Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I’m going with it revs you up because again by your thoughts and opinion Beerus should already be equal or stronger than Whis. Vegeta UE statement is really ambiguous as what he means. Maybe it does literally strengthen someone or maybe it’s something else.

The power of destruction makes its user stronger as it’s inflicted damage on itself. Vegeta lets Granolah’s attacks hit him on purpose to activate the power-up. Granolah remarks multiple times Vegeta is getting stronger in the form. No ambiguities here. And drop the strawman fallacy, I never implied Beerus is on Whis’ level or stronger. We don’t even know how a fight between them would play out.

When I say like cell I’m not counting cell regeneration power. And Jiren as revealed when fighting Goku and Vegeta still had a lot of power. Meaning he was close to using his super full power as the wiki calls it. If Goku and him were equals Goku would never had lost or fail to knock Jiren down or out.

Unlike with Cell, Goku was on the winning side against Jiren, as Jiren needed to break his own limits to keep fighting. Jiren didn’t simply overpower ultra instinct like you are suggesting or had power to spare like Cell. Goku only lost the form there because his body was starting to feel the collateral effects of ultra instinct (a problem that he presumably wouldn’t have with the strength he had against Moro, by the way). It was a matter of who would be exhausted first, both were already pasting their peak.

After that, Jiren only had enough power to deal with Base Goku and Base Vegeta, which were tired on their own regard. So, Goku’s remark is not supposed to imply that Jiren had power greater than whatever he used to fight ultra instinct, it’s just that compared to the power Goku and Vegeta had left, Jiren still had a lot. Heck, Jiren almost couldn’t deflect a ki sphere from final form Freeza.

[Koitsukai]

What about the Namekian Saviour that Moro fisted? I doubt he was made of nameks with a PL way over 3,000, considering the Namek arc anime had goons around that level trying to ambush Freeza, but maybe there's another Nail-like fighter by now.

Would he have been useful in the Namek arc?

[KentMan]

The power of destruction makes its user stronger as it’s inflicted damage on itself. Vegeta lets Granolah’s attacks hit him on purpose to activate the power-up. Granolah remarks multiple times Vegeta is getting stronger in the form. No ambiguities here. And drop the strawman fallacy, I never implied Beerus is on Whis’ level or stronger. We don’t even know how a fight between them would play out.

Unlike with Cell, Goku was on the winning side against Jiren, as Jiren needed to break his own limits to keep fighting. Jiren didn’t simply overpower ultra instinct like you are suggesting or had power to spare like Cell. Goku only lost the form there because his body was starting to feel the collateral effects of ultra instinct (a problem that he presumably wouldn’t have with the strength he had against Moro, by the way). It was a matter of who would be exhausted first, both were already pasting their peak.

After that, Jiren only had enough power to deal with Base Goku and Base Vegeta, which were tired on their own regard. So, Goku’s remark is not supposed to imply that Jiren had power greater than whatever he used to fight ultra instinct, it’s just that compared to the power Goku and Vegeta had left, Jiren still had a lot. Heck, Jiren almost couldn’t deflect a ki sphere from final form Freeza.

Where does Granolah know that Vegeta was getting stronger? Other than Granolah taking Vegeta word for it. All Vegeta was doing was getting amped and it’s not like Granolah was getting weaker. He struggled to fight Granolah who didn’t have his left sharigan and he was getting stronger. Intending to get hurt is dumb and reckless for Vegeta. Ah yes Whis vs Beerus and you sir don’t know how that would play out. Well to make it simple Beerus would lose and Whis doesn’t have to try. Like are you serious? Just then you were claiming that Beerus isn’t on Whis level or higher you say that.

The fight with cell is the same with Jiren just different. Jiren beat Goku and yes it did exhaust him but Jiren was still strong enough to deal with everyone albeit failing when Frieza speared him. Jiren as Whis says still has a lot of power meaning Jiren was still holding back. If this same fight happened with Beerus it be much easier because Beerus is weaker than Jiren. And who knows what would have happened had Beerus fought UI Goku.

