How Many Times have You Seen DB All the Way Through?

[MyVisionity]

But as far as tone and style? There’s nothing different between the Tenshinhan arc (really by the time Tao shows up in the Red Ribbon story) and Piccolo arcs and the Saiyan, Namek, and Cell arcs. The Saiyaman and Boo arcs are straight up Toriyama going back to the gag manga roots. The last couple years of “Z” have way more similarities in tone with what people think of Dragon Ball than half of the actual Dragon Ball

The tone was always evolving. Things were serious and dark before Piccolo, but not as serious and dark as what came afterwards.

As for the Boo saga, that was just as serious and dark as the previous arcs, perhaps even more so in many respects. Toriyama may have inserted some lighter plot points and attempted to return to the gag style, but ultimately it wasn't enough to overcome the serious tone that had evolved throughout the series. You can't successfully go backwards in a series like DB, you have to move forwards.

[dva_raza]

Why would they want to rebrand someting if it was exactly the same?

Marketing gimmick

I know it’s marketing. I’m saying it’s marketing done precisely to be able sell what they knew had already become different since their latest arcs. hence me saying the 2 series are different, (obviously referring to the largest part of Dragon Ball), which is what I think is what was being discussed: Me saying I was never motivated by Dragon Ball from all the bits I’ve seen of it and some of you questioning “How can that be when it’s the same show that you do like”. And the part that becomes puzzling is:
Many of you have confirmed repeatedly on this thread, that there was a shift in tone in the 2 latest arcs of DB. But when I point at that difference as my reason for finding the (larger part) of DB to be different to Z, (apart from the change of characters), you instantly go back to the narrative of: “NO. They are the same.”
And I don't really get the point of that insistant and repeated self contradiction.

This is hilariously off base. A whole new sets of characters?

The focus in Z is on:
Adult (crucial difference to me) Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, adult (crucial) Krillin and Bulma, Piccolo, Dende.
The focus in DB is on:
Kid Goku, kid Krillin and Bulma, Roshi, Yamcha and the cat, Tenshinah and that strange thing that hangs next to him, the pig, Yayirobe, Launch.
Basically the gang from DB is shifted to the side while 3 major, totally new characters, plus the protagonist as an adult, take on the weight in Z. Which is the hilariously off base part?

DB has all of that. The characters you love, the humor, and the story.

The characters I love from Z and Super:
Gohan, Vegita, Trunks, Goten and Trunks, the Androids, good Piccolo, Whis and Beerus.
I know for a fact those are not present in DB.
AND: adults Goku, Krillin and Bulma.
I know for a fact that these are not (for the largest part) present in DB.
That’s a big chunk of characters. It’s not like just one or two being missing. Basically, Dragon Ball doesn’t have the focus on literally any single character that I find groundbreaking. How could I watch the series when that’s the case?

A side note I wanna clarify that I do like Yamcha and his cat and Tenshinhan, and even Yayirobe in the sense that they're funny and likable, but I like them precisely in the small roles that they have in Z and Super, I enjoy their contribution in those stories and that’s how they work for me, that’s the thing. When I've said I “don’t like a character” in this context we’re talking about I don't mean that they're unpleasant but just that they're not appealing to me enough to want to follow them to a bigger extend.
For example the opposite would be that I can't stand Vegeta cause he's a asshole, but he literally makes the story interesting, the conflict with Goku, the times he sabotages things, etc, basically I like Yamcha more that him but I prefer watching a story with Vegeta that watching a story with Yamcha.

The humor:
I know for a fact that the humor in DB is dirtier and more gaggy than the humor in Z and Súper. While there might be some leftovers or sneaks here and there of that style of humor still present in Z, for the most part it evolved to a juvenile kind of humor, but not gaggy nor dirty, and in Super I’d describe it as dark, and absurd, and mostly reliant on dialogue and on character interplay. I didn’t find it gaggy at all, again maybe only some scene here and there but that all, as for the dirty humor I only recall the 2 roshi scenes being like that.

