Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Kataphrut]

As far as I’m concerned, Toyotaro’s manga lost the right to call itself canon when it omitted Toriyama’s tingly backs Super Saiyan description.

THIS is the hill you're choosing to die on? That tingly back thing was one of the dumbest things in the anime. How do you become Super Saiyan? Through righteous rage? Being pushed to your limits? Experiencing great loss? Oh, no, no, no. Just concentrate your ki into a specific point on your back. That'll do it.

It came from Toriyama, the word of god. By definition, the version that uses it has more of a claim to legitimacy than the one that doesn't.

Also I'm only being *slightly* facetious here- the tingly back thing is fine, and perfectly consistent with the series' writing. Ignoring it or acting like it's an insult is implying that the material needs to be treated with "respect" and that's not what Dragon Ball is about. Dragon Ball is shameless.

[Grimlock]

I don't think that is supposed to overwrite all the requirements to achieve Super Saiyan. Pretty sure the "tingly back" is supposed to be the "biological explanation/view" of the achievement of Super Saiyan, an in-depth "look" inside a Saiyan's body and what happens to it during the process of transforming.

Think of it as the kind of information you would only get from a doctor. Those who didn't pay the doctor a visit, would not know what happens during the transformation sequence. Yes, emotion is what triggers the transformation, but inside your body, your power is focused on your back while you are transforming into Super Saiyan.

I'm not defending what Dragon Ball Super did, the execution was indeed terrible since no actual emotion was triggered when Caulifla achieved it. They tried to emulate it by having Cabba trying to piss Caulifla off, but that was quickly abandoned and, in the end, all she needed was to focus her power on her back. But there's absolutely no problem with the "tingly back" explanation itself at all, they merely added a bit more of lore.

The "tingly back" also and actually explains why most of the time the characters have their bodies bent over forward, in a hunchback position, when they transform.

Anyway, I don't know why people make this to be a big deal when it really isn't. The explanation itself is fine. And although I understand the Caulifla situation, you all accepted (?) Goten and Trunks cases by now, who most likely both also didn't have any emotion when they first transformed, so maybe you all can ignore or come to accept Caulifla too.

By the way, I went to check the scene, and Caulifla asks if Cabba is always angry when he transforms, to which he replies he isn't, he focus his power on his back. It's something I didn't pay much attention before, but this tells us that the "tingly back" is always present, whenever the characters transform, so it's something that the characters, when they first transform, probably do it unconsciously, but they all come to be aware of it later on.

[Aizamasu]

I don’t know why people are trying to discredit the manga based on the movies. The movies are made by Toei so of course they are going to reference the anime and not the manga.

[Jinto]

I don’t know why people are trying to discredit the manga based on the movies. The movies are made by Toei so of course they are going to reference the anime and not the manga.

It's not about discrediting the manga, it's about evaluating the current condition of a franchise we love. The general consensus for DB franchise is judged by the state of manga and that is what I protest against. We don't judge an actor by his stunt double.

[Marz]

Heyy, Vegeta's bio for Super Hero just mentions that he is Trunks' father...so this means that Bra is being ignored in the canon of the new movie??????? It sure looks like it!

[TheMajinRedComet]

Lol its a two sentence statement it's not gospel. Would you guys prefer if they just had a hyperlink to thier Wikipedia bios.

[PurestEvil]

Lol its a two sentence statement it's not gospel. Would you guys prefer if they just had a hyperlink to thier Wikipedia bios.

no no, their DB Wiki bios!

[UpFromTheSkies]

What do you guys think of the rumors that Cell will be in the movie?

[Mr Baggins]

I hate to get into "canon" pedantry again, but...

To be fair, the bios might not be there to be taken to heart

They're not. I would argue that if there are any inconsistencies, we should be looking for them in the movie proper instead of advertising/marketing materials intended for a broader audience.

We also can't be sure that Gohan's Super Saiyan causes any disrepancies, since Ultimate might just be "lost" again until the film's climax. It has been a couple of years since Gohan would have fought with Ultimate.

Freeza just asks who Gogeta is. Gogeta is the one that says Freeza doesn't know what fusion is so it's not as clear cut if he forgot about fusion or not.

This is handwaving. Freeza doesn't dispute Gogeta's dialogue, and no writer is going to include such a specific line in the script if they didn't intend for it to be the case. It's made excruciatingly clear that Freeza doesn't know what Metamoran Fusion is.

It's not even the only contradiction between the anime and movies. Goku explicitly doesn't know what the word "kakoku" means in the Broly film, but freely uses it in the Resurrection 'F' TV adaptation. Goku uses an aura with Blue again in the manga as soon as the Moro arc (which occurs shortly after Broly) but doesn't use Kaioken against Broly.

With that said, it's probably true that DBS: Broly was meant to subserve its own meta continuity above the anime and manga.

[PurestEvil]

What do you guys think of the rumors that Cell will be in the movie?

Not convincing. There is no substantial evidence apart from speculation about what is inside that metal container that was malfunctioning featured in the trailer (even though Cell was developed in a smaller glass container)

[Marz]

Lol its a two sentence statement it's not gospel. Would you guys prefer if they just had a hyperlink to thier Wikipedia bios.

I'm just being as cynical as some people here regarding taking character bios as evidence of whatever they want to believe.