[Koitsukai]

The power of destruction makes its user stronger as it’s inflicted damage on itself. Vegeta lets Granolah’s attacks hit him on purpose to activate the power-up. Granolah remarks multiple times Vegeta is getting stronger in the form. No ambiguities here. And drop the strawman fallacy, I never implied Beerus is on Whis’ level or stronger. We don’t even know how a fight between them would play out.

Unlike with Cell, Goku was on the winning side against Jiren, as Jiren needed to break his own limits to keep fighting. Jiren didn’t simply overpower ultra instinct like you are suggesting or had power to spare like Cell. Goku only lost the form there because his body was starting to feel the collateral effects of ultra instinct (a problem that he presumably wouldn’t have with the strength he had against Moro, by the way). It was a matter of who would be exhausted first, both were already pasting their peak.

After that, Jiren only had enough power to deal with Base Goku and Base Vegeta, which were tired on their own regard. So, Goku’s remark is not supposed to imply that Jiren had power greater than whatever he used to fight ultra instinct, it’s just that compared to the power Goku and Vegeta had left, Jiren still had a lot. Heck, Jiren almost couldn’t deflect a ki sphere from final form Freeza.

Where does Granolah know that Vegeta was getting stronger? Other than Granolah taking Vegeta word for it. All Vegeta was doing was getting amped and it’s not like Granolah was getting weaker. He struggled to fight Granolah who didn’t have his left sharigan and he was getting stronger.

Sorry, but doesn't this question have the most obvious answer??? he is literally fighting him, feeling the weight of his punches over and over again, and talking about it. Like... his experience is worth more than even a scouter reading or what a bystander may say about it.

Jiren was still strong enough to deal with everyone albeit failing when Frieza speared him. Jiren as Whis says still has a lot of power meaning Jiren was still holding back.

You conclusion is faulty. Having something still in the tank does not equate to holding back, it's a huge jump in logic, still being strong doesn't mean having been suppressed. I can go all out with my supercar at 300 KMH for a short distance and still have something left in my tank to drive a few blocks at 100 KMH.
Goku still had something left in him as well, considering he shoot a KHH... was Goku holding back while in UI just because he still had some juice left? the answer is no. It means Jiren was so strong than even after going all out, whatever he got left was still huge. He had more left than Goku because he was from the get go much stronger.

No offense, but it is starting to sound like you are trolling when you ask how does Granola know that the guy that is beating him is getting stronger.

[picc]

Also please remember that Granolah does not actually exist. Whatever he “says” is just AT speaking through him.

Its bizaare someone would be so adamant that a writer is going out of his way to lie about and misrepresent his own idea.

[Hugo Boss]

No offense, but it is starting to sound like you are trolling when you ask how does Granola know that the guy that is beating him is getting stronger.

I’m definitely dropping any further discussions with him after that. Powerscale discussion is one of the most controversial aspects of the franchise, but a rebuttal to literally every single piece of information is not worth our times.

What about the Namekian Saviour that Moro fisted? I doubt he was made of nameks with a PL way over 3,000, considering the Namek arc anime had goons around that level trying to ambush Freeza, but maybe there's another Nail-like fighter by now.

Would he have been useful in the Namek arc?

I think it’s possible they reproduced quick enough to give birth to warrior-type Namekians, mainly after Freeza’s invasion. So, it’s possible that last Namekian could be compared to Saonel or Pirina.

[KentMan]

The power of destruction makes its user stronger as it’s inflicted damage on itself. Vegeta lets Granolah’s attacks hit him on purpose to activate the power-up. Granolah remarks multiple times Vegeta is getting stronger in the form. No ambiguities here. And drop the strawman fallacy, I never implied Beerus is on Whis’ level or stronger. We don’t even know how a fight between them would play out.

Unlike with Cell, Goku was on the winning side against Jiren, as Jiren needed to break his own limits to keep fighting. Jiren didn’t simply overpower ultra instinct like you are suggesting or had power to spare like Cell. Goku only lost the form there because his body was starting to feel the collateral effects of ultra instinct (a problem that he presumably wouldn’t have with the strength he had against Moro, by the way). It was a matter of who would be exhausted first, both were already pasting their peak.

