Has Toriyama lost his touch?

[Jord]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. (...) When did he lose his touch?

Between 2013 and 2014. Notice that everything went downhill after the release of Movie 14 and the closure of Dragon Ball Online. There should be a villain called "2013/2014" for the characters to deal with (and use the Dragon Balls to resurrect the fallen one!).

I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.

People do overestimate the involvement of the original author for some reason. Yet, we continue to get more and more examples of that being indeed not the case. See the latest Terminator movie.

"Authenticity" means little in the grand scheme of things, so I don't know the point of always screaming "hey the original author is here!". If it's doomed to fail, it will fail regardless (in terms of quality, obviously).

I wish you didn't mention Dragon Ball Online. Such a shame what happened to it. It gave us a lot of interesting lore. Has DBO ever been adapted into something like a manga or anything? Would be an interesting read. Heck, could be an interesting show.

[JulieYBM]

Everything is a collaborative effort. Toriyama wasn't the only person working on the 1984 comic, after all. Heck, the person who Toriyama is today is literally a different person in general because time changes us all.

I'm nit sure how we even begin to quantify "his touch" because ultimately there was always someone there filtering out ideas, whether it was hi direct editor (whom he had three of at various points), JUMP editorial or even the cartoon staff.

The scope is just too big to consider.

[FortuneSSJ]

When it comes to his art yeah he did. At least for DB. I'm not interested in seeing anything drawn from him.

[VegettoEX]

When it comes to his art yeah he did. At least for DB. I'm not interested in seeing anything drawn from him.

But what are you actually seeing drawn from him?

Character designs? Corrections?

That's... really all there is. He's not drawing the manga. He's not an animator. What little drawing he's doing is not a product.

So I once again go back to my original point, and ask: what touch? His role is completely different from before, so the conversation has to shift respectively/appropriately, and that's not really happening with the original poster's question or subsequently in this thread.

[FortuneSSJ]

When it comes to his art yeah he did. At least for DB. I'm not interested in seeing anything drawn from him.

But what are you actually seeing drawn from him?

Character designs? Corrections?

That's... really all there is. He's not drawing the manga. He's not an animator. What little drawing he's doing is not a product.

So I once again go back to my original point, and ask: what touch? His role is completely different from before, so the conversation has to shift respectively/appropriately, and that's not really happening with the original poster's question or subsequently in this thread.

I meant characters draw entirely by him the since the revival happened. Even if it's just sketchs. The character outfits are fine, it's how skinny and/or ugly almost everyone looks that I don't like.

Examples:

Spoiler:

I know that OP was talking more about the writing though. Just wanted to give my opinion about how Toriyama lost his touch when it comes to draw DB.

[Jord]

When it comes to his art yeah he did. At least for DB. I'm not interested in seeing anything drawn from him.

But what are you actually seeing drawn from him?

Character designs? Corrections?

That's... really all there is. He's not drawing the manga. He's not an animator. What little drawing he's doing is not a product.

So I once again go back to my original point, and ask: what touch? His role is completely different from before, so the conversation has to shift respectively/appropriately, and that's not really happening with the original poster's question or subsequently in this thread.

I meant characters draw entirely by him the since the revival happened. Even if it's just sketchs. The character outfits are fine, it's how skinny and/or ugly almost everyone looks that I don't like.

Examples:

Spoiler:

I know that OP was talking more about the writing though. Just wanted to give my opinion about how Toriyama lost his touch when it comes to draw DB.

Oof. Gohan and Satan especially have those extremely thin looking arms. Reallt weird considering Satan seemed to be pretty buff in Z and even GT.

[JulieYBM]

"The characters are skinny" is such a weird hill to die on. So what? It's a stylistic decision and it's not like the characters need to be buff to be strong.

[MasenkoHA]

"The characters are skinny" is such a weird hill to die on. So what? It's a stylistic decision and it's not like the characters need to be buff to be strong.

It’s also not like Toriyama hasn’t used the “size can be deceptive when it comes to strength” trope since *checks notes* the very beginning of the series.

[JulieYBM]

"The characters are skinny" is such a weird hill to die on. So what? It's a stylistic decision and it's not like the characters need to be buff to be strong.

It’s also not like Toriyama hasn’t used the “size can be deceptive when it comes to strength” trope since *checks notes* the very beginning of the series.

Can't believe that chubby kid beat up a sabertooth tiger smh

[Skar]

Oof. Gohan and Satan especially have those extremely thin looking arms. Reallt weird considering Satan seemed to be pretty buff in Z and even GT.

Neko Majin and Kanzenban covers were released in the early 2000s and kind of a transition between his old and new styles. Characters appeared more muscular than they do now but not as much as they used to be. I guess it's just his artstyle changing naturally over time. At least the mighty Ox King is still muscular!

[Hugo Boss]

Speaking of Dragon Ball’s storytelling, I wouldn’t say he lost his “touch”, but rather that he currently doesn’t have someone with balls to revise his writing like Torishima used to do. The thing is that he has more liberty now. He doesn’t draw, he merely provides outlined plot and some character designs, and his editors try to stick with his script as faithful as they can.

That could be me dreaming (and probably is), but Toriyama needs someone to tell him “stop overusing clumsy jokes”, “if you are going to make Earthlings play active roles, at least build up something new for them”, “stop sidelining Boo in favor of Krillin or Tenshinhan”, “stop bringing back old villains for nostalgia sake”, “make us feel the young characters are growing to something more than relaxed brats”.

While we are in this subject, I hope the new Dragon Ball Super movie moves in the opposite direction. I feel most of my nitpicks are slowly being resolved.