The story:
Whatever the story is, I know for a fact that it follows characters that I don’t find appealing and doesn’t include fighting aspects that I like a lot form Z. Even though I do like quite a lot the grounded combat, the thing with Z’s fighting being evolved to such levels makes the DB fights seem obsolete. I mention the fighting in the "story" part cause it's a fighting show so (even if I haven't seen it) I make the deduction that the story is revolved around that, and on the "adventure" of the Goku and Bulma, which is, also not to my taste. That is the reason I skipped through the first arc of GT, I just don't like the "kids having adventures" thing. It's lame. Lol. Just not my type.

No because stories decline over time, what was once fresh becomes stale, the story goes into utterly ridiculous territory in an effort to keep going. Any number of other reasons. That's not a good comparison.

I think it’s a perfectly fair comparison. I’m not talking about a case in which a show just becomes stale and unfresh.
I’m talking about a case in which someone no longer wants to continue a series specifically because changes in characters (or the focus) are made, and along with those, the story is also changed. Like the characters they like being killed off, too many additions of characters that are unappealing, and the story begining to follow those characters the are uninteresting. It’s still the same show though and it’s part of the story.
That scenario presents literally the same elements of your phrase: “Why would someone not want to watch the whole entirety of a show they love”. Someone loves a show - then doesn’t like the new route and new characters - stops watching - never finds out what happened to the same show they love - and doesn’t care cause they're fine with knowing only the part that he did like.
Is that valid/understandable, or that would also be ‘illogical’?
If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

Please don't get hung up on the word insane. I wasn't being literal. It was just a colloquial way of saying I think what you are doing is illogical.

My point is that I don’t see what's illogical or crazy about choosing to not see a part of a show you love, when that part has different characters and tone

You know how to pick? Never mind.

Exactly.
I just mean that I’m always accurate beforehand about what I’m going to like and what I’m not going to like and my only regrets being from recommendations, never from my mistaken judgement. And wow I've seen a lotta stuff. Have never been wrong in my perception. When I said it's usually accurate, I was trying to be modest.

[ABED]

My point is that I don’t see what's illogical or crazy about choosing to not see a part of a show you love, when that part has different characters and tone

Because you've drawn an arbitrary distinction between several of those characters and their adults selves. Also, Tenshinhan of all characters isn't a comedic character. The good Piccolo is the same person from the end of DB, just later in his development but that development is given greater weight by EXPERIENCING it from the beginning.

Exactly.
I just mean that I’m always accurate beforehand about what I’m going to like and what I’m not going to like and my only regrets being from recommendations, never from my mistaken judgement. And wow I've seen a lotta stuff. Have never been wrong in my perception. When I said it's usually accurate, I was trying to be modest.

Either you're arrogant or this whole thing is you messing with us. The law of large numbers alone makes this an impossibility.

If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

Generally speaking, on the rare occassion I've stopped watching shows I once enjoyed, it took time and a significant drop in quality. I didn't watch a few minutes and deduce (inaccurately) anything.

As for the Boo saga, that was just as serious and dark as the previous arcs, perhaps even more so in many respects. Toriyama may have inserted some lighter plot points and attempted to return to the gag style, but ultimately it wasn't enough to overcome the serious tone that had evolved throughout the series. You can't successfully go backwards in a series like DB, you have to move forwards.

None of this is remotely accurate. The tone of the Buu arc isn't all that serious. It's a story where the villain is a big pink bubblegum monster. And tone shifts all the time. It's neither forward or backwards. It's just different. Returning to a lighter story is not moving backwards. Are you arguing the Buu arc is MORE serious or even just as serious as the Cell arc?

I know for a fact that the humor in DB is dirtier and more gaggy than the humor in Z and Súper.

As has been reitterated time and time again, you DON'T know this. You haven't watched DB. DB moves away from that style fairly rapidly.