After that, Jiren only had enough power to deal with Base Goku and Base Vegeta, which were tired on their own regard. So, Goku’s remark is not supposed to imply that Jiren had power greater than whatever he used to fight ultra instinct, it’s just that compared to the power Goku and Vegeta had left, Jiren still had a lot. Heck, Jiren almost couldn’t deflect a ki sphere from final form Freeza.

Where does Granolah know that Vegeta was getting stronger? Other than Granolah taking Vegeta word for it. All Vegeta was doing was getting amped and it’s not like Granolah was getting weaker. He struggled to fight Granolah who didn’t have his left sharigan and he was getting stronger.

Sorry, but doesn't this question have the most obvious answer??? he is literally fighting him, feeling the weight of his punches over and over again, and talking about it. Like... his experience is worth more than even a scouter reading or what a bystander may say about it.

Jiren was still strong enough to deal with everyone albeit failing when Frieza speared him. Jiren as Whis says still has a lot of power meaning Jiren was still holding back.

You conclusion is faulty. Having something still in the tank does not equate to holding back, it's a huge jump in logic, still being strong doesn't mean having been suppressed. I can go all out with my supercar at 300 KMH for a short distance and still have something left in my tank to drive a few blocks at 100 KMH.
Goku still had something left in him as well, considering he shoot a KHH... was Goku holding back while in UI just because he still had some juice left? the answer is no. It means Jiren was so strong than even after going all out, whatever he got left was still huge. He had more left than Goku because he was from the get go much stronger.

No offense, but it is starting to sound like you are trolling when you ask how does Granola know that the guy that is beating him is getting stronger.

I’m the one that’s trolling and yet Hugo Boss says he doesn’t know how a fight with Beerus and Whis would play out. I love how you cut off some of the stuff I said. It’s almost like you didn’t bother to read. There is no way that Vegeta had gotten stronger other than when he transformed. Just as if that was true than Goku must have gotten stronger to hold his own against FP Granolah. I’m not the only one that doesn’t take what Vegeta says seriously since that’s just his ego talking. It’s no different with Beerus his ego makes him think he has no limits yet the GP being upset scares him. And Zeno would like to have a lot of words with his claim.

[KentMan]

I’m definitely dropping any further discussions with him after that. Powerscale discussion is one of the most controversial aspects of the franchise, but a rebuttal to literally every single piece of information is not worth our times.

Would he have been useful in the Namek arc?

Good because you telling me that you don’t know how a fight between Beerus and Whis would play out. Already cemented that you never watched the BOG, read the manga chapter where Whis easily knocks Beerus out. And don’t take this the wrong way but you are clearly lying. Since these two first appeared we was told and shown that Whis is way above Beerus. And you still think you don’t how a fight would play out? I’m surprised that you guys accuse me of trolling and yet so far no one else called you out for lying except me. How can you tell me that you never said Beerus was never on Whis level or higher, than say you don’t know the how fight between those two would turn out?

[Koitsukai]

I’m the one that’s trolling and yet Hugo Boss says he doesn’t know how a fight with Beerus and Whis would play out. I love how you cut off some of the stuff I said. It’s almost like you didn’t bother to read. There is no way that Vegeta had gotten stronger other than when he transformed. Just as if that was true than Goku must have gotten stronger to hold his own against FP Granolah. I’m not the only one that doesn’t take what Vegeta says seriously since that’s just his ego talking. It’s no different with Beerus his ego makes him think he has no limits yet the GP being upset scares him. And Zeno would like to have a lot of words with his claim.

Oh believe me, I've read it several times, trying to make any sense of it.
Granola said Vegeta's gotten stronger, and he was fighting Geets, not you, guess who I'm going to believe. I guess it's also Vegeta's ego talking through Granola's mouth.

And yes, Goku improved his UI in a such a way that Granola no longer can put him down hitting his vitals. He didn't get stronger, he got better with his migatte against an already wore down Granola, good enough to no longer be one-shot material.

You are still denying actual facts explictly published on the manga, based on... well, you not liking them. You can see why it's hard to place your comments as non-trolling.

