OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[ChronoTwigger]

After reading the debate, the excuse "time is valuable" is out of any meaning. Some wrote so much that they could have watched an entire DB arc in the meanwhile!

Why someone should watch OG after DBZ? For the simple reason if you're a fan of something, you want to know everything about and to be precise: know, not always like. Most of Gundam fan, once dragged in by the latest serie, go back in time to recover the lost lore. Even if, to be honest, OG Gundam is... how I can formulate it politely... '70 sh*t?

I probably watched 12 times Hokuto no Ken, and I still cannot tell who is the brother of who. And I don't feel the urge of knowing it.
But I can tell you practically everything about Saint Seiya.
Why so?
Personal tastes. I dunno why that horrible art of Kurumada had such a charme on me, but I've gone back in time and even read Kurumada first horrible stories to know from what 'humus' Saint Seiya came from.

There's a kinda sense of ownership that push you to indepth and eviscerate everything about. Even the parts you don't like (and believe me, there are parts in Saint Seiya that have to be burned down). But is... an intellectual pleasure, I suppose.
One can like Dragon Ball a lot and still don't feel that "Intellectual" need of total ownership.

[MetaMoss]

Sure, make the distinction. There's some truth to it, but it's not altogether true.

Then why rag on dva_raza so much for it? Once again, where are they making the argument about "fundamental" differences?

After reading the debate, the excuse "time is valuable" is out of any meaning. Some wrote so much that they could have watched an entire DB arc in the meanwhile!

Like I said before, not all time is equal. A time investment into a TV show you have reason to believe [valid or not] that you won't enjoy is not that appealing to anyone. Not that I imagine dva_raza finds defending their position on this issue their kind of appealing, but they did mention that they saw value in participating in this community, so at some level they must have found that time valuable. But after having their opinion talked past and exaggerated, I wouldn't blame them for thinking the time spent here isn't worth it.

Hell, if this is how the folks of this forum decide to treat newer members, I really got to reconsider if my time spent here is worth it.

[ABED]

Then why rag on dva_raza so much for it? Once again, where are they making the argument about "fundamental" differences?

You know that arguments you made the last post? They made those as well. That is saying the shows are fundamentally different. I didn't rag on him but saying they are different series because in a very literal sense they are doesn't tell the whole story. Why even bring that up if the reason you don't want to go back further is it doesn't have the characters or action you prefer? The point they are making isn't a technical one. They aren't pointing out that DB is a series that lasted 153 episodes and Z is one that lasted 291. They are saying they are separate.

Hell, if this is how the folks of this forum decide to treat newer members, I really got to reconsider if my time spent here is worth it.

Disagreement isn't treating people poorly. This is the second time you've done this. In one of the other threads, you kept saying "why can't you be charitable" and I still have no idea what you meant other than, "why can't you just agree". You never bothered to explain and just continually took issue with me saying that not everyone agrees about some topic. I didn't talk past him or you.

Abed in particular seems to have an issue with just processing that. From what he has said, he apparently knows if he is interested in a movie or show only after he watched the whole thing, not before. Which is something I never heard of tbh, but to each his own.

If I'm talking past anyone, I'm sorry but it's not one way. For instance, there's this. I never implied that to know if I'm interested in a movie, I have to see the whole thing. I did however say that in order to speak on something or understand it you have to have seen it and more than random clips. I'm more than fine with anyone not wanting to stick with DB past the first arc or even a few episodes. My issue has always been the claim that it's indicative of DB as a whole. I'm sure there are shows out there that if I had stuck with them past a few episodes they might turn around. However, time is valuable and I'm not willing any longer to stick with it on the off chance that it might become enjoyable.

I think we need to do a better job of trying to understand each other especially in disagreement. Like if we think someone says X, that person says "no, I said Y" the next step should be to try to get clear on what the other means.

[JulieYBM]

After reading the debate, the excuse "time is valuable" is out of any meaning. Some wrote so much that they could have watched an entire DB arc in the meanwhile!

Why someone should watch OG after DBZ? For the simple reason if you're a fan of something, you want to know everything about and to be precise: know, not always like. Most of Gundam fan, once dragged in by the latest serie, go back in time to recover the lost lore. Even if, to be honest, OG Gundam is... how I can formulate it politely... '70 sh*t?