[Soppa Saia People]

The focus in Z is on:
Adult (crucial difference to me) Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, adult (crucial) Krillin and Bulma, Piccolo, Dende.
The focus in DB is on:
Kid Goku, kid Krillin and Bulma, Roshi, Yamcha and the cat, Tenshinah and that strange thing that hangs next to him, the pig, Yayirobe, Launch.
Basically the gang from DB is shifted to the side while 3 major, totally new characters, plus the protagonist as an adult, take on the weight in Z. Which is the hilariously off base part?

i don't really get preferring adult goku to kid goku unless you mean boo arc goku, or it's a purely aesthetics type thing which is just...really silly ? it's also really really really silly to list oolong, puar, yajirobe, and chiaotzu as main characters, the first 2 are main characters in 13 episodes, yajirobe is basically as prevalent in the original series as he is in Z, and chiaotzu is a secondary antagonist in 1 arc and then barely a supporting character.

i mean seriously, goku from the Tao Pai Pai fight to the freeza arc is written basically the same way, and krillin has been the same character since the bacterian fight besides the romance angle that got added in the saiyan arc, is it just a aesthetics thing ? i know you haven't seen it, so your criticisms really don't mean a lot, but i'm legit confused.

[mute_proxy]

One and a half pages out of six actually following the topic. Can you guys stop doing that on every thread.

[MasenkoHA]

The focus in Z is on:
Adult (crucial difference to me) Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, adult (crucial) Krillin and Bulma, Piccolo, Dende.
The focus in DB is on:
Kid Goku, kid Krillin and Bulma, Roshi, Yamcha and the cat, Tenshinah and that strange thing that hangs next to him, the pig, Yayirobe, Launch.
Basically the gang from DB is shifted to the side while 3 major, totally new characters, plus the protagonist as an adult, take on the weight in Z. Which is the hilariously off base part?

I mean all if it. Who is the cat? Pu’erh? Karin? Neither are given much focus in Dragon Ball. Karin has like 2 small bits where he’s kinda significant he’s hardly a focus on the series.

Oolong (the pig) only matters in the very first arc

Launch isn’t a focus at all. She’s just there. Yadjirobe doesn’t appear until the Daimao arc and is only prominent there.

It doesn’t matter what you think, Goku and Krillin are the same characters as kids as they are adults. I know this fandom has an annoying fascination with treating Goku as a child as completely different character even always referring him to as Kid Goku like it’s his legal name (which I can’t stress enough how fucking annoying that is).


Your attempt at dividing the series by what you think the focus on what set of characters shows how silly trying to divide the series really is.

[MasenkoHA]

The tone was always evolving. Things were serious and dark before Piccolo, but not as serious and dark as what came afterwards.

The Saiyan-Cell sagas were really no darker or more serious than the Piccolo saga. Maybe the Cell saga.

As for the Boo saga, that was just as serious and dark as the previous arcs, perhaps even more so in many respects. Toriyama may have inserted some lighter plot points and attempted to return to the gag style, but ultimately it wasn't enough to overcome the serious tone that had evolved throughout the series. You can't successfully go backwards in a series like DB, you have to move forwards.

And you can maybe make the argument the reason the Boo saga wasn’t as well received was because it was Toriyama trying to go back to the gag roots but it was nowhere near as serious as previous arcs. It was Toriyama marrying the formula he set with the Piccolo arc to the gag roots of the series beginning.

The story starts with Gohan trying to play Super Hero and making an ass out of himself by doing Kamen Rider inspired speeches and poses. Then they find out the villain de jour is a bubblegum demon genie who can turn people into sweets. One of their trump cards is teaching two second graders a stupid dance to become one fused warriors. It has way more in common with the Red Ribbon saga as far as tone even if its formula is the same Daimao formula that the Saiyan, Freeza, and Cell arcs all aped from.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Look you two should just accept that dva_raza doesnt want to watch the OG Dragon Ball series. For all of your claims about him being "arrogant" you two dont come across as any less arrogant than he was.

[ABED]

Fine though I vehemently disagree with that last sentiment.

I do wonder what the stats are of how much of the series fans haven’t seen.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same damn anime. DBZ episode 1 is for all intents and purposes Dragon Ball episode 154 - it even gets a next episode preview and even has the Last House C-Team animating it because they were next in the rotation. Shit, DBZ, even continues using music from Dragon Ball well into the Buu saga. Dragon Ball has been phasing characters out from day one. Puar and Oolong were completely irrelevant after the first arc, sans Puar briefly being used in the Baba arc.

