OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[MetaMoss]

To everyone who's saying that people's reasons for not watching pre-Z "don't make sense", "aren't reasonable". etc., I'd like you to consider the quote that goes something like "You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into." Now, this will be my first time ever seeing this quote used in a non-negative context, because in this case, that's okay. Taste, by it's very nature, is not a reasoned position.

Sure, I can present a reasonable argument that elements X and Y drive my enjoyment of series Z, while elements A and B lead me to drop series C after the first episode, but the question of why X and Y are good in my eyes while A and B aren't ultimately is not a question answered by reasoning and logic. Sure, we could dig into stuff like how I grew up enjoying stuff with X or that Y really speaks to some lived experience I've had, while I've found A overdone and B offensive to my sensibilities, but it still comes down to "I like X, don't like B".

Perhaps the closest we could get to a fully logical explanation of why you or I like or don't like something is having a neuroscientist hooking one of us up to an MRI scanner, putting on the Gohan vs. Cell fight, and figuring out which moments lead to the brain pumping in the most dopamine, but I hardly think that would add too much to this conversation

[ABED]

To everyone who's saying that people's reasons for not watching pre-Z "don't make sense", "aren't reasonable". etc., I'd like you to consider the quote that goes something like "You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into." Now, this will be my first time ever seeing this quote used in a non-negative context, because in this case, that's okay. Taste, by it's very nature, is not a reasoned position.

Sure, I can present a reasonable argument that elements X and Y drive my enjoyment of series Z, while elements A and B lead me to drop series C after the first episode, but the question of why X and Y are good in my eyes while A and B aren't ultimately is not a question answered by reasoning and logic. Sure, we could dig into stuff like how I grew up enjoying stuff with X or that Y really speaks to some lived experience I've had, while I've found A overdone and B offensive to my sensibilities, but it still comes down to "I like X, don't like B".

Perhaps the closest we could get to a fully logical explanation of why you or I like or don't like something is having a neuroscientist hooking one of us up to an MRI scanner, putting on the Gohan vs. Cell fight, and figuring out which moments lead to the brain pumping in the most dopamine, but I hardly think that would add too much to this conversation

But this isn't a matter of taste. This is a matter of people characterizing the original series as 1 thing which is highly inaccurate. Of course taste is subjective. Are we not clear on this point? We're not calling into question anyone's taste for thinking the latter part of the story is better. I don't think I'm going out on a limb that many of those of the same view as myself enjoy some of the latter arcs more than a few of the arcs in DB. My favorite arc in all of DB is the Saiyan arc. But that's fundamentally different from saying the Saiyan arc bears very resemblance to what came before.

[MyVisionity]

I'd also like to point out that DB and DBZ are two different animes.

Just out of curiosity would you say Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon R are two different animes? Or Naruto and Naruto Shippuden?

Naruto definitely two different animes. Sailor Moon, no, only technically. That's a different situation since they retitle every arc but don't make any significant shifts.

That makes it all the more easier for people to pick and choose which series they would like to start with. And I also think that the tonal shift is clear. Not only does the tone change, but the story and characters as well. Enough to separate the two shows. Even if it were simply marketing, marketing is powerful. Branding is significant and has reach. It's a determining factor for a whole lot of viewers.

Here’s the thing the tone doesn’t shift from where Dragon Ball left off. Like at all. There’s a shift in dynamics . Goku is now a father and is revealed to be an alien from a warrior race. The even split is not “Dragon Ball was a goofy gag comedy and Z is the mostly serious follow up” the even split is Dragon Ball Z has Gohan and Vegeta and Dragon Ball does not.

The tonal shift happened in the Tenshinhan arc. And even before that the Red Ribbon saga was slowly moving away from the gag series beginnings.

The tonal shift was gradual, yes. And that includes between the 23rd Budoukai and Saiyan arcs. The latter is more serious than the former.

I agree that the story and characters shifted as well. All the more reason for a split.

[ABED]

But it's not a matter of forward or back. Plenty of shows change direction and then return, and do it well. The 23rd TB is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than the preceding arc. It's smart. It can't just be a series of getting more and more serious. There's no contrast.

[MetaMoss]

But this isn't a matter of taste. This is a matter of people characterizing the original series as 1 thing which is highly inaccurate. Of course taste is subjective. Are we not clear on this point? We're not calling into question anyone's taste for thinking the latter part of the story is better. I don't think I'm going out on a limb that many of those of the same view as myself enjoy some of the latter arcs more than a few of the arcs in DB. My favorite arc in all of DB is the Saiyan arc. But that's fundamentally different from saying the Saiyan arc bears very resemblance to what came before.

