How Many Times have You Seen DB All the Way Through?

[pixie_misa]

Literally all that changed production wise between the end of DB and the start of Z is a new title sequence and some new music cues. That's it.

Same animation directors, same animators, same studios, same everything.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

OG DB definitely started off HEAVILY leaning toward the Dr. Slump gag comedy angle and no surprise there, considering Toriyama had just come off concluding the serialization of the latter when he started work on Dragon Ball in late 1984. Once you get to the 22nd Budokai and especially the Piccolo Diamao arc, that's when the gradual but ultimate transition over to the heavy emphasis on action with Z happens. Even the very beginning of Z still looks like late era DB and that's no surprise considering it literally started the week after ep 153 aired in early 1989. The epic cascading planetary battles, power ups, heavier sci-fi elements and stuff really came with DBZ, but the seeds (or Senzu, to put it in Dragon Ball terms) were planted there from near the end of the original series when the staff transition happened at Toei around the time of the 23rd Budokai. Overall though, things more or less stayed the same at first and the look of the show didn't really change that much until Toriyama started to shift to the more angular style late in the Freeza arc and the very beginning of Androids/Cell.

[ABED]

I would argue it started with Tao Pai Pai more than even the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. But point taken.

[Anonymous Friend]

Z 5+:
Original Toonami run.
Late night Adult Swim "uncut" run at the same time.
Orange Bricks as they released. Plus at least two more time.

GT 3:
Original Cartoon Network airing
Green Bricks as they were released. Plus one more time.

OG 3:
Original airing. Plus the second time they aired, and I missed the same exact episode both times.
Blue bricks.

Abridged:
I'm on my 13th or 14th rewatch.

[dva_raza]

Like being more specific I think it’s probably that from the little I saw of fights (maybe 2, the rest it’s always training) they felt slow in pace and lacked this “epic” feeling from most of DBZs, what SuperSaiyaManZ94 mentioned about Super Saiyans/planet shattering battles is probably the thing, also really, the characters, Goku I prefer as an adult and the rest, I feel like in DBZ the group has become established and polished with the best characters, at least the ones that I like, and their whole dynamic is awsome. Anyway, but you’re right I don’t have the full context.

Muten Roshi literally destroys the moon so that sort of battle is there from nearly the start. The Piccolo fights and Tenshinhan battle are just as fast as anything you see in DBZ. Also, the fights know not to drag things out for double digit episodes.

I think what's putting dva_raza off about the battles in the original show, as indicated by his Family Guy comparison, is how flat and "low-budget" looking the animation is in that era. In terms of actual plot and choreography, the fights from Tenshinhan onwards are pretty much just like the fights in Z. But the animation doesn't really do said plot and choreography justice the way Z's animation later would. That was actually a big complaint Toriyama's editor raised when he saw the Piccolo arc on TV: The animation style felt too flat and uninteresting for a battle-focused series.

That's the main reason they created the division between Z and the original show: Because of the editor's complaints, Toei got completely new directors and writers for the Saiyan arc onwards, taken from their previous show Saint Seiya. Those new creatives made Z feel much more cool and engaging than the original show, at least to me.

You can have the greatest story in the world, but it will still look like crap under bland direction. And I would definitely say that original DB looks bland, so bland that Toriyama's editor called for the main creatives to be replaced for Z.

That not only summarized my feelings perfectly but the piece of data you mention about the editor which I didn’t know about, funnily enough, actually confirms precisely what that I see.

I thought it wasn’t my right to mention “direction” when I haven’t seen a complete fight, but I knew from the little that I’ve seen that there is something different about their styles, and “flat” is the exact word. When I said they felt slow in pacing I didn’t mean so much that they were extended in time, but more that they felt repetitive and uninteresting, unimpactful, which is what makes them drag.
I know Dragon Ball must have quality fights and story behind them, of course, but to say there’s no difference between their style and Zs? (And yes, the thing about the art/animation looking cheaper too.)
One of the fights that I saw a bit of (about 10 minutes maybe) and this was actually recent, is the Piccolo vs Goku that someone mentioned above. And I’m thinking, maybe this fight was impactful to most (I guess that's what he means by "greatest") because most saw the franchise in the right order?
Cause for me, after seeing fights in Z, Super, and mindblowing things like Vegeta VS Broly,.. the Piccolo vs Goku battle seemed blah.
I mean I don’t know if it gets more gripping and interesting as it progresses and has the most amazing climax ever cause I didn’t watch all of it, but I do know that I’m very easily absorbed by any (even small, random) battle in Z and Super and I really wasn’t with this one.

