OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[ABED]

The fight is just shy of 30 episodes long in DBZ and 20 in Kai. That's an entire season of TV for a single fight. Even if he's said to be the baddest of the bad and most powerful, it doesn't require that many episodes to make that point. If you feel differently, fine, but I don't think any battle requires that length especially since there are a lot of repetitive beats.

[MyVisionity]

I don't think that it necessarily *requires* that many episodes, just that it's fitting for the battle to be that long. I think that it feels that much more epic and dramatic because of the length, and has a heavier impact on the viewers that way. They're supposed to feel beat up and exhausted by the end of it all.

Plus it's really more like three fights in one, with Freeza versus the Z-Soldiers, Freeza versus Goku, and Freeza versus Super Saiyan Goku. The Cell and Boo battles are about the same length as Freeza, it's just that in those arcs the fights are spread apart throughout the saga and not all in one batch of episodes at the end.

[ABED]

And yet the other fights where they're beat to shreds and exhausted take a fraction of the time. Even fans of the franchise say that it drags.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The Freeza fight is insanely long, particularly the Goku vs Freeza segment, which is ironic considering in universe a lot of it is meant to take place within the 5 minutes Goku took to beat him and find a ship to get off the planet.

I can rewatch either the Z or the Kai version any day. It's very cathartic, especially given the stakes being as high as they were on Namek and after everything Goku and his friends went through to revive everyone that died during the Saiyan conflict the final battle and its conclusion felt earned regardless of length.

It's even more rewarding when you've watched OG Dragon Ball because you have context for characters like Tenshinhan, Chaoitzu, Yamcha, even Kuririn and have seen their growth and development from when they first met Goku.

[90sDBZ]

Even assuming that's true, there are 3 TB's and the one with Baba. That's a lot of great battles.

I have a hard time believing the big thing that draws people to DBZ are it's most superficial aspects - cool badass fights. What about the emotional moments, character development, cast chemistry.

Gotenks vs. Super Buu is not a stand out fight. It's too long and quite boring most of the time. It's also not that badass. It's mostly a yuck fest. But people like humor, including the humor in DB. I've seen the movies with crowds and the humor in DB is still present in DBZ and Super. The funny moments had the crowds howling and was just as responsible as anything for the fun time audiences have with DB as the action. Action's an easier sell but plenty of shows do that sort of thing, but don't have the quirk or charm that DB has.

Toriyama hits his stride by the Tenshinhan arc and his work starts to plateau around the Ginyu Force and drops off rather sharply around the Freeza battle which was entirely too long. The peaks in DB are so high and it's such a damn shame that so many, even on here, actively refuse to go back to it because of something as superficial as power levels. The stretch of episodes between Goku vs. Kuririn at the 23rd TB to Goku killing Piccolo Daimao and getting revenge for the death of his best friend and sensei are DB at it's most emotionally satisfying. The Saiyan arc comes very close, perhaps matching it, but I don't think it exceeds it.

I honestly believe that while the cool over the top battles are an appeal and a huge drawing point for DBZ, I don't think that's entirely why it's endured. it's just the most obvious reason. It's a tangible detail. But a significant reason anything works or doesn't work is due to intangible details - the things that are harder to put your finger on.

I think different people like it for different reasons. It's obvious that some people are more drawn to the superficial stuff than others. You don't have to look far to see people obsessing over powerlevels, who could beat who, or being huge fans of Broly because he looks badass and powerful.

It's an extreme example, but the fact that Dragon Ball Heroes exists and continues to do well pretty much confirms there are fans who couldn't care less about story and characterization. They just want to see cool shiny stuff.

Thankfully not all fans are like this, and there are many who do care for those other things. Most fans fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. They love the characters and story, but they also want some exciting over the top shit to go down.

DB does have great fights, but many of them lack the OTT spectacle of Z. That doesn't necessarily mean they're less good, just that they might not be as appealing for certain people.