The point I'm trying to make is that saying to someone, "Your stated reasons for not liking/wanting to experience this are factually wrong" is in no way an effective means to get someone excited about watching a cartoon.

[ABED]

But this isn't a matter of taste. This is a matter of people characterizing the original series as 1 thing which is highly inaccurate. Of course taste is subjective. Are we not clear on this point? We're not calling into question anyone's taste for thinking the latter part of the story is better. I don't think I'm going out on a limb that many of those of the same view as myself enjoy some of the latter arcs more than a few of the arcs in DB. My favorite arc in all of DB is the Saiyan arc. But that's fundamentally different from saying the Saiyan arc bears very resemblance to what came before.

The point I'm trying to make is that saying to someone, "Your stated reasons for not liking/wanting to experience this are factually wrong" is in no way an effective means to get someone excited about watching a cartoon.

Fair enough. Though at this point I care less that they watch it than they just stop making and spreading demonstrably false claims.

[MasenkoHA]

But this isn't a matter of taste. This is a matter of people characterizing the original series as 1 thing which is highly inaccurate. Of course taste is subjective. Are we not clear on this point? We're not calling into question anyone's taste for thinking the latter part of the story is better. I don't think I'm going out on a limb that many of those of the same view as myself enjoy some of the latter arcs more than a few of the arcs in DB. My favorite arc in all of DB is the Saiyan arc. But that's fundamentally different from saying the Saiyan arc bears very resemblance to what came before.

The point I'm trying to make is that saying to someone, "Your stated reasons for not liking/wanting to experience this are factually wrong" is in no way an effective means to get someone excited about watching a cartoon.

I’m really not trying to get anyone excited to watch Dragon Ball believe or not. My reaction is the same as any case of someone saying “I’m a big fan of X show but I’ve only watched season 4 onwards. I see no point in watching season 1-3!!!”


And tbh I think the same people dismissing Dragon Ball as optional would clutch their pearls if someone said they’re a fan of Dragon Ball Super but never watched the other shows. “How can you watch Dragon Ball Super without having seen Z?!?”


Actually, something like that did happen. When Nicktoons decided to run GT to follow up on Kai’s success fans were complaining it would confuse viewers who hadn’t seen the Buu saga, as if they didn’t get a much worse version of that when they were introduced to Z with only having seen the first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at most.


And to be clear

There’s nothing wrong with preferring Z

There’s nothing wrong with only revisiting Z. Hell if you decided you only like the Cell saga and just rewatch those 77 episodes there’s nothing wrong with that

But I am gonna side eye you when you say “I’m a fan of Dragon Ball Z but refuse to watch its first 3 years that lead into it”

[Soppa Saia People]

I'd also like to point out that DB and DBZ are two different animes.

Just out of curiosity would you say Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon R are two different animes? Or Naruto and Naruto Shippuden?

i mean i would, they have different directors and writers, and the way they adapted the manga is different. yeah it's the same Series, but they are two different anime, and most people treat the 1st season, the 3 ikuni seasons and stars as different shows and not just different arcs...because they kinda are.

for the record i'd consider dragon ball and dragon ball z different as well, the story is still dragon ball, 1 series, but the way the show was made had a fairly significant change around the start of Z and as a result was made a bit differently. yeah you can argue that's arbitrary because Z itself changed stuff, but if the split is there, yeah i think it makes sense to consider them different anime.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I agree that we shouldn't look down on people who aren't interested in the original series, or treat it like its some sort of mortal sin to not watch it, but if someone likes Z I don't know why they shouldn't at least give it a try.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. If someone watches a large portion of the original series, preferably all 153 episodes, but even if they just watch the first 102 episodes then at least they've gave it a chance. And as others have said the Piccolo arc is just as dark, serious and action-packed as the Z arcs are, so once you've watched up to it or stopped watching close to it (like episode 90 or so) you can easily keep going and get hooked.

Hell a lot of One Piece fans stand by saying "it gets really good after 100 episodes". Surely we can say Dragon Ball is worth sticking around to get to "the really good stuff" too.

I prefer Z myself, and find some of the humour in OG Dragon Ball, particularly from Master Roshi and characters like Bacterian has aged poorly, but it's worth it for seeing how characters like Goku, Bulma and Yamcha grow, and getting to know characters that were largely or completely sidelined in Z like Oolong or Lunch.