I probably watched 12 times Hokuto no Ken, and I still cannot tell who is the brother of who. And I don't feel the urge of knowing it.
But I can tell you practically everything about Saint Seiya.
Why so?
Personal tastes. I dunno why that horrible art of Kurumada had such a charme on me, but I've gone back in time and even read Kurumada first horrible stories to know from what 'humus' Saint Seiya came from.

There's a kinda sense of ownership that push you to indepth and eviscerate everything about. Even the parts you don't like (and believe me, there are parts in Saint Seiya that have to be burned down). But is... an intellectual pleasure, I suppose.
One can like Dragon Ball a lot and still don't feel that "Intellectual" need of total ownership.

it's just a cartoon

not everyone has time to spe

[ABED]

Not everyone does have time to spare but considering people on here love where it ends up, I would think that buys people more leeway and reason to push through. I didn't start Seinfeld from the very beginning. Like most people of a certain age, we started watching after Seinfeld had not only hit its stride but became a pop cultural phenomenon. Had I started with the first few episodes these days, I don't think I would've gotten very far unless I knew where it ended up.

The reason people stop watching shows after an episode or two especially nowdays is because it's either not something they enjoy or even assuming someone tells them it is something they will enjoy at a certain point, they aren't willing to wait around on the off chance it could get better. So they cut their losses. In the instance of DB, we know that at some point it does turn into something that appeals to them.

[JulieYBM]

Some people go on to watch the 1986 cartoon or read the 1984 cartoon but that doesn't mean that just because they've come to the internet to discuss that which they have seen does not mean that they are obligated to watch that which is not a priority or even interest for them.

[ABED]

I didn't claim it was an issue of priority or obligation, but this isn't a case of just coming to discuss it on the internet. They joined a fan community page, and one whose emphasis is on the original. That implies a more than passing interest in the franchise. Unless Gohan is the biggest selling point for them, why not go back earlier? Even if it's not the very start, why not go back several arcs where it's very close to what does appeal to them?.

The Saiyan arc is a great point to start a new show from a marketing perspective and bringing in new fans. The previous story threads were tied up, but many of the things associated with DB (big bads, battles quicker than the human eye, Earth shattering power) are there earlier than Raditz arriving on Earth.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, for the people who refuse to watch the 1986 series what is your interest in the franchise? Is it Gohan and Vegeta? Are you really neck deep into the Saiyan lore and don’t want to deal with a series that never references Saiyans? Because that’s about the only reasonable answer as to why you would dismiss the first three years of the series.

[Adamant]

If Toei had rebranded the Boo arc "Dragonball X" I'm wondering how many people would be running around saying DBZ is just an unnecessary prequel you can easily skip to get to "the good parts" with Super Saiyans and protagonist Vegeta.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

If Toei had rebranded the Boo arc "Dragonball X" I'm wondering how many people would be running around saying DBZ is just an unnecessary prequel you can easily skip to get to "the good parts" with Super Saiyans and protagonist Vegeta.

I would say if that was the case people would see the Boo arc as the "unnecessary sequel" that undoes a perfect ending with Goku dying and passing the baton on to Gohan and a what-if story at best we can take or leave (which I disagree with because I like the Boo arc's unpredictability).

I could be wrong, as I've seen a lot of Boo arc naysayers have come around to liking it in recent years, but even if it was rebranded I imagine the flashy action in the earlier arcs would be enough to entice anyone that "just liked the Boo arc".

[ABED]

I could be wrong, as I've seen a lot of Boo arc naysayers have come around to liking it in recent years, but even if it was rebranded I imagine the flashy action in the earlier arcs would be enough to entice anyone that "just liked the Boo arc".

I'm one of them. Even 5 years ago I probably would've said I preferred the Cell arc, but have come around to really enjoying the Buu arc.

[Raki]

Yeah, for the people who refuse to watch the 1986 series what is your interest in the franchise? Is it Gohan and Vegeta? Are you really neck deep into the Saiyan lore and don’t want to deal with a series that never references Saiyans? Because that’s about the only reasonable answer as to why you would dismiss the first three years of the series.

