don't give any shits about.

Well, UE Vegeta did try using a Sphere of Destruction against Granolah, so there's Destruction.

As far as I can tell, UE is something "unique" to Vegeta, but it's still rooted in God of Destruction power - since Vegeta thought to himself that, in the end, the power of God of Destruction was still too much for a "novice" like him.

I would guess AT and Toyo would give the moving goalpost treatment to the other GoD's if they are part of future stories too.

Everyone is just as strong as they want them to be at the time. They'd probably retcon Belmod as near Beerus (and thus above MUI/UE/Jiren/etc.) and not think about it for a second.

That is... probably correct. Or even better, retcon Jiren and reinforce "wow he really was the strongest we fought huh?". Now that would be hilarious.

By now, narratively, Goku and Vegeta are miles ahead of most of the GoD's from the tournament of power. Like, they should easily and instantly crush them.

But we all know that's not what would happen.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure I'm mad at it.

Yup. At this point, if GoD's are to still be relevant (and the narrative so far seems to want us to think that, not just with Beerus) then they need to still be comparable to Beerus. This means that either Goku and Vegeta actually haven't moved as drastically as people think in the power totem or that the Gods in general are all still beyond their capability of fighting.

[KentMan]

Again this is headcanon nothing suggest that Belmod is weaker than Beerus. And Goku and Beerus for whatever reason is ambiguous because of assumptions.

The competition of two strongest is between Beerus and Quitela. Belmond almost got himself and 4 other gods killed by Beerus and then he had to hide when his special attack failed to hurt anyone.

Belmond is literally the only god who’s confirmed to have been surpassed. Maybe not by much, but UI Goku humiliated Jiren and he’s above Belmond.

I love how you ignore that Sidra matched Beerus with his barrier. And his special attack as you say didn’t fail to hurt anyone. Yes Belmod was surpassed by Jiren not Beerus and UI Goku in the manga never beat Jiren.

[KentMan]

Besides, Jiren was only able to endure a fight against perfect ultra instinct because Goku didn’t have enough training to sustain it. As Jiren exerted himself, Goku was losing gas very quickly. It was a battle of attrition. Jiren left that match with too much damage and was having trouble with Base Saiyans. There is no way he would manage to last so much against Moro Arc Goku at his full power. The way Jiren was in ToP is totally irrelevant to Goku now, unless he kept his training. Broly too, Whis doesn’t even acknowledge him as a possible contender to #1 U7 warrior, but he is expecting someone else to claim that position other than Goku and Vegeta. This is also connected to Toronbo’s powers. Easy-peasy to understand. There is no need overcomplicate and scrutinize every single Herms’ comment or piece of dialogue just because you lack resilience to change an opinion.

If I had never looked at this thread completely I would never noticed you talking to me. Jiren didn’t go completely all out on Goku. He still had power reserves and since you’re saying he would be no match for Goku than Beerus would also be no match for a Goku either. I just told you the dragon rings out ones potential and whether or not it makes them stronger than say Beerus depends on them.

[picc]

Ultra Ego still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Haikashin ability though. Yes Vegeta had GoD chi and gets stronger as he takes damage, but that's never been something the GoD's have displayed any interest whatsoever in doing.

In the battle royale, Beerus was dodging everyone. The other GoD's were dodging each other. In every fight Beerus has ever had, he's taken every measure to avoid even a fraction of damage. There's literally no precedent for GoD's to intentionally take damage or to get stronger from taking damage. Hell, in UE Vegeta's fight with Granolah, Granolah was the only one to use destruction! So just what the hell exactly is UE?? Just a powerup thats only narratively related to the GoD's?

I believe Beerus' line about his power being unlimited due to always thinking about destruction, because that's simply the meta of the manga according to the writers.

But I would have liked to get some clarification on exactly what UE is, what it's really called (cause its definitely not UE), and how exactly it relates to GoD power, instead of two straight months of fighting between one character I barely care about at all, and one character I don't give any shits about.

Well, UE Vegeta did try using a Sphere of Destruction against Granolah, so there's Destruction.

As far as I can tell, UE is something "unique" to Vegeta, but it's still rooted in God of Destruction power - since Vegeta thought to himself that, in the end, the power of God of Destruction was still too much for a "novice" like him.

That is... probably correct. Or even better, retcon Jiren and reinforce "wow he really was the strongest we fought huh?". Now that would be hilarious.

By now, narratively, Goku and Vegeta are miles ahead of most of the GoD's from the tournament of power. Like, they should easily and instantly crush them.

But we all know that's not what would happen.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure I'm mad at it.

Yup. At this point, if GoD's are to still be relevant (and the narrative so far seems to want us to think that, not just with Beerus) then they need to still be comparable to Beerus. This means that either Goku and Vegeta actually haven't moved as drastically as people think in the power totem or that the Gods in general are all still beyond their capability of fighting.

You're right, RE: Vegeta using destruction. I guess I would have just expected it to be a more prominent part of his arsenal considering how big a deal it was that he now had GoD ki. Instead it was kind of a kamikaze hail mary last resort. Just seems like more could have been done to tie his UE form into actual god of destruction territory. I found it lacking in that aspect, but its okay if its just me.

It does seem to be his own form, but I still need more information on how it relates to the GoD's, and what exactly it is, and if anyone has ever achieved it before. Ultra Instinct is a form Goku achieved but was available to anyone with a high enough power level and the mentality for it. What is Ultra Ego? What's its history? Its origin?

All things I would love to know.

[picc]

My power rankings at the moment, re: strongest in the universe

Gas
Granolah
UE Vegeta
MUI Goku
SSBE Vegeta
UI Omen Goku/SSJ Broly
SSJB Goku (UI) (Kaioken)
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta

Any stand out issues?

[KentMan]

So far as I’m in seeing in this thread is just speculation as to how strong Jiren and Belmod is to Beerus. And not one person here has ever used concrete evidence to prove Beerus is above both. Goku and Vegeta gains weren’t that big in the Moro arc as shown when Vegeta blue evolution could not do anything to normal Moro. Without Forced Spirit fission and Goku with his kaioken like technique blue form managed to blow off Moro 73 s arm and still fail.

[picc]

Goku and Vegeta have both trained extensively since the Moro arc. And Vegeta was stated to have gotten more powerful during his fight with Granolah, which he started off as being dominated and ended as being very competitive.

[KentMan]

My power rankings at the moment, re: strongest in the universe

Gas
Granolah
UE Vegeta
MUI Goku
SSBE Vegeta
UI Omen Goku/SSJ Broly
SSJB Goku (UI) (Kaioken)
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta

Any stand out issues?

Yeah Uchida doesn’t agree with you on Broly jokes aside. Toyotaro has as of yet never said who was stronger between UI Goku or UE Vegeta. It doesn’t make sense that blue Goku with UI can hold his own against FP Granolah.