I think Gotenks vs Super Buu is great because it's the best of both worlds. It has the humor of early DB along with the OTT stuff from Z. I don't see how someone who likes the humor from DB wouldn't like that fight. It has a bunch of goofy comedic techniques like the 21st Tournament, and gradually builds to an all out Z style battle, with Gotenks going SS3 and both of them wreaking havok on one another and the surrounding environment.

[MyVisionity]

I don't really like the various Super Boo fights because the humor feels completely out of place in them. Serious threats mixed with goofball humor doesn't work here. The 86 series was never like that.

And yet the other fights where they're beat to shreds and exhausted take a fraction of the time. Even fans of the franchise say that it drags.

I meant that the audience is supposed to feel as beaten and exhausted as the characters. You can feel that in the Freeza arc. The Cell and Boo fights take just as long, except its the entire sagas where the impact is felt at the end, not a singular battle like with Freeza. The only way that would have been different is if the fight with Freeza had been spread apart over the course of the entire Namek episodes.

Dragon Ball Ireland pretty much sums up why I think that the length was earned, given the stakes and whatnot. Although I disagree that the fight was "insanely long". It's longer than the previous singular battles, for sure, but not a whole lot more. I imagine that watching it on a weekly basis might have been tougher than what future viewers were able to do, however.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I should probably clarify I don't think it was the length of Goku and Freeza's fight that was earned, it was the payoff, hence my point about the conclusion of the fight and the arc being worth it. It's a great fight because it rewards you for your investment in the characters and the wait you endured to see them resurrected. The Kai and manga versions are both shorter than Z but if you followed the story up until that point all three versions are effective, so the story as a whole works in spite of the final battles length, not because of it.

[capsulecorp]

All of these points are dancing around the truth at the heart of much of the DBZ anime adaptation - the pacing is incredibly poor, with endless repetition of poorly written filler content. I watched DBZ before I read it and I was completely shocked by how much better the story flows in the manga. Namek and Buu in particular are just so joyful to read, even the parts that felt grueling and bloated in the anime.

Despite this, the stories still feel "epic" and grand... the difference is the way they flow, with energy waxing and waning in a thoughtful, appropriate way, as opposed to the anime's constant stop-start of action, environment shots, sideline character recaps, and so on. Anyway, you guys are hitting on something really important and surprising, at least to me, so it's worth highlighting!

[ABED]

I don't really like the various Super Boo fights because the humor feels completely out of place in them. Serious threats mixed with goofball humor doesn't work here. The 86 series was never like that.

And yet the other fights where they're beat to shreds and exhausted take a fraction of the time. Even fans of the franchise say that it drags.

I meant that the audience is supposed to feel as beaten and exhausted as the characters. You can feel that in the Freeza arc. The Cell and Boo fights take just as long, except its the entire sagas where the impact is felt at the end, not a singular battle like with Freeza. The only way that would have been different is if the fight with Freeza had been spread apart over the course of the entire Namek episodes.

Dragon Ball Ireland pretty much sums up why I think that the length was earned, given the stakes and whatnot. Although I disagree that the fight was "insanely long". It's longer than the previous singular battles, for sure, but not a whole lot more. I imagine that watching it on a weekly basis might have been tougher than what future viewers were able to do, however.

Hard disagree about "serious threats". It's a kids show with end of the world stakes. That's goofy kids show and superhero stakes.

The 86 series did have that sort of thing. Piccolo was afraid of a rice cooker! Great comedy can exist even alongside very serious stories. Yes, even goofy humor.

I know what you meant regarding exhausted, but there's a huge chasm between something that puts you in the shoes of the characters and something that feels overly long and you are tired of. It's the difference between a wrestling show where you feel exhausted yet elated after an awesome few hours of great matches and promos vs. an event that goes on for 6 or 7 hours and you are completely burned out after a few and only stayed for the sake of seeing it to the end.