Tonally, there's no real difference between the Piccolo saga and the Saiyan saga. Now there are some differences - once we get to the Saiyan saga, elements from the "DB" section like the Martial Arts tournament disappear, but that's simply the evolution of the story. Goku finally won the tournament. That stage is over. But that doesn't mean the story is drastically different enough to delineate a different show.

Here's the truth of the matter - Toei wanted extra money for a new show and saw the time skip and the shiny new Gohan character as the perfect point to make Dragon Ball into a new show purely in name only so they wouldn't have to ACTUALLY come up with something new.

Dragon Ball Z is literally a scam

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same damn anime. DBZ episode 1 is for all intents and purposes Dragon Ball episode 154 - it even gets a next episode preview and even has the Last House C-Team animating it because they were next in the rotation. Shit, DBZ, even continues using music from Dragon Ball well into the Buu saga. Dragon Ball has been phasing characters out from day one. Puar and Oolong were completely irrelevant after the first arc, sans Puar briefly being used in the Baba arc.

Tonally, there's no real difference between the Piccolo saga and the Saiyan saga. Now there are some differences - once we get to the Saiyan saga, elements from the "DB" section like the Martial Arts tournament disappear, but that's simply the evolution of the story. Goku finally won the tournament. That stage is over. But that doesn't mean the story is drastically different enough to delineate a different show.

Here's the truth of the matter - Toei wanted extra money for a new show and saw the time skip and the shiny new Gohan character as the perfect point to make Dragon Ball into a new show purely in name only so they wouldn't have to ACTUALLY come up with something new.

Dragon Ball Z is literally a scam

I mean, back in late 1988/early 1989 in terms of the manga Toriyama was already on the Saiyan arc and Toei was just starting on the 23rd Budokai with the anime so they obviously knew that the time skip happened and were thinking of how to proceed when they reached that material in a few months time. They saw that the story skipped ahead five years and Goku was now a husband and father (and revealed as an alien) and thus along the way they decided to rebrand based on that for marketing purposes as a fresh new thing.

[dva_raza]

i know you haven't seen it, so your criticisms really don't mean a lot, but i'm legit confused

Right, you do seem confused. Let me be clear. I made exactly= zero critisims.
I was explaining my reasons for which I always found the show unnapealing, which is what the conversation is about.

i don't really get preferring adult goku to kid goku unless you mean boo arc goku, or it's a purely aesthetics type thing which is just...really silly ?

I would asume that me ading the word “crucial difference” would at the very least imply I’m obviously referring to something that trascends astetchics but I guess it didn’t. But yeah no, that was just a very random assumption that you made there.

i mean seriously, goku from the Tao Pai Pai fight to the freeza arc is written basically the same way, and krillin has been the same character since the bacterian fight besides the romance angle that got added in the saiyan arc, is it just a aesthetics thing ?

I'm pretty sure I've given more motives than it being "just a aesthetics thing".

It doesn’t matter what you think, Goku and Krillin are the same characters as kids as they are adults. I know this fandom has an annoying fascination with treating Goku as a child as completely different character even always referring him to as Kid Goku like it’s his legal name (which I can’t stress enough how fucking annoying that is).

My god!! I'm so sorry. How should I to call him? I have absolutely no idea about which fascinations the fandon has, like I mentioned in my first post I didn't follow this series for years until recently. I called him Kid Goku because I figured that would be a shorter way to indicate I’m talking about Goku as a kid.

