OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[Cure Dragon 255]

Look I know it hurts to see OG Dragon Ball get the shaft again and again. But even if you were introduced by Z or going even further than that not wanting to watch OG DB is not the unforgiveable sin people make it out to be. Let's stop with the gatekeeping please.

[jjgp1112]

The problem is that by missing the first third of the story, you're missing a ton of context and in generally just denying yourself of entertaining elements of Dragon Ball that helped shape the story, and people's reasoning for not watching it often don't make sense or hold up to scrutiny.

[ABED]

I don't know if it qualifies as gatekeeping. If someone watched DB and it wasn't their bag and doesn't want to see that part of the story ever again, then at least it's informed. Far too often I see people on here or other places that stubbornly refuse to see it because they claim all of DB is like the Pilaf arc. That's fine if that tone isn't your thing. It certainly wasn't JPN fans who read or watched the original run. But it's not true that the first series is that same tone and changes to the more serious battle driven with flying around and ki blasts when Raditz arrives.

I don't mind people not liking what I do, but it's the logic of their argument that I find odd sometimes.

This isn't a "you're not a true fan thing". It's I don't know why you refuse to go back and watch the genesis of the story.

If anyone's takeaway from this or my arguments in the previous thread was "I don't know why people don't like what I like" then I'm sorry I'm not as good at communicating what I mean to because that wasn't the point I was endeavoring to make.

[MasenkoHA]

Jjgp and Abed pretty much covered it. But, I’m just going to add that it’s not gatekeeping to point out how nonsensical it is to refuse to watch the first few years of a series that you’re a fan of. There is no other series when that mindset would ever apply.

And no a show like Power Rangers that basically reboots itself every year or two doesn’t count.

And as Abed pointed out too many fans think all of the original Dragon Ball is the Pilaf saga and it’s really not.

[ABED]

I rarely see someone say they gave it the college try but just can't power through the stuff they don't like to get to the stuff they know they will. I get that feeling though. Depending on how long it goes I don't think I could either, but If it's only for an arc or so, I think I would. Most of the time it's just "I have no interest in it", "I know what I need to know", "They are completely different shows", or "I don't like that gag manga, over the top silly humor"

[VegettoEX]

The real secret that fans don't want to admit:

All of these long-running series are specifically crafted and editorially-meddled with in order to make it easy for new fans to jump in at any given time. You can't cultivate an ever-growing audience (which you need for long-term sustainability) if you alienate them by not providing any logical, easy on-boarding route. Time skips, arc breaks, etc. are natural and perfect for this.

The super-secret that companies don't want to admit:

They don't always do a particularly good job at this. In the case of Dragon Ball specifically, there's a real goddamn lack of celebration of its roots that in turn creates a cycle of "it's not important" / "but it is" / "but they don't promote it enough so it clearly isn't".

It's better today than it's ever been, though. When it comes to series like One Piece, there are a million ways to on-board new fans. You would never know this because most international fans don't actually buy things and have no idea what exists outside their narrow vision, but magazines like Saikyo Jump are entirely built around on-boarding new (younger) fans. They often come with supplemental books that cover specific characters, arcs, etc. in order to get you up-to-speed. I'm looking at one all about Chopper right in front of me. Dragon Ball SD is another perfect example of this... which isn't relevant to anyone here, because you're not a young child in Japan, you probably can't read Japanese, and you're probably not buying magazines.

The eternal fan argument:

"Well, **I** was able to start at Z and I was fine!"

"Sure, but what did it mean to you when Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaiotzu showed up? Nothing, of course, because you had no idea who they were."

"But I can and did go backward and got all that context. So can/did you."

"Sure, but it would have been infinitely more meaningful if you or I had that context to start with, and I wish I did."

"But if you start at the beginning of the series it's not representative of what the series later becomes."

"Sure, but how much time am I supposed to invest in something to give it a fair shake? 13 episodes? 26 episodes? 153 episodes? My time is valuable."