[ABED]

I prefer Z myself, and find some of the humour in OG Dragon Ball, particularly from Master Roshi and characters like Bacterian has aged poorly,

The Muten Roshi sexual assault as humor hasn't aged well but Bacterian's toilet humor is timeless. Scatological humor is still popular with children.

[jjgp1112]

The first arc of the series i can kinda see, because the Pilaf section HEAVILY leans on the kind of gag comedy that Toriyama indulged in for all of Dr. Slump. However it very quickly moves past that and then the action-y tone really starts to set in. In particular, the 22nd, Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are more or less comparable to Z even without Super Saiyans, intergalactic battles and the overly sci fi vibe that was introduced starting in the Saiyan arc.

At least give the later arcs a try, and even the earlier stuff if gag comedy doesn’t turn you off.

Yeah I fell like you can take or leave the Pilaf arc, but the 21st tournament arc is ESSENTIAL viewing to understanding everything about DBs style and ethos. It sets the foundation and if you're skipping it just because it seems too goofy, well, your loss! It's the same show and the same characters behaving how you'd expect them to, just sillier. And if you can stand to watch the Buu saga or Super, you can watch The 21st Tournament.

[MasenkoHA]

Hell a lot of One Piece fans stand by saying "it gets really good after 100 episodes". Surely we can say Dragon Ball is worth sticking around to get to "the really good stuff" too.

I’m gonna be honest, I find that mentality insane.

Yeah if you stick with it for 100 episodes then it becomes something worth watching!

[capsulecorp]

It's important to keep in mind that DBZ is just... part of Dragon Ball. There isn't really two "parts". That said, people should watch what they like, and not watch what they don't! The proper response to people who choose to skip the first third of the story is pity.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The first arc of the series i can kinda see, because the Pilaf section HEAVILY leans on the kind of gag comedy that Toriyama indulged in for all of Dr. Slump. However it very quickly moves past that and then the action-y tone really starts to set in. In particular, the 22nd, Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are more or less comparable to Z even without Super Saiyans, intergalactic battles and the overly sci fi vibe that was introduced starting in the Saiyan arc.

At least give the later arcs a try, and even the earlier stuff if gag comedy doesn’t turn you off.

Yeah I fell like you can take or leave the Pilaf arc, but the 21st tournament arc is ESSENTIAL viewing to understanding everything about DBs style and ethos. It sets the foundation and if you're skipping it just because it seems too goofy, well, your loss! It's the same show and the same characters behaving how you'd expect them to, just sillier. And if you can stand to watch the Buu saga or Super, you can watch The 21st Tournament.

No i personally don't skip it, now for other fans their mileage on it may vary.

[jjgp1112]

The first arc of the series i can kinda see, because the Pilaf section HEAVILY leans on the kind of gag comedy that Toriyama indulged in for all of Dr. Slump. However it very quickly moves past that and then the action-y tone really starts to set in. In particular, the 22nd, Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are more or less comparable to Z even without Super Saiyans, intergalactic battles and the overly sci fi vibe that was introduced starting in the Saiyan arc.

At least give the later arcs a try, and even the earlier stuff if gag comedy doesn’t turn you off.

Yeah I fell like you can take or leave the Pilaf arc, but the 21st tournament arc is ESSENTIAL viewing to understanding everything about DBs style and ethos. It sets the foundation and if you're skipping it just because it seems too goofy, well, your loss! It's the same show and the same characters behaving how you'd expect them to, just sillier. And if you can stand to watch the Buu saga or Super, you can watch The 21st Tournament.

No i personally don't skip it, now for other fans their mileage on it may vary.

Oh no no, when I said your after that I was speaking purely in second person, not addressing you specifically haha. My bad.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Yeah I fell like you can take or leave the Pilaf arc, but the 21st tournament arc is ESSENTIAL viewing to understanding everything about DBs style and ethos. It sets the foundation and if you're skipping it just because it seems too goofy, well, your loss! It's the same show and the same characters behaving how you'd expect them to, just sillier. And if you can stand to watch the Buu saga or Super, you can watch The 21st Tournament.

No i personally don't skip it, now for other fans their mileage on it may vary.

Oh no no, when I said your after that I was speaking purely in second person, not addressing you specifically haha. My bad.

Nah it's fine man, i realize that you weren't directly referring to me. But yes, i can see skipping the first 13 episodes but after that not so much:.

[90sDBZ]

In an ideal world everyone would watch it first.

But getting someone to commit to a long running series is asking a lot given how busy people's lives are, and how many other shows are competing for their attention. Plus a lot of people are just impatient. First impressions are crucial, and are the deciding factor for many people on the fence about a show. Many will decide based on the first 1-3 episodes.