OG DB definitely started off HEAVILY leaning toward the Dr. Slump gag comedy angle and no surprise there, considering Toriyama had just come off concluding the serialization of the latter when he started work on Dragon Ball in late 1984. Once you get to the 22nd Budokai and especially the Piccolo Diamao arc, that's when the gradual but ultimate transition over to the heavy emphasis on action with Z happens. Even the very beginning of Z still looks like late era DB and that's no surprise considering it literally started the week after ep 153 aired in early 1989. The epic cascading planetary battles, power ups, heavier sci-fi elements and stuff really came with DBZ, but the seeds (or Senzu, to put it in Dragon Ball terms) were planted there from near the end of the original series when the staff transition happened at Toei around the time of the 23rd Budokai. Overall though, things more or less stayed the same at first and the look of the show didn't really change that much until Toriyama started to shift to the more angular style late in the Freeza arc and the very beginning of Androids/Cell.

This might explain why I was attracted to Z at first glance, since my introduction to it was the Android arc (and also a small part of the latest of the Frieza arc before that)

I mean recalling my first impressions, after like I said, having seen many instances of Dragon Ball before, really, the very first thing that I was drawn to was to how it looked.
It just seemed visually better. And apart from the new designs of the characters, the faces especially, the image quality seeming neater and brighter and upgraded, it was also the animation. Something about it seemed cooler, smoother. I saw this moment with Krillin being exploded and Goku as an adult transforming and to be honest my jaw dropped. Sure, in part due to how staggering it seemed whatever was going on there but also it was just visually different to anything from Dragon Ball I had seen.
Then the next time I saw it it was some episodes later on, and I remember I was surprised with how fresh the group felt. There were new characters that not just looked interesting but were clearly creating a different tone, while the lame ones from DB were not present/the focus wasn’t on them. The whole dynamic felt better and sharper, to my taste, the gaggy vibe seemed to be gone.
And the situation was really intriguing. Some guy with a badass look who I’d never seen before shows up out of nowhere and ends in one blow this huge villain that I had been hearing about for all that time. It was so fuckin bold. The combination of all that and especially the angry guy in the pink shirt grabbed me like nothing I had previously glimpsed from Dragon Ball did.

[ABED]

I'm sorry, but you think the Broly fights in the Super movie were impactful? You consider DB's fights repetitive? Sorry but after the thousandth time Broly sends them crashing into the mountain, I lose interest because that is repetitive. This doesn't feel genuine at this point and like you are searching for reasons to not go back.

Your introduction was the Cell arc which has maybe 1 good/great fight and that doesn't have an ending.

And for something you haven't watched you have VERY strong opinions about it. You keep bringing up the gag manga tone but as everyone else here has said that's not the case. And they would know because they have seen it.

[JulieYBM]

The directing and animation for Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z didn't begin to become ambitious until Yama'uchi Shigeyasu began to work on Dragon Ball Z. Hisada Kazuya and Shimanuki Masahiro definitely started to raise the level of their fights during the Namek arc but it was Yama'uchi who would bring dynamic and vivid storyboards to his episodes, with Ueda Yoshihiro following suit. There's a reason Yama'uchi is so loved by Toei staff, after all. Dragon Ball Z episodes and films with his influence are definitely the best and he only got better as time went on. His Digimon films are absurdly great.

[dva_raza]

I'm sorry, but you think the Broly fights in the Super movie were impactful? You consider DB's fights repetitive? Sorry but after the thousandth time Broly sends them crashing into the mountain, I lose interest because that is repetitive. This doesn't feel genuine at this point and like you are searching for reasons to not go back.

LOL what? Why wouldn’t I be genuine?
Vegeta VS Broly is my favorite fight. The Broly vs Goku one I agree that it’s too much mountain crashing. But for Vegeta’s? Nah not at all.
It has an extended, very clear and nice choreography, the pacing is very stylish, there are some very nice moves from Vegeta, the animation is amazing (even the facial expressions), the crescendo of the fight is well done, both from emotional and technical aspects, there’s vulnerability of the characters and an interesting progression of their situation and it’s aesthetically pleasing/impactful.
I’m not saying it’s the best fight I’m just mentioning the aspects for which it was exciting to me and those I didn’t get from the ones that I saw in Dragon Ball. But really, what constitutes a “great” fight? Because I would think that’s just a matter of taste.