[Soppa Saia People]

i don't really mind the skinny look, and in some ways i prefer it to his late era dragon ball style, my main issue is just the heads are sometimes kinda gigantic and they look like mascots. his super saiyan 2 goku art from around 2013 is one of my favorite toriyama drawings though.

[SupremeKai25]

I think the OP is being overdramatic and obviously better or worse is subjective but name one thing about Super that is more original than DBZ.

Piccolo playing a major role in the new movie and

Spoiler:

and even getting a new form.

Meanwhile DBZ in the Buu arc treated Piccolo like a babysitter and battle spectator.

This is simply the most recent thing that Super did better than DBZ, the treatment of Piccolo...

That has nothing to do with originality.

And Piccolo had a more prominent role in the Saiyan-Cell arcs than all of Super.

Piccolo in the Saiyan-Cell arc was never the main protagonist, here in this movie it's looking like he will be one of the two main protagonists, since he is featured alongside Gohan while taking on the evil androids.

This is original and Super has been praised a lot for this. Super treats side characters way better than DBZ did, that's why we have things like Android 17 winning the ToP or Trunks being the "hero" of the Future Trunks arc.

17 in DBZ was completely left out of the plot after he was revived in the Cell saga, Super brought him back and shaped him into a major character who saved U7 by virtue of being the last man standing and making a selfless wish. Trunks in DBZ ended up being in the sidelines in the fight against Cell, whereas in DBS he was the one who defeated Fused Zamasu when Goku and Vegeta failed.

[Jord]

i don't really mind the skinny look, and in some ways i prefer it to his late era dragon ball style, my main issue is just the heads are sometimes kinda gigantic and they look like mascots. his super saiyan 2 goku art from around 2013 is one of my favorite toriyama drawings though.

That's exactly it. The proportions look extremely weird on those drawings.

[Skar]

Piccolo in the Saiyan-Cell arc was never the main protagonist, here in this movie it's looking like he will be one of the two main protagonists, since he is featured alongside Gohan while taking on the evil androids.

I did like some of these moments you mentioned but I can understand why some fans wouldn't and only considered them standard revival fan service of bringing back popular characters whose stories ended years ago. Difference of opinion and all that. I still look forward to Super Hero but I think Gohan and Piccolo are only the leads because Goku and Vegeta are off world or busy which is a similar setup to the Garlic Jr saga and Bio Broly.

[Peach]

Nah.

When he's given complete control of the scripts (Battle of Gods, R. F., Broly), he knocks it out of the park. With the Super anime and manga, he's putting his trust into Toei, the mangaka, the studio executives to make most of the major decisions - and they screw up many times and deliver a product on par with the worst filler or Z movies.

It certainly doesn't help that anime staff have harsh deadlines and working conditions, and that it's an on going series where they're pressured to deliver significantly more content than Toriyama suggests. Quality control isn't exactly a priority in these environments.

[Goe]

In fact, Dragon Ball Super is really different than the 90s manga, but I am not sure the reason is Toriyama losing his touch.

Toriyama loves absurd humor more than epic fights. He enjoys creating things like Dr. Slump, Cowa!, or the first DB chapters with that surreal humor (Mutenroshi doing dirty things, Oolong saving the world because he asked to Shenron girl panties, invisible man defeated thanks to that Krillin's plan all of you know...).

When Tambourine killed Krillin, everything changed. DB keeps having humor doses, but that absurd humor got gradually lost and there was a transition from an humor manga to a fight manga with some humor gags (Ginyu Tokusentai, Goku throwing Chichi against a tree by accident, etc).

I think when story reached Piccolo saga, someone (editor Torishima or Toriyama himself) noticed that turning the story in a more serious and epic story would be more lucrative. Editor Kondo had a great influence (Vegeta, 2nd form Cell and Perfect Cell existed thanks to him) in story, and even former Torishima (A-17, A-18 and Cell existed thanks to him), so Dragon Ball stopped to be Toriyama's style since Krillin was killed. I am not saying this is bad, I love all sagas of the 90s manga, but I think Toriyama's "touch" got lost since Piccolo Daimaoh saga.

[Majin Buu]

Meanwhile DBZ in the Buu arc treated Piccolo like a babysitter and battle spectator.

This is simply the most recent thing that Super did better than DBZ, the treatment of Piccolo...

I'd argue the Buu arc using Piccolo as the straight man in a comedic duo with Gotenks was an original idea, an original idea that you conveniently downplayed as him playing "babysitter".

[SupremeKai25]

Meanwhile DBZ in the Buu arc treated Piccolo like a babysitter and battle spectator.

This is simply the most recent thing that Super did better than DBZ, the treatment of Piccolo...

I'd argue the Buu arc using Piccolo as the straight man in a comedic duo with Gotenks was an original idea, an original idea that you conveniently downplayed as him playing "babysitter".

You acknowledge that he was a comic relief character but then you disagree when I said he acted like a babysitter? You're contradicting yourself. That's literally where the comedy comes from, the fact that Piccolo-Gotenks dynamic is like the dynamic between a babysitter and a rebellious kid.

You can call it "original" if you want; but if you ask me, Piccolo will get better spotlight in the upcoming movie, as opposed to the screentime he had in the Buu arc...

[Majin Buu]

You acknowledge that he was a comic relief character but then you disagree when I said he acted like a babysitter? You're contradicting yourself.

And you're strawmanning.

I was pointing out that you were downplaying the originality of that setup by referring to it as mere babysitting, not disagreeing with you that he was babysitting.