[KentMan]

I’m the one that’s trolling and yet Hugo Boss says he doesn’t know how a fight with Beerus and Whis would play out. I love how you cut off some of the stuff I said. It’s almost like you didn’t bother to read. There is no way that Vegeta had gotten stronger other than when he transformed. Just as if that was true than Goku must have gotten stronger to hold his own against FP Granolah. I’m not the only one that doesn’t take what Vegeta says seriously since that’s just his ego talking. It’s no different with Beerus his ego makes him think he has no limits yet the GP being upset scares him. And Zeno would like to have a lot of words with his claim.

Oh believe me, I've read it several times, trying to make any sense of it.
Granola said Vegeta's gotten stronger, and he was fighting Geets, not you, guess who I'm going to believe. I guess it's also Vegeta's ego talking through Granola's mouth.

And yes, Goku improved his UI in a such a way that Granola no longer can put him down hitting his vitals. He didn't get stronger, he got better with his migatte against an already wore down Granola, good enough to no longer be one-shot material.

You are still denying actual facts explictly published on the manga, based on... well, you not liking them. You can see why it's hard to place your comments as non-trolling.

Again you just ignored twice what Hugo just said previously and you’re just putting out head canon. Goku getting better had more to do with him getting a read on Granolah attacks. No where in that chapter was it shown that Granolah was tired yet. Only after fighting Goku did we see him exhausted but still strong enough to beat UE Vegeta. If you keep ignoring what Hugo said about Beerus and Whis than you accusing me of not liking certain things as you claim won’t do much for your credibility. The fact that Granolah had to wait until Gokus accuracy with the silver haired went down. And the fact that Gokus defensive capabilities in Blue was able to hold his own against a more powerful Granolah. Is basically implying that Goku is above Vegeta.

[Koitsukai]

I’m the one that’s trolling and yet Hugo Boss says he doesn’t know how a fight with Beerus and Whis would play out. I love how you cut off some of the stuff I said. It’s almost like you didn’t bother to read. There is no way that Vegeta had gotten stronger other than when he transformed. Just as if that was true than Goku must have gotten stronger to hold his own against FP Granolah. I’m not the only one that doesn’t take what Vegeta says seriously since that’s just his ego talking. It’s no different with Beerus his ego makes him think he has no limits yet the GP being upset scares him. And Zeno would like to have a lot of words with his claim.

Oh believe me, I've read it several times, trying to make any sense of it.
Granola said Vegeta's gotten stronger, and he was fighting Geets, not you, guess who I'm going to believe. I guess it's also Vegeta's ego talking through Granola's mouth.

And yes, Goku improved his UI in a such a way that Granola no longer can put him down hitting his vitals. He didn't get stronger, he got better with his migatte against an already wore down Granola, good enough to no longer be one-shot material.

You are still denying actual facts explictly published on the manga, based on... well, you not liking them. You can see why it's hard to place your comments as non-trolling.

Again you just ignored twice what Hugo just said previously and you’re just putting out head canon. Goku getting better had more to do with him getting a read on Granolah attacks. No where in that chapter was it shown that Granolah was tired yet. Only after fighting Goku did we see him exhausted but still strong enough to beat UE Vegeta. If you keep ignoring what Hugo said about Beerus and Whis than you accusing me of not liking certain things as you claim won’t do much for your credibility. The fact that Granolah had to wait until Gokus accuracy with the silver haired went down. And the fact that Gokus defensive capabilities in Blue was able to hold his own against a more powerful Granolah. Is basically implying that Goku is above Vegeta.

What does what Hugo said have anything to do with our discussion???????

How could it be headcanon to mention what Granola said??? and what do you mean Granola wasn't tired?? he had three fights in a row, got his ass handed to him in one of them, and there's even a panel of him gasping before Geets jumps back in! And Vegeta even says he won't be able to hold for much longer.

You either didn't read the manga, don't understand it or are just trolling us. There is no other explanation to your arguments. I'm done, here, peace.

[KentMan]

What does what Hugo said have anything to do with our discussion???????

How could it be headcanon to mention what Granola said??? and what do you mean Granola wasn't tired?? he had three fights in a row, got his ass handed to him in one of them, and there's even a panel of him gasping before Geets jumps back in! And Vegeta even says he won't be able to hold for much longer.