"But you wouldn't start at the third Star Wars movie, the fourth Harry Potter book, etc. etc. etc."

"Have you colored the right fan the right way? I think you lost the thread here."

In case you can't tell, I've seen, heard, and said it all myself.

In summary, no-one's right, everyone's right, and just do whatever the heck you want to do. I think there's a fair point to make, though, that if you don't go back and consume the prior material, you're really in no spot to be making calls about narrative flow, characterization, etc. from a holistic perspective across the entire original story. That's OK -- you don't have to read or watch it if you don't want, but again, you're really in no position to be making statements you can't back up with any substance at all.

[JulieYBM]

When I openly joined the queer community I learned of the importance of not gatekeeping one's experiences. I like to try and apply that open-mindedness to other things, especially hobbies. As such, I've taken to taking the position that one's take is not really for me to judge. Fandom is a lot like life I'm general because it grows and evolves from various different events in one's life. As such, if one doesn't care for one part of a franchise--even if that means not even watching it--I can understand their desire. Life is so fleeting, it can be difficult to find the time to watch the specific episodes and films one is really interested in, let alone those that one is not interested it.

[Adamant]

Jjgp and Abed pretty much covered it. But, I’m just going to add that it’s not gatekeeping to point out how nonsensical it is to refuse to watch the first few years of a series that you’re a fan of. There is no other series when that mindset would ever apply.

The Simpsons. Quite a lot of people treat the original shorts as an unimportant footnote not worth bothering with despite the fact that they actually do introduce a lot of key elements. And they WERE what caught the audience's attention enough to get expanded into a full length show.
Hell, you even got the same thing as with Dragonball where people watch the first short and then assume all the others have the exact same character designs, with the characters getting their modern designs when the full length show started. Not the case at all.

[MetaMoss]

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Ball should be fun, and "fun" can look very different depending on the person. I've gotten my fun out of the entirety of the series, and I'd certainly encourage someone to check out pre-Z if they haven't, but forcing the issue beyond a recommendation seems counter to the entire reason one should go experience it for. This is entertainment, it shouldn't feel like a chore or homework.

For anyone reading this who's only seen Z onward and is hesitant to checking out the OG, I'd say give the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs a look. They're basically proto-Z in their style, so I think they'll scratch the itch that you might initially think pre-Z doesn't.

[MyVisionity]

If people don't like or aren't interested in the earlier parts of the stories, they skip it. It happens all the time. I wouldn't call that "nonsensical" exactly. It happens with television seasons, film series. Not that it necessarily should, but it does.

I'd also like to point out that DB and DBZ are two different animes. Regardless of the manga that it is based on. That makes it all the more easier for people to pick and choose which series they would like to start with. And I also think that the tonal shift is clear. Not only does the tone change, but the story and characters as well. Enough to separate the two shows. Even if it were simply marketing, marketing is powerful. Branding is significant and has reach. It's a determining factor for a whole lot of viewers.

As for the Boo saga, that was just as serious and dark as the previous arcs, perhaps even more so in many respects. Toriyama may have inserted some lighter plot points and attempted to return to the gag style, but ultimately it wasn't enough to overcome the serious tone that had evolved throughout the series. You can't successfully go backwards in a series like DB, you have to move forwards.

None of this is remotely accurate. The tone of the Buu arc isn't all that serious. It's a story where the villain is a big pink bubblegum monster. And tone shifts all the time. It's neither forward or backwards. It's just different. Returning to a lighter story is not moving backwards. Are you arguing the Buu arc is MORE serious or even just as serious as the Cell arc?

Yeah, I'd argue that the Boo arc is just as serious as the earlier Z-arcs. And maybe the Piccolo arc. In some ways, it's darker, and certainly bleaker.