This divide does not exist in other anime fandoms. I really wish they would have aired the 21st World Tournament in the mid 1990s. That would have caught on in syndication. Instead we have people claiming the first half of the story doesn't matter.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, for the people who refuse to watch the 1986 series what is your interest in the franchise? Is it Gohan and Vegeta? Are you really neck deep into the Saiyan lore and don’t want to deal with a series that never references Saiyans? Because that’s about the only reasonable answer as to why you would dismiss the first three years of the series.

This divide does not exist in other anime fandoms. I really wish they would have aired the 21st World Tournament in the mid 1990s. That would have caught on in syndication. Instead we have people claiming the first half of the story doesn't matter.

True. Given Funimation had the narrator basically “introducing” Goku to new comers in episode 30 of Dragon Ball to fill the lack of audio with Dragon Ball Densetsu missing I have to wonder why they didn’t just skip to episode 30 in the first place if they were concern about a lack of action in the original Dragon Ball

[Adamant]

If Toei had rebranded the Boo arc "Dragonball X" I'm wondering how many people would be running around saying DBZ is just an unnecessary prequel you can easily skip to get to "the good parts" with Super Saiyans and protagonist Vegeta.

I would say if that was the case people would see the Boo arc as the "unnecessary sequel" that undoes a perfect ending with Goku dying and passing the baton on to Gohan and a what-if story at best we can take or leave (which I disagree with because I like the Boo arc's unpredictability).

But this hypothetical "DBX fandom" would have been introduced to the franchise through DBX and wouldn't have known about this "ending" for many years. If anything, it having such a "perfect ending" would just make it even more of a "standalone show" that would be logical to skip because there wouldn't be any awkward plot points from DBZ lingering around in DBX.

[90sDBZ]

I don't think many people just prefer Z for Gohan and Vegeta. I think the quality of the fights is a big part of it too.

Earlyish on Goku vs Jackie Chun and Goku vs Tao are great fights, but still don't quite have the high speed intensity of Z. For me the 22nd Tournament is when DB reached that level, specifically with Tien's fights with Yamcha, Jackie Chun, and Goku. All 3 of those fights are outstanding, and are right up there with many of Z's best.

Fights like Krillin vs Bacterian, Goku vs Nam, and Goku vs Giran are all fun to watch, but they don't compare to Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz in terms of sheer excitement and intensity.

Another thing is the stakes. The first time the entire planet is at stake in DB is King Piccolo, which is pretty far along. In Z Raditz introduces the high stakes immediately. Z kicks off with that awesome fight, the main character dying, and the forboding promise of 2 even stronger Saiyans on the way. That right there is a great way to hook someone immediately.

Then when Nappa and Vegeta do show up the fights get even more intense, with the entire planet shaking and multiple main characters dying. Only the King Piccolo and Piccolo jr arcs get close to this.

[ABED]

But that's a wide spectrum of quality. DBZ has some of the greatest fights and some of the worst and most boring battles. Same goes for DB. Some great ones, arguably the best is Piccolo Jr. vs. Goku, and some not so good ones.

Thing about stakes are, even quote unquote "low(er) stakes" can feel even more important because there's an emotional and personal weight to them. The stakes can't get higher than the multiverse and yet, I don't see many arguing that they really care that much about those level of stakes.

I don't think it's a great way to hook someone to have characters we don't really know die. Piccolo's death works well because even without having previous context, we spend a significant time getting to know him and see his bond with Gohan develop.

Then when Nappa and Vegeta do show up the fights get even more intense, with the entire planet shaking and multiple main characters dying. Only the King Piccolo and Piccolo jr arcs get close to this.

The last third of the show, a not insignificant portion of the story.

[90sDBZ]

I'd argue DBZ has an overall better ratio for exciting fights vs just okay fights than DB. Most of DB's great fights happen at the Tournaments, particularly the last 2. The Pilaf arc doesn't have any great fights, the RRA arc has Tao but is largely just Goku steamrolling guys with guns in one of the longest arcs. Fights like Goku vs Murasaki are good for their humor, but aren't edge of your seat exciting, which is what a lot of Z fans look for. Goku's fights with Tambourine and King Piccolo are awesome though.

With Z every major arc has at least a few great fights.