Your introduction was the Cell arc which has maybe 1 good/great fight and that doesn't have an ending.

The episode I saw it says on wikipedia that it's from Season 4: Garlic Jr., Trunks and Androids Sagas (1991–1992)
But nevertheless. I love the fights of Vegeta VS 18, 16, imperfect Cell, and Goku vs Cell

And for something you haven't watched you have VERY strong opinions about it.

No not really. I think you’re maybe mixing the strong opinions I gave about Z and Super, with what I mentioned about Dragon Ball. I didn’t really give any opinion on Dragon Ball as a whole. I only commented on aspects that I literally saw or that I know of from people’s comments here and made comparisons of those aspects in Z and Super. Which are the style of fights, the art, and the tone (characters).

You keep bringing up the gag manga tone but as everyone else here has said that's not the case. And they would know because they have seen it.

Well actually this is the first time I mentioned the gag style and I only mentioned it because of the previous comment here from SuperSaiyaManZ94 in which he said the inicial style of Dragon Ball was like that, I know that was changed later on in Dragon Ball, I just used that aspect to explain what I liked about Z when I first saw it in comparison to what I had seen from Dragon Ball at that time.

[MyVisionity]

I can understand where dva_raza is coming from since everything before the 23rd Budoukai looks like gag shit. From a visual standpoint, I can see why someone who was introduced into the series during the middle of the Z-era might be turned off by DB-era artwork and style.

That said, I still think it's important to give the series a chance and start watching from the beginning. It's not just about the animation and art style, there's also the story, characters, concepts, etc.

[dva_raza]

I can understand where dva_raza is coming from since everything before the 23rd Budoukai looks like gag shit. From a visual standpoint, I can see why someone who was introduced into the series during the middle of the Z-era might be turned off by DB-era artwork and style.

That said, I still think it's important to give the series a chance and start watching from the beginning. It's not just about the animation and art style, there's also the story, characters, concepts, etc.

Of course I know that there's a story that I'm basically remaining ignorant to if I don't see all of it, the thing is that I didn't care, first, because my dislike for the art and characters present in Dragon Ball (and the absence of the characters and new dynamics that I like from Z) was bigger than my curiosity for any story, concepts and fights that I might miss. (Citing a part of my inicial comment on this thread: "while I’ve seen some parts of it, considering it doesn’t affect at all my understanding and enjoyment of Dragon Ball Z and Super, I don’t think I need to watch it if I know I won’t enjoy it". Meaning that I get that there is a whole big story starting way back from where I started the story from. But when it's not something that prevents me from enjoying and understanding the current one, I didn't think that watching the story that mostly focuses on characters that I'm not that into was necessary.
And secondly because, I'm not sure how to explain this but I also had this feeling that by me keeping the story's beggining from where I know it, which is a very cool begining story and tone wise, I avoided the possibility of maybe tainting it if I saw all that went on previously that I know has different characters and therefore a different tone.

But I got an understanding from this conversation here, that the latest arcs of Dragon Ball are closer in tone to Z, that’s why I thought it’s a good idea to watch it from there and I will! (starting from the begining though sounds too drastic of a change for me). My first post today I was really just trying to give a more expanded explanation regarding what had felt different to me so far between Dragon Ball and Z/Super, or I why I hadn't been inclined to watch it, that's all

[ABED]

a very cool begining story and tone wise, I avoided the possibility of maybe tainting it if I saw all that went on previously that I know has different characters and therefore a different tone.

Because it's more of a comedy? I get that DB is cool and badass, but that's not all it is. It starts off as a gag manga, quickly moves past that and the tone changes fairly rapidly. I still will never understand this mentality at all.

I think we need to get off this, this is clearly a digression. Sorry about that.

[PurestEvil]

If it makes you feel better, dva_raza, there is no Vegeta in OG DB

[MasenkoHA]

If it makes you feel better, dva_raza, there is no Vegeta in OG DB

That’s one of its upsides, tbh.

[dva_raza]

If it makes you feel better, dva_raza, there is no Vegeta in OG DB

LOL no I only hate him as a "person", but I love his fights and his presence makes things more interesting

a very cool begining story and tone wise, I avoided the possibility of maybe tainting it if I saw all that went on previously that I know has different characters and therefore a different tone.