But the larger point is that despite Majin Boo being a pink and silly genie and Gotenks antics etcetera, it still manages to maintain the serious direction that the series had taken. That's because you can't go backwards, only forwards. Manga like this has to evolve and progress, and that includes the tone just as much as the characters, story, or anything else. There is no true return to a lighter story. It's not possible, at least not without undermining the integrity and credibility of the series.

[CuppaKofe]

My boss recently got into Dragon Ball and was told to skip the OG by his friends. I was telling him about how awesome Tenshinhan was when he first showed up, and he's actually pretty salty because he just assumed he was always a nothing character. He's not wrong about Ten's role in Z, but he's much more interested in watching the OG.

It isn't gatekeeping to hype up OG Dragon Ball, sometimes it helps as long as you aren't being weird about it.

[VegettoEX]

It isn't gatekeeping to hype up OG Dragon Ball, sometimes it helps as long as you aren't being weird about it.

"Gatekeeping" gets tossed around as a boogeyman word so much that it's kinda lost all meaning, so I think this is a really great point, and a great way to phrase it: be cool about it and hype up what you like and the awesome expanding world that's available... instead of focusing on "but you didn't ______".

[PurestEvil]

The eternal fan argument:

"Well, **I** was able to start at Z and I was fine!"

"Sure, but what did it mean to you when Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaiotzu showed up? Nothing, of course, because you had no idea who they were."

"But I can and did go backward and got all that context. So can/did you."

"Sure, but it would have been infinitely more meaningful if you or I had that context to start with, and I wish I did."

"But if you start at the beginning of the series it's not representative of what the series later becomes."

"Sure, but how much time am I supposed to invest in something to give it a fair shake? 13 episodes? 26 episodes? 153 episodes? My time is valuable."

"But you wouldn't start at the third Star Wars movie, the fourth Harry Potter book, etc. etc. etc."

"Have you colored the right fan the right way? I think you lost the thread here."

In case you can't tell, I've seen, heard, and said it all myself.

That made me laugh. It reads like something Toriyama would write ngl.

[dva_raza]

Cure Dragon, thank you

The problem is that by missing the first third of the story, you're missing a ton of context and in generally just denying yourself of entertaining elements of Dragon Ball that helped shape the story, and people's reasoning for not watching it often don't make sense or hold up to scrutiny.

And I have explained many times throughout the previous thread that I won't find it entertaining and that I don't need more context that the one I know to either understand or enjoy Z or Super better. You ar insistant in thinking that I'm "missing entretainment" when I am not cause it won't be "entertaining" for me, because of the countless aspects that I spoke about in detail (my explanation about why I like Goku (and Krillin and Bulma for that matter) as adults better adds the most recent ones)
The point is: I want to watch things that I know I will like and this I know that I won't.

I said several times:
I saw a glimpse of Z and I wanted to see more. I saw many glimpses of DB and never felt the interest to see more.
Like really, I used to catch bits of Dragon Ball frequently while with Z I only saw 2 moments of it, and that was enough for me to want to follow it.

You assume that I'm adamant for no reason, when there is a simple reason and that is that I can’t decide what interests me it just happens or it doesn't.What I'm sensing from most is either a confusion with or just a disbelief that a person doesn't need to see the whole thing of something to be able to have a sense of what it is or simply to know if they are interested.

You ask "how can I know if I haven't seen it" and I've said:
In the very same way you know your interested in something or not interested from watching just a scene. A moment of it. A trailer. Etc. You see something and if it has elements that are to you taste or spark curiosity, whether it’s something about the story, something about the characters or just something about the style of it, and you’re drawn to it, like what happend in the case with Z, and the same thing happens in the opposite way like the case with Dragon Ball OG. If bothe shows were "THE SAME", then obviously I would have been inclined to watch THAT show way before I catched a glimpse of Z.


As for the CONTEXT .
I said this in the reply to Anonymous Friend to the context of Roshi that he brought up and I think it makes as a good example to make my point:

Why would I need context on Roshi when he's barely present in Z and Super? It’s not like I don’t know who he is. I have the basics. I don’t need to see his full story to somehow enjoy or understand Z and Super better.
But here's an irony: He said:

Roshi with just be a perv who tries to get frisky with all the females.