You either didn't read the manga, don't understand it or are just trolling us. There is no other explanation to your arguments. I'm done, here, peace.

I just said that he was shown tired after fighting Goku when he kicked him down which was where Vegeta starts talking about him getting tired didn’t I? Don’t get mad at me because you’re the one here making mistakes. Vegeta only said he was getting tired right when the panel shows him tired. You don’t get tired the moment you get your new power that fast. Otherwise Vegeta wouldn’t need saving from Goku. And he would have won the fight by his claim which he didn’t. Granolah getter tired is clear that it was happening after Goku’s fight with him. And Hugo has plenty to do with our discussion just as you three times as of now ignored what he said. Again accusing me of not reading the manga doesn’t help you’re credibility I don’t take what Vegeta says seriously especially after what Goku did in chapter 76. It’s just weird how the destroyers are still weaker than their guides and you guys can’t come up with a good reasoning. And worse one of you just said that you don’t know how that fight would turn out. That’s actual trolling and amusing that you call me a troll. And now scurrying off and saying you’re done is an admission of guilt.

[KentMan]

Also please remember that Granolah does not actually exist. Whatever he “says” is just AT speaking through him.

Its bizaare someone would be so adamant that a writer is going out of his way to lie about and misrepresent his own idea.

Huh? I don’t get what you are saying? My apologies for not having seen what you posted.

[picc]

KentMan, could you explain why you think the writer of the series is going out of his way to intentionally misrepresent the dynamics of his own transformation concept, immediately after its introduced?

No worries at all for missing it before. There's a ton of chatter and long replies ITT, very easy to miss a shorter one.

[KentMan]

KentMan, could you explain why you think the writer of the series is going out of his way to intentionally misrepresent the dynamics of his own transformation concept, immediately after its introduced?

No worries at all for missing it before. There's a ton of chatter and long replies ITT, very easy to miss a shorter one.

Before that I want to put out that this same writer had Piccolo say that Vegeta never underestimates his enemies lol. I presume you are talking about UE correct? If so I think it’s good to analyze what is happening. If Ultra Ego does indeed make one stronger through pain. It’s a wonder how the destroyers are weaker than guides. A certain someone just said that Beerus who is a user of UE is not Whis level or higher. Than he says he’s not sure how that fight would play out. You see the problem here? I am getting mixed signals from some in this forum that they aren’t sure they understand UE. I don’t think the writer is misrepresenting anything with exceptions of course it’s really some fans that misunderstand what’s happening.

[picc]

KentMan, could you explain why you think the writer of the series is going out of his way to intentionally misrepresent the dynamics of his own transformation concept, immediately after its introduced?

No worries at all for missing it before. There's a ton of chatter and long replies ITT, very easy to miss a shorter one.

Before that I want to put out that this same writer had Piccolo say that Vegeta never underestimates his enemies lol. I presume you are talking about UE correct? If so I think it’s good to analyze what is happening. If Ultra Ego does indeed make one stronger through pain. It’s a wonder how the destroyers are weaker than guides. A certain someone just said that Beerus who is a user of UE is not Whis level or higher. Than he says he’s not sure how that fight would play out. You see the problem here? I am getting mixed signals from some in this forum that they aren’t sure they understand UE. I don’t think the writer is misrepresenting anything with exceptions of course it’s really some fans that misunderstand what’s happening.

Your arguments with everyone else aren't really my business.. But as pertains to our discussion:

re: Piccolo

I don't doubt AT has written things that go against prior canon. But we're talking about a real-time, in the moment statement describing the nature of a powerup that was literally introduced pages before the description of it. Its unreasonable to think AT "forgot" or was confused about how UE worked immediately after he created it. Not the same as "forgetting" about times Vegeta underestimated his opponent years, or even decades ago

re: why aren't he destroyers stronger than the angels

There are numerous possible reasons.