As I have mentioned many times by now, I did see countless arbitraty scenes. Meaning, I have actually seen Goku in Dragon Ball many times, plus I did see GT.
If this is arrogant of me, so be it but I most definitly can make a distinction between Goku as a child and Goku as an adult just based on that. Maybe there’s a lack of sense to be able to percieve the change from your part but for you to presume that another person can’t that is you being arrogant as Cure Dragon said.
If you are a fan of both good for you but to insist that Goku as an adult and Goku as a child are the same character that’s really going overboard in denial. An adult character is not the same as the character as a kid just as I'm not the same at 24 as I was as a 12.
A character as an adult encompases not just different elements personality wise (obviously) but conveys different humor, different interactions, and also different situations in the story.
I don’t find kid Goku and all he encompases as appealing as Goku once he’s an adult not just for the new countless characteristics he adopts as an adult and that I really love like I dunno..him being a father, which is an aspect of him that attracts me (I disagree with the “bad father” thing), but also situational aspects in the story like him discovering his Saiyan nature, his conflict with Vegeta. That’s just some among maaany other stuff, seriously I could give a whole list. Adult Goku basically makes me feel things than Goku as a kid can’t convey and also makes a story that is more suited to what I like, also, fuck yeah, I like the design better, what’s wrong with that exactly? I'm pretty sure the arrogance is coming from anybody either trashing or talking down on another fan, not on the fan who is simply saying what parts abuot the franchise they like and what parts they don't.

Your attempt at dividing the series by what you think the focus on what set of characters shows how silly trying to divide the series really is

Ok, who is the focus on Dragon Ball? Is it kid Goku, Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi? Then I was correct and I'm ot sure what is "silly". If not, then who is? I'll be glad to be informed.
There's no attempt, the series are different. If they weren't there would have been absolutley no reasons for me to like one and dislike the other just based on the bits I saw.

If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

DB has all of that. The characters you love, the humor, and the story.

Generally speaking, on the rare occassion I've stopped watching shows I once enjoyed, it took time and a significant drop in quality. I didn't watch a few minutes and deduce (inaccurately) anything.

Uh yeah no..you didn't get my point. I wasn't talking about you.
I'm telling you something that literally happens, to people that general fandom comments and people a personally have heard this from. An example that comes to mind: The o.c, after Marissa is killed, the show still has the same protagonist, but the conflict is changed, the "replacements" are lame, etc, some people didn't care about continuing it. (that's just one example that comes to mind but I can think of more)

So do you, or does anybody else have an answer for this?

Spoiler:

a case in which someone no longer wants to continue a series specifically because changes in characters (or the focus) are made, and along with those, the story is also changed.
Like the characters they like being killed off, too many additions of characters that are unappealing, and the story begining to follow those characters the are uninteresting.(It’s still the same show though, and it’s part of the same story).
That scenario presents literally the same elements of your phrase: “Why would someone not want to watch the whole entirety of a show they love”.
- Someone loves a show - then doesn’t like the new route it has taken - stops watching - never finds out what happened to the same show they love - and don't care cause they're fine with knowing only the part that they did like.

Is that valid/understandable, or that would also be ‘illogical’?
If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

[MasenkoHA]

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same damn anime. DBZ episode 1 is for all intents and purposes Dragon Ball episode 154 - it even gets a next episode preview and even has the Last House C-Team animating it because they were next in the rotation. Shit, DBZ, even continues using music from Dragon Ball well into the Buu saga. Dragon Ball has been phasing characters out from day one. Puar and Oolong were completely irrelevant after the first arc, sans Puar briefly being used in the Baba arc.

Tonally, there's no real difference between the Piccolo saga and the Saiyan saga. Now there are some differences - once we get to the Saiyan saga, elements from the "DB" section like the Martial Arts tournament disappear, but that's simply the evolution of the story. Goku finally won the tournament. That stage is over. But that doesn't mean the story is drastically different enough to delineate a different show.

Here's the truth of the matter - Toei wanted extra money for a new show and saw the time skip and the shiny new Gohan character as the perfect point to make Dragon Ball into a new show purely in name only so they wouldn't have to ACTUALLY come up with something new.

Dragon Ball Z is literally a scam

QFT and accuracy

[Cure Dragon 255]

I literally cant believe this. I am a purist that started with OG Dragon Ball and hates how much DBZ has overshadowed the original and I still can accept that people just wont watch what they dont want to watch!

EDIT: I want to explicitly exclude jjgp from this statement. He's awesome.

[VegettoEX]

The topic has been lost to a great degree. There is worthwhile conversation happening, but this is not an appropriate thread for it. It seems the actual topic has run its course, so the thread will be locked. Please take a moment to reflect on the community guidelines. Thank you!