While a person would exist with none of the context, why would any reasonable person want to?

And the thing is I don't see Roshi as "just a perv who tries to get frisky with all the females" precisely because I never saw OG. I mean, I am aware of that aspect of him, but since I missed most of those scenes, the image I have of him is predominantly as the quirky master and mentor of Goku and Krillin.
Most of you basically seem to think that if one doesn't have that context, then, citing Annonymous Friend: "over half the characters would just be standing around doing nothing and I have no clue of their actual importance." And it's just NOT the case.
And the same goes for the other characters besides Rosh, I don’t need to see the “full context” to experience Z and Super better.
The only exception would be Piccolo, and not even because it’s needed but because it's the one character from the OG that I do find intriguing, which is why I have said that I will watch the arc that explains his origin, because HIS context I am interested in. Still, I don't need to do it to understand and enjoy either him or the Z/Super series.
And if I know I won't enjoy the series WHY would I watch that?

Regarding the Goku as an adult "being the same" as as a kid.
I feel that's an important aspect in this discussion so I'd like to copy my previously given response to for anyone who shares this thought:

It doesn’t matter what you think, Goku and Krillin are the same characters as kids as they are adults.

Spoiler:

As I have mentioned many times by now, I did see countless arbitrary scenes. Meaning, I have actually seen Goku in Dragon Ball many times, plus I did see GT.

If this is arrogant of me, so be it but I most definitly can make a distinction between Goku as a child and Goku as an adult just based on that. Maybe there’s a lack of sense to be able to percieve the change from your part but for you to presume that another person can’t that is you being arrogant as Cure Dragon said.
If you are a fan of both good for you but to insist that Goku as an adult and Goku as a child are the same character that’s really going overboard in denial. An adult character is not the same as the character as a kid just as I'm not the same at 24 as I was as a 12.
A character as an adult encompases not just different elements personality wise (obviously) but conveys different humor, different interactions, and also different situations in the story.
I don’t find kid Goku and all he encompases as appealing as Goku once he’s an adult not just for the new countless characteristics he adopts as an adult and that I really love like I dunno..him being a father, which is an aspect of him that attracts me (I disagree with the “bad father” thing), but also situational aspects in the story like him discovering his Saiyan nature, his conflict with Vegeta. That’s just some among maaany other stuff, seriously I could give a whole list. Adult Goku basically makes me feel things than Goku as a kid can’t convey and also makes a story that is more suited to what I like, also, fuck yeah, I like the design better, what’s wrong with that exactly? I'm pretty sure the arrogance is coming from anybody either trashing or talking down on another fan, not on the fan who is simply saying what parts abuot the franchise they like and what parts they don't or are not interested in cause it's not their style.

Having said that, I asked, is the focus in Dragon Ball on someone other than kid Goku, Krillin, Bulma and Roshi?
Because if it is, then that's why I'm not interested in the characters, if it isn't then who is the focus on?

Regarding other aspects here's a summary about what drives me off:
I know tht the story in DB is largely following the adventures of Goku, Bulma and the others which is just not to my taste, I don't like "kids having adventures" kinda like the first arc of GT. I'm not saying it's bad it's just not the kind of thing I enjoy watching, andas for the fights, though I do like quite a lot the grounded combat, the thing with Z’s fighting being evolved to such levels makes the DB fights seem obsolete
The humor, ABED has insisted that the gag humor is still present in Z and Super and I really don't think so based on my having seen Super and Z, and based on seeing MANY instances of gaggy and dirty humor in Dragon Ball.