- the angels are so far above the GoD's that even with constant power increases they are still inferior. Similar to how there are beings the Saiyans are still inferior to despite experiencing countless powerups themselves. There is always someone stronger

- If we are to assume UE makes you stronger through damage, its to be understood that damage must be taken for that increase to happen. How much damage do you think Beerus has taken over the last few millennia? The only beings capable of hurting him are other GoD's, who are in other universes, angels, who don't fight, and Zeno

[Thani]

Plus, it's also never said that the gained strength from damage is permanent.

As you said, KentMan, it actually does revs Vegeta up to an extent. It also probably goes down when he reverts to normal or when he can no longer withstand the increased power. This part I admit is headcanon, but yeah, UE itself hasn't been properly explained in this regard.

[KentMan]

Your arguments with everyone else aren't really my business. But as pertains to our discussion:

re: Piccolo

I don't doubt AT has written things that go against prior canon. But we're talking about a real-time, in the moment statement describing the nature of a powerup that was literally introduced pages before the description of it. Its unreasonable to think AT "forgot" or was confused about how UE worked immediately after he created it. Not the same as "forgetting" about times Vegeta underestimated his opponent years, or even decades ago

re: why aren't he destroyers stronger than the angels

There are numerous possible reasons.

- the angels are so far above the GoD's that even with constant power increases they are still inferior. Similar to how there are beings the Saiyans are still inferior to despite experiencing countless powerups themselves. There is always someone stronger

- If we are to assume UE makes you stronger through damage, its to be understood that damage must be taken for that increase to happen. How much damage do you think Beerus has taken over the last few millennia? The only beings capable of hurting him are other GoD's, who are in other universes, angels, who don't fight, and Zeno

Never said it was your business just pointing out what people are getting wrong so I’ll leave it at that.

Now this is where it gets funny the one that actually made ultra ego was actually Toyotaro. Now from what I can recall he showed it to Toriyama and he gave him the green light. So everything the manga is saying about it is coming from Toyotaro with Toriyama approval. Not certain if you saw the other interview Toyotaro did or not.

Your reasoning that despite having supposedly increases of strength they’re still inferior. Is because of how saiyans are inferior? Not that this would mean anything to you but in chapter 68 I noticed that Whis was putting a bit more effort to sparring with Goku. And when comparing Gokus UI he only points to Merus, himself, and their dad for Goku having room to improve no mention of Beerus. That’s right Goku made Whis put actual effort. Something a destroyer has yet to show.

No if the amount damage he takes makes him stronger he would be dead. Zeno wouldn’t damage him oh wait he did when he made him his horsey and Beerus wasn’t getting stronger than him. Zeno would erase him from existence and the GP would handle him with just his finger his UE would do nothing to the GP or his kids. Belmod can’t do anything to Jiren and Jiren is being put in the same sentence as Broly in Gokus new bio. You have three individuals that are either equal or stronger than Beerus you have Broly and Belmod. Than you have one who was confirmed to be above a destroyer Jiren.

[KentMan]

Plus, it's also never said that the gained strength from damage is permanent.

As you said, KentMan, it actually does revs Vegeta up to an extent. It also probably goes down when he reverts to normal or when he can no longer withstand the increased power. This part I admit is headcanon, but yeah, UE itself hasn't been properly explained in this regard.

Hmmm you bring up how it was not explained properly that I agree with it. Perhaps in later chapters there would be a clear explanation. Jiren being stronger than Belmod shouldn’t be true if this was the case. Reading the bonus pages really helps to know that Belmod could not physically make Jiren do anything. UE and UI is really dependent on the user themselves the more Goku increases and uses UI in his base the better and stronger his silver hair would be. As for Vegeta I can presume that the more lust he has for destruction the better he will be.

[ZombieVito]

What about the Namekian Saviour that Moro fisted? I doubt he was made of nameks with a PL way over 3,000, considering the Namek arc anime had goons around that level trying to ambush Freeza, but maybe there's another Nail-like fighter by now.

Would he have been useful in the Namek arc?

The anime had actually 3 fighters with 10,000 each fighting Freeza before Nail. I don't see why they wouldn't be more people as strong as Nail or even more by the Moro arc.

The Namek savior would have probably defeated Freeza.

Hopefully this is something Toei expands when Super returns.