Yes, the Freeza fight is much longer than the previous singular battles. DB wisely went less than 10 for their climactic battles. It seems like a lot of you are implying it's all leading to Freeza so the length feels appropriate. Correct me if I'm wrong.

All of these points are dancing around the truth at the heart of much of the DBZ anime adaptation - the pacing is incredibly poor, with endless repetition of poorly written filler content. I watched DBZ before I read it and I was completely shocked by how much better the story flows in the manga. Namek and Buu in particular are just so joyful to read, even the parts that felt grueling and bloated in the anime.

Despite this, the stories still feel "epic" and grand... the difference is the way they flow, with energy waxing and waning in a thoughtful, appropriate way, as opposed to the anime's constant stop-start of action, environment shots, sideline character recaps, and so on. Anyway, you guys are hitting on something really important and surprising, at least to me, so it's worth highlighting!

Wonderfully said.

I think Gotenks vs Super Buu is great because it's the best of both worlds. It has the humor of early DB along with the OTT stuff from Z. I don't see how someone who likes the humor from DB wouldn't like that fight. It has a bunch of goofy comedic techniques like the 21st Tournament, and gradually builds to an all out Z style battle, with Gotenks going SS3 and both of them wreaking havok on one another and the surrounding environment.

It's been a while since I've seen it, and while there are moments I enjoy, it's very start-stop, and I don't feel much in the way of intensity. I'm also not a big fan of Gotenks.. I enjoy the humor in it, by and large.

[Anonymous Friend]

imagine caring how other people watch children's cartoons...

If someone is purposefully not watching OGDB but goes on about how much of a fan they are, I will think less of their fandom.


And if you get butthurt over that, then I gotta ask ... Why do you care so much about what RandomForumUser896 thinks about your watch habits? Get over it and move on with your life.

This is such a melodramatic thing to say. People are busy. So what if they just cannot or do not want to watch a dumb cartoon? Are the words 'this less of their fandom' really something you need to even think about?

I'm allowed to think about whatever I want to think about. And I'm allowed to feel whatever I want to feel about whoever. You can't take that away from me. And if I want to judge some yahoo on the interwebs because they ain't as much of a fan as me.

And it looks like someone got their bulmas in a bunch over what I wrote.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Cool Story Bro.

[MyVisionity]

Gotenks versus Boo had some funny moments, but it's hard to take any of it seriously with all of the gags. Same with the Vegetto portion. That's a problem when the threat is supposed to be greater and more serious than ever before. Yes, it's a kids show, but one that had already established itself as having serious stakes.

The rice cooker was a throwaway gag that doesn't detract from the overall seriousness of the plot. Plus DB was still in its gag stages even during Daimao. But the story could strike a stronger balance between the serious and silly at that time. The Boo arc cannot find the right balance to make any of it work, particularly during the Super Boo period.

[90sDBZ]

Gotenks versus Boo had some funny moments, but it's hard to take any of it seriously with all of the gags. Same with the Vegetto portion. That's a problem when the threat is supposed to be greater and more serious than ever before. Yes, it's a kids show, but one that had already established itself as having serious stakes.

The rice cooker was a throwaway gag that doesn't detract from the overall seriousness of the plot. Plus DB was still in its gag stages even during Daimao. But the story could strike a stronger balance between the serious and silly at that time. The Boo arc cannot find the right balance to make any of it work, particularly during the Super Boo period.

For me the fact that Gotenks still acts that way when the universe is at stake makes it even funnier. Having Piccolo of all people be responsible for him is genius. His bloodpressure was probably through the roof from having to constantly deal with Gotenks's bullshit.

The Cell arc was pretty much dead serious from start to finish, so Buu bringing back the humour was a breath of fresh air. I love how it just embraces the absurdity of the story, and is less predictable than previous arcs.

For me Buu always feels like a threat despite the comedy. It's possible for a character to be both funny and menacing.