Anyway, I overall think whatever I'm saying is getting under your people's skins more than it should. The conversation started because I made the mention that I never saw the OG (and briefly explained why), ABED asked, how could I possibly know what I'm missing if I haven't seen it, to which I responded and expanded on what are the motives for which I don't find Dragon Ball to be to my taste and from the begining I clarified that those omtives are based on the observations that I have from the bits that I see, I want to make clear, again, that I never pretended to make comments of deeper aspects that I can't know of, anything I've said so far are literal observations, not random assumtions, and it's not "criticisms", they are simply the things that I personally wasn't drawn to and I'm capable of defining that fact, that it doesn't have elements that draw me it and I don't have a need to see something like that, yes, even if it's part of a story that I like.
What seems unnecesary is to call me arrogant for any of that or for saying that I can sense (accurately) if I'm going to like something or dislike something beforehand.


And that thought brings me to this question that nobody has yet responded yet and I'd love to have an answer just out out curiosity.

Spoiler:

If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

Generally speaking, on the rare occassion I've stopped watching shows I once enjoyed, it took time and a significant drop in quality. I didn't watch a few minutes and deduce (inaccurately) anything.

Uh yeah no..you didn't get my point. I wasn't talking about you.
I'm telling you something that literally happens, to people that general fandom comments and people a personally have heard this from. An example that comes to mind: The o.c, after Marissa is killed, the show still has the same protagonist, but the conflict is changed, the "replacements" are lame, etc, some people didn't care about continuing it. (that's just one example that comes to mind but I can think of more)

So do you, or does anybody else have an answer for this?

Spoiler:

a case in which someone no longer wants to continue a series specifically because changes in characters (or the focus) are made, and along with those, the story is also changed.
Like the characters they like being killed off, too many additions of characters that are unappealing, and the story begining to follow those characters the are uninteresting.(It’s still the same show though, and it’s part of the same story).

That scenario presents literally the same elements of your phrase:
“Why would someone not want to watch the whole entirety of a show they love”.:
- Someone loves a show - then doesn’t like the new route it has taken - stops watching it - never finds out what happened - don't care, they are fine with knowing only the part of the show that they did like.

Is that valid/understandable, or that would also be ‘arrogant’?
If you would think it’s valid, what is exactly the difference between that, and my situation ?

Edits- don't want to leave this unanswered,

Tenshinhan of all characters isn't a comedic character.

I never said Tenshinah was a comedic character.

The good Piccolo is the same person from the end of DB, just later in his development but that development is given greater weight by EXPERIENCING it from the beginning.

I know, so the ending, that sounds like the series...ended, which is why I said Piccolo in Z is good Piccolo (and the one I like).
Regarding the second highlighted part, cool, that's why I said I will watch those arcs, because that IS a character who's context I am interested in.

[Vijay]

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Ball should be fun, and "fun" can look very different depending on the person. I've gotten my fun out of the entirety of the series, and I'd certainly encourage someone to check out pre-Z if they haven't, but forcing the issue beyond a recommendation seems counter to the entire reason one should go experience it for. This is entertainment, it shouldn't feel like a chore or homework.

For anyone reading this who's only seen Z onward and is hesitant to checking out the OG, I'd say give the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs a look. They're basically proto-Z in their style, so I think they'll scratch the itch that you might initially think pre-Z doesn't.

Very nice post.

If only Toriyama, or anime DB/DBZ series director/script writers could see this thread...

Og DB is definetly a great series and anyone who misses it can be considered rather unfortunate as they're missing-out a classic, along the lines of yyh, rurourin kenshin, slamdunk

I've met dudes in Twitter & FB who actively indulge in DB vs DBZ, and I'll be "guys, chill. They're essentially the same show". Its not like Goku turns into Krillin & Muten Roshi turns into Vegeta in Z

To DBZ junkies that crave for action, TB (21st-23rd TB) & Daimou Arc got it covered, albeit they're martial arts like in Jackie Chun muvies

U want humor, its all over DB

U want adventure..well its DB bruh...it IS an adventure abt collecting DB

U want plot? RRA, Daimou, 22nd & 23rd TB Arc for ya.