Because it's more of a comedy? I get that DB is cool and badass, but that's not all it is. It starts off as a gag manga, quickly moves past that and the tone changes fairly rapidly. I still will never understand this mentality at all.

I think we need to get off this, this is clearly a digression. Sorry about that.

No.. Because of the characters. I said that a few times. It has characters that I’m not that into and doesn’t have the ones that I am into.
The different characters create a different tone. The comedy in Super is actually my favorite thing about Super, but again, it has different characters to DB and a different kind of comedy.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

For Z, if video games count, then five. Three times in Ultimate Butouden, once in Xenoverse, and once in Kakarot. For the original Dragon Ball, I've technically completed it because I've played Advanced Adventure and the early parts of Attack of the Saiyans.

Now, if you were to ask me "What about the anime or manga?" Then no, I haven't finished any of the series except for Kai 1.0 with Kikuchi music.

[pixie_misa]

Have you considered that these characters might seem uninteresting from what you've seen of them in Z and Super because their most interesting and relevant moments already happened in DB? Or that some of those characters might have been widly different feeling in their first appearances? You might be surprised at how vicious and nasty Tenshinhan is in his first arc for example.

Plus missing out on a lot of really cool villains (Taopaipai! Piccolo Daimao!) that never appear in DBZ onward at all.

IDK it just seems weird to be adamant about all these assumptions of what the show will be like without actually watching it.

[ABED]

Now, if you were to ask me "What about the anime or manga?" Then no, I haven't finished any of the series except for Kai 1.0 with Kikuchi music.

Interesting, might I ask why not?

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Now, if you were to ask me "What about the anime or manga?" Then no, I haven't finished any of the series except for Kai 1.0 with Kikuchi music.

Interesting, might I ask why not?

I simply don't have the time and own none of the home releases, and even if I did have the time, I'm a lazy ass, so...

[ABED]

Now, if you were to ask me "What about the anime or manga?" Then no, I haven't finished any of the series except for Kai 1.0 with Kikuchi music.

Interesting, might I ask why not?

I simply don't have the time and own none of the home releases, and even if I did have the time, I'm a lazy ass, so...

Well at least one of those is solved by streaming.

[dva_raza]

Have you considered that these characters might seem uninteresting from what you've seen of them in Z and Super because their most interesting and relevant moments already happened in DB? Or that some of those characters might have been widly different feeling in their first appearances? You might be surprised at how vicious and nasty Tenshinhan is in his first arc for example.

Plus missing out on a lot of really cool villains (Taopaipai! Piccolo Daimao!) that never appear in DBZ onward at all.

IDK it just seems weird to be adamant about all these assumptions of what the show will be like without actually watching it.

Look I don’t mean to be rude but since an earlier post of yours I had the suspicion you don’t actually read but just skim and reply (kinda the same with ABED tbh) and now I’m sure it’s the case.
I never mentioned anything about the DB’s characters based from how they seem in Z and Super. I've said repeatedly that: I got my perception of aspects about Dragon Ball from seeing moments of Dragon Ball. It’s not assumtions. It’s perception of aspects about the show coming from basic observational skills and some sensibility, the same one that makes you know from seeing a trailer that something’s not your jam without watching the movie. I honestly don’t get what seems to be so unbelievable to you guys about that. Anybody can know if they're attracted to a character or not without having to see the whole film. I saw Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, adults Goku and Bulma and the androids for one second and knew I wanted to see more of that. That didn’t happen with Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Launch, the anthropomorphic animals, Roshi (not that I don't like him but I prefer less of him), and Krillin and Goku as kids (and any other characters that I got to see who’s names I don’t know).
It's just taste. Different taste. I'm assuming you probably saw Dragon Ball because you actually liked it and then you adapted to what followed. For me, I never liked Dragon Ball, but I liked Z so going back to db never felt needed.

The important point I'm trying to make is that just as I saw a moment of Z and was drawn to watch it, literally the same thing could've happened MANY times from the many moments that I saw of DB, but it never did.
Anyway I appreciate the insight and I'm not adamant, I actually said I'll watch those latest arcs. I just don't get the insistance of some, that Dragon Ball Z could be basically confused with Dragon Ball. I mean at least I know for me that would be impossible.