[capsulecorp]

Gotenks versus Boo had some funny moments, but it's hard to take any of it seriously with all of the gags. Same with the Vegetto portion. That's a problem when the threat is supposed to be greater and more serious than ever before. Yes, it's a kids show, but one that had already established itself as having serious stakes.

The rice cooker was a throwaway gag that doesn't detract from the overall seriousness of the plot. Plus DB was still in its gag stages even during Daimao. But the story could strike a stronger balance between the serious and silly at that time. The Boo arc cannot find the right balance to make any of it work, particularly during the Super Boo period.

For me, the weird humor of that part of the story actually makes it feel MORE desperate, somehow. It's sort of like mixing salty and sweet... the result can be more enjoyable than just sweet. Too much grimness and drama ends up feeling sort of... immature and corny?

[ABED]

Gotenks versus Boo had some funny moments, but it's hard to take any of it seriously with all of the gags. Same with the Vegetto portion. That's a problem when the threat is supposed to be greater and more serious than ever before. Yes, it's a kids show, but one that had already established itself as having serious stakes.

The rice cooker was a throwaway gag that doesn't detract from the overall seriousness of the plot. Plus DB was still in its gag stages even during Daimao. But the story could strike a stronger balance between the serious and silly at that time. The Boo arc cannot find the right balance to make any of it work, particularly during the Super Boo period.

For me, the weird humor of that part of the story actually makes it feel MORE desperate, somehow. It's sort of like mixing salty and sweet... the result can be more enjoyable than just sweet. Too much grimness and drama ends up feeling sort of... immature and corny?

Again, very well put. Mixing lots of humor in a show like DB can make the serious moments land better than if the tone were more uniform. For a story as goofy and crazy as DB, trying to take things so super serious often makes it feel immature and like it's making apologies for what it is. It's one of the reason I've grown less fond of super serious superhero movies. Having lots of humor mixed into a concept as inherently silly as superheroes allows for the more serious and earnest moments to truly land. A great example of the humor accentuating the seriousness is the Ginyu Force. They're goofballs but at times it feels completely hopeless. The contrast works incredibly well. That isn't to say some movies and TV shows with singular grim tones don't work well, but that takes a VERY deft hand.

The rice cooker thing is NOT a throwaway gag. First, it's brought back at least one other time, and two, it's the method of Piccolo's imprisonment. The Piccolo Daimao arc was not during the gag manga portion. It had long since past that part. Arguably the only part that could truly be considered a gag manga is the very first arc.

A gripe of mine with the Gotenks fight isn't that there's lots of humor, it's like witnessing Goten's mother's death wasn't a factor.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Guys you are derailing the topic. AGAIN.

[ABED]

Guys you are derailing the topic. AGAIN.

Are we? It's a slight tangent but not completely off topic since a HUGE point of contention of those that don't want to watch OG DB is its greater emphasis on humor. The point we're getting at is there's PLENTY of the humor detractors are critical of in parts of the story they enjoy.

[capsulecorp]

A gripe of mine with the Gotenks fight isn't that there's lots of humor, it's like witnessing Goten's mother's death wasn't a factor.

For what its worth, I've always been under the impression that fusion characters don't have fused personalities... they're just different entities, though they obviously take their physical appearance from the people who perform the fusion.

[90sDBZ]

A gripe of mine with the Gotenks fight isn't that there's lots of humor, it's like witnessing Goten's mother's death wasn't a factor.

For what its worth, I've always been under the impression that fusion characters don't have fused personalities... they're just different entities, though they obviously take their physical appearance from the people who perform the fusion.

Gotenks does get angry when hears of Bulma's death, and refers to her as his mother, although he does go back to his antics not long after. I guess him knowing about the Dragon Balls played a part in him not being too grief stricken. Plus his power went to his head.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Could you guys at least mention the actual point of the thread in that Boo Saga discussion?