Its a cool show. But its also pretty easy to see how certain section of fanbase gravitate towards planet busting chi blasts & flashy Godly transformations. Each to their own. Cool

[MasenkoHA]

I'd also like to point out that DB and DBZ are two different animes.

Just out of curiosity would you say Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon R are two different animes? Or Naruto and Naruto Shippuden?

. That makes it all the more easier for people to pick and choose which series they would like to start with. And I also think that the tonal shift is clear. Not only does the tone change, but the story and characters as well. Enough to separate the two shows. Even if it were simply marketing, marketing is powerful. Branding is significant and has reach. It's a determining factor for a whole lot of viewers.

Here’s the thing the tone doesn’t shift from where Dragon Ball left off. Like at all. There’s a shift in dynamics . Goku is now a father and is revealed to be an alien from a warrior race. The even split is not “Dragon Ball was a goofy gag comedy and Z is the mostly serious follow up” the even split is Dragon Ball Z has Gohan and Vegeta and Dragon Ball does not.

The tonal shift happened in the Tenshinhan arc. And even before that the Red Ribbon saga was slowly moving away from the gag series beginnings.


[

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

No amount of sugarcoating will change the fact that skipping the first third of the story is losing content that builds and strenghts the pathos people enjoy from the Z portion of the story. If you really enjoy and love Z, then why would you deprive yourself of stuff that would make you love Z even more?

[JulieYBM]

I didn't get into Dragon Ball through the beginning of the season 1986 cartoon or the 1984 comic. I got into Dragon Ball through a shitty dub airing on the US Cartoon Network in October 1998. While yes, I did eventually watch the aforementioned series and read the aforementioned comic had I chosen not to and still decided to refer to myself as a Dragon Ball fan would I really need to be challenged as to how I chose to describe myself?

Time is valuable and while I would personally talk about that which I like such is no different for someone with no interest in the 1986 cartoon or Dragon Ball GT. I don't think it's fair to judge anyone in that respect, especially from Dragon Ball Z has plenty pf strengths for an audience to latch onto, as I did at the time.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The first arc of the series i can kinda see, because the Pilaf section HEAVILY leans on the kind of gag comedy that Toriyama indulged in for all of Dr. Slump. However it very quickly moves past that and then the action-y tone really starts to set in. In particular, the 22nd, Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are more or less comparable to Z even without Super Saiyans, intergalactic battles and the overly sci fi vibe that was introduced starting in the Saiyan arc.

At least give the later arcs a try, and even the earlier stuff if gag comedy doesn’t turn you off.

[ABED]

I don't think the point being made by anyone was that you have to start DB at the beginning. Nowadays it's much easier because of streaming, but prior, most of us got into shows as the train was in motion. What I find interesting is that now that we live in a time where the cost of going back to the start is almost 0, I don't know why anyone fights it.

A trailer for a movie is not remotely the same thing as 1 scene from an entire 153 episode series. It's FAR easier to sell a tone and a feel of a 2 hour film than it is to a long running serialized show that changes tone and even genres over the course of over 100 episodes.

I do like quite a lot the grounded combat, the thing with Z’s fighting being evolved to such levels makes the DB fights seem obsolete

Because they can fly? That's also present in DB.

And I did answer your question about having stopped watching a series. It's not the same thing as not watching something from the beginning. A fundamental difference is that if a show falls off in quality because of any number of issues, including an actor leaving, or a character being killed off (a situation implied by my previous post), then there's a risk the show won't get better after a while. It might but most likely won't. However, if you are talking about a show you know you enjoy, you know for a fact that the show will get better and at what point you enjoy it. it's comparing an actuality and a possibility.

I know, so the ending, that sounds like the series...ended, which is why I said Piccolo in Z is good Piccolo (and the one I like).

They're the same character. I don't understand your distinction. It's just a sequel series.

but also situational aspects in the story like him discovering his Saiyan nature

A discover that has no dramatic weight if you don't experience the character prior.