The Saiyan arc doesn't have a single boring fight (outside of filler).

The Frieza arc has Vegeta vs Zarbon, Vegeta vs Recoome, Piccolo vs Frieza, Vegeta vs Frieza, and Goku vs Frieza.

The Cell arc has Vegeta vs 18, Piccolo vs 17, and Goku vs Cell.

The Buu arc has Goku vs Majin Vegeta, Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu, Gotenks vs Super Buu, and Goku vs Kid Buu.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is someone who goes back to watch DB will see fights just as exciting as Z, just not as often until they're pretty far in.

[MyVisionity]

Yeah, for the people who refuse to watch the 1986 series what is your interest in the franchise? Is it Gohan and Vegeta? Are you really neck deep into the Saiyan lore and don’t want to deal with a series that never references Saiyans? Because that’s about the only reasonable answer as to why you would dismiss the first three years of the series.

And that's an extremely reasonable answer. If someone is all about Saiyans and cosmic shit and insane power-ups and action, then maybe 86 just isn't for them.

[ABED]

I'd argue DBZ has an overall better ratio for exciting fights vs just okay fights than DB. Most of DB's great fights happen at the Tournaments, particularly the last 2. The Pilaf arc doesn't have any great fights, the RRA arc has Tao but is largely just Goku steamrolling guys with guns in one of the longest arcs. Fights like Goku vs Murasaki are good for their humor, but aren't edge of your seat exciting, which is what a lot of Z fans look for. Goku's fights with Tambourine and King Piccolo are awesome though.

With Z every major arc has at least a few great fights.

The Saiyan arc doesn't have a single boring fight (outside of filler).

The Frieza arc has Vegeta vs Zarbon, Vegeta vs Recoome, Piccolo vs Frieza, Vegeta vs Frieza, and Goku vs Frieza.

The Cell arc has Vegeta vs 18, Piccolo vs 17, and Goku vs Cell.

The Buu arc has Goku vs Majin Vegeta, Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu, Gotenks vs Super Buu, and Goku vs Kid Buu.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is someone who goes back to watch DB will see fights just as exciting as Z, just not as often until they're pretty far in.

Even assuming that's true, there are 3 TB's and the one with Baba. That's a lot of great battles.

I have a hard time believing the big thing that draws people to DBZ are it's most superficial aspects - cool badass fights. What about the emotional moments, character development, cast chemistry.

Gotenks vs. Super Buu is not a stand out fight. It's too long and quite boring most of the time. It's also not that badass. It's mostly a yuck fest. But people like humor, including the humor in DB. I've seen the movies with crowds and the humor in DB is still present in DBZ and Super. The funny moments had the crowds howling and was just as responsible as anything for the fun time audiences have with DB as the action. Action's an easier sell but plenty of shows do that sort of thing, but don't have the quirk or charm that DB has.

And that's an extremely reasonable answer. If someone is all about Saiyans and cosmic shit and insane power-ups and action, then maybe 86 just isn't for them.

Transformations are very superficial most of the time, but I understand why they appeal to people. But the insane action and power ups are there in DB. The cosmic stuff is largely window dressing.

Toriyama hits his stride by the Tenshinhan arc and his work starts to plateau around the Ginyu Force and drops off rather sharply around the Freeza battle which was entirely too long. The peaks in DB are so high and it's such a damn shame that so many, even on here, actively refuse to go back to it because of something as superficial as power levels. The stretch of episodes between Goku vs. Kuririn at the 23rd TB to Goku killing Piccolo Daimao and getting revenge for the death of his best friend and sensei are DB at it's most emotionally satisfying. The Saiyan arc comes very close, perhaps matching it, but I don't think it exceeds it.

I honestly believe that while the cool over the top battles are an appeal and a huge drawing point for DBZ, I don't think that's entirely why it's endured. it's just the most obvious reason. It's a tangible detail. But a significant reason anything works or doesn't work is due to intangible details - the things that are harder to put your finger on.

[MyVisionity]

...the Freeza battle which was entirely too long.

I never thought that this battle was too long. It feels deserved for a character like Freeza and the story they were trying to tell. Some of the filler parts are too much I admit, but the overall length seems appropriate to me.