Truthfully some people care more about the superficial stuff, at least at first. It's entirely possible for someone to start watching for the OTT action and the cool transformations, but ultimately keep watching because they grow to love the characters. Although I'm sure there are some who only care for the former.

At the end of the day I'd rather someone skip ahead and potentially go back later than them never get into the series at all.

Of course there's also the pacing issues Z has itself, which could also be a major turnoff for some. If I were trying to get someone into the series I'd most likely suggest Kai, and I say that as someone who prefers Z. Kai is a much faster watch, and at least briefly recaps the events of DB. I'd tell them OG DB is worth watching, but if they decide it's not for them then skipping to Kai is the way to go.

[capsulecorp]

Of course there's also the pacing issues Z has itself, which could also be a major turnoff for some. If I were trying to get someone into the series I'd most likely suggest Kai, and I say that as someone who prefers Z. Kai is a much faster watch, and at least briefly recaps the events of DB. I'd tell them OG DB is worth watching, but if they decide it's not for them then skipping to Kai is the way to go.

This is a really important point. While DB pre-Z does have some filler, there's a lot less, it's easier to skip as it tends not to be interspersed with the "real" story, and it's also generally of much higher quality if you DO end up watching it. I've actually met a lot of people who completely dismiss Dragon Ball due to what can be a very poor experience attempting to watch DBZ, and to those people I say... skip DBZ, start from episode one!

[WittyUsername]

Skipping OG DragonBall doesn’t make much sense. It’s not a supplemental prequel series. It’s the first section of the story. I’m not going to insult or ostracize anyone who chooses to skip it, but they’d be missing a lot of the context if they did that.

[Dr. Casey]

Regarding the Goku as an adult "being the same" as as a kid.
I feel that's an important aspect in this discussion so I'd like to copy my previously given response to for anyone who shares this thought:

It doesn’t matter what you think, Goku and Krillin are the same characters as kids as they are adults.

Spoiler:

As I have mentioned many times by now, I did see countless arbitrary scenes. Meaning, I have actually seen Goku in Dragon Ball many times, plus I did see GT.

If this is arrogant of me, so be it but I most definitly can make a distinction between Goku as a child and Goku as an adult just based on that. Maybe there’s a lack of sense to be able to percieve the change from your part but for you to presume that another person can’t that is you being arrogant as Cure Dragon said.
If you are a fan of both good for you but to insist that Goku as an adult and Goku as a child are the same character that’s really going overboard in denial. An adult character is not the same as the character as a kid just as I'm not the same at 24 as I was as a 12.
A character as an adult encompases not just different elements personality wise (obviously) but conveys different humor, different interactions, and also different situations in the story.

I'm not going to argue against you because I don't really care about the viewing habits of other people that much, but would you be interested in the 23rd Budokai arc at least? Goku, Krillin, and everyone else are adults there. The differences between OG and Z are absolutely minimal by that point no matter how you view it.

As for the main point of the thread, I don't understand the choice but I don't care much. I actually do view OG and Z as being more distinct of entities than much of Kanz does, since much of the series presents differently in tone despite belonging to the same genre (though obviously the 'optional comedy prequel' thing is nonsense that exaggerates those differences much much too far) - Dragon Ball ceases to be an 'adventure story' after Pilaf but it's still almost unfailingly light, breezy, and fun in tone prior to the arrival of Tao Pai Pai in episode 60, so those who want the tension that's regularly present in Z won't get it for quite some time - but the original anime is great for what it is, it doesn't have to be a mirror image of Z. It's actually an incredibly interesting process, watching the very gradual development of the series starting from around episode 20 (where fighting becomes a central focus rather than an occasional element of an adventure story), to briefly becoming more serious in the 60s, to becoming very similar to Z in the 80s during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc, to basically being full-on Z in every possible way in the 100s with the introduction of Piccolo Daimao.

The fact that it's such a slow and gradual and organic maturation process (Pure lighthearted adventure in Pilaf -> A second very lighthearted story arc in the 21st Budokai, but one with a greater emphasis on fighting -> A second "adventure arc" in Red Ribbon, but one that's meant to be more genuinely exciting -> The 22nd Budokai, a much more earnest story than anything that's come before, with a moderate amount of intensity -> The very intense and dramatic Daimao arc where nothing is held back anymore), with every step of the process enjoyable in and of itself, is part of what makes the original series good. The Piccolo Daimao arc's as effective as it is because the story put a lot of effort into gradually maturing and escalating things before asking the audience to become invested in its first starkly serious story.