I don't even think the movie will go out of its way to specifically mention manga events or anything like that (Broly didn't do that either), I just think it's funny how some people here always talk about how much they hate and don't care about the manga but never miss a chance to bring it up in discussions or dispute its canonicity whenever possible. I've lost count of how many times the discussion has veered down this path, lol

[Hellspawn28]

I don't want Cell in the movie because having him show up in the last act of the film feels pointless. A major villain like him needs his own saga or movie.

[KentMan]

The manga has a connection with this movie I didn’t intend for the bios to be used as a canon debate. But that being said the anime can’t fit Gokus bio because of him losing to a Jiren that did not go all out. This is confirmed after reading the manga and knowing what Jiren was using and what he wasn’t.

[Skar]

It came from Toriyama, the word of god. By definition, the version that uses it has more of a claim to legitimacy than the one that doesn't.

I think Toriyama also said that Goku Black can turn regular SSJ but only the manga showed it. I'm not sure if they're both details Toriyama included in his outlines or supplementary information that Toei decided to include in the anime. From what we've heard, both versions cover the entire outlines so I think it would be odd for Toyotaro to omit one detail that would've only needed a single line to include but showed SSJ Goku Black.

[Zelvin]

We also can't be sure that Gohan's Super Saiyan causes any disrepancies, since Ultimate might just be "lost" again until the film's climax. It has been a couple of years since Gohan would have fought with Ultimate.

This is just one of the reasons why I not only don't care for this movie, but why Super as a whole has lost all viability. It's just once again resetting characters to have them re-experience and relearn shit they've already done. Two or three times over. Gohan already lost Ult before and had to regain it with Piccolo prior to the ToP, then promised to continue his training to be ever ready in the future so he doesn't have to rely on his father to protect his family. To have it "lost" again because he slipped back into complacency after the whole Moro debaucle is to just say that Gohan is flimsy and weak willed, incapable of keeping even promises he made to himself.

If you have to keep hitting the reset button just to continue the story, with the story itself repeating the same story beats over and over again, then it has no value left. There's nothing left to tell. It just becomes; "This fight is over, now go to next fight". Rinse and repeat. It's piles of sugar with no substance. Eventually you just get sick and want something else. And what a more obvious way of telling everyone you're just doing resets by bringing back the Red Ribbon Army and shoving out more androids.

Honestly if you wanted to do a "Super Hero" movie, should've done it set in a time when Gohan was going around as the Great Saiyaman. Maybe right after settling all the stuff with Buu when Gohan and Videl's relationship was really starting off. It would've made more sense to do a story like that then about Gohan trying to be the world's hero under the guise of a Super Hero. But here when he's not even in the outfit, it just becomes a colossal waste of time.

But let's look at a few other things. What do we see happen?

• Pan gets kidnapped. Taken from Deadzone when Gohan was kidnapped.
  Piccolo gets attacked by unknown assailants. Also taken from Deadzone.
  More RRA androids. Super Android 13 movie.
  DNA/Cloning. Bio-Broly/Cell Saga.
  Obsession with World's Savior/Strongest warrior. Literally World's Strongest movie.

There's probably more, but the whole movie is basically a bunch of 'memberberries.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I still don't know why folks around here are getting the impression that Gohan "lost" Ultimate simply because he's using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

[KentMan]

I still don't know why folks around here are getting the impression that Gohan "lost" Ultimate simply because he's using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

Look how quick everyone wants to disregard the manga it’s not getting ignored.

[Mr Baggins]

I still don't know why folks around here are getting the impression that Gohan "lost" Ultimate simply because he's using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

Just so we're crystal, I wasn't so much banking on that being the case; I'm saying it's one of at least two possibilities. Either continuity, both continuities, or neither of them could be adhered to. My broader point was that the movie itself would obviously be an indicator of these things, rather than online marketing.

Piccolo's form is actually grabbing more of my curiosity here. Will it play some kind of role in the story? Was it a Toriyama thing, or something Toei came up with?

[ZeroNeonix]

It came from Toriyama, the word of god. By definition, the version that uses it has more of a claim to legitimacy than the one that doesn't.

Toriyama also said that Krillin could smell through the pores in his skin, since he doesn't have a nose. Sometimes, I think he just likes to fork with us.

Also I'm only being *slightly* facetious here- the tingly back thing is fine, and perfectly consistent with the series' writing. Ignoring it or acting like it's an insult is implying that the material needs to be treated with "respect" and that's not what Dragon Ball is about. Dragon Ball is shameless.

I don't hate the tingly back thing either. I just think it oversimplifies things too much. We don't need an explanation for Super Saiyans. Before this, Toriyama also said that Saiyans used S Cells to transform, and that good natured Saiyans had a higher concentration of them. So basically, the Dragon Ball equivalent of Midichlorians. I could think of a situation where that could be useful in storytelling. Like imagine if instead of Broly just being born better than everyone else, he was instead the result of scientific experimentation, where he was injected with a high concentration of S Cells as a baby. That would have been interesting. But if Bulma just showed and said that she took a skin sample from Vegeta and discovered the existence of S Cells, and it was just treated as a random bit of trivia that was irrelevant to the plot, that'd just leave me like, "Why did you feel the need to include this? Did the biological mechanisms by which Saiyans transform really need an explanation?"

[TheMikado]

As far as I’m concerned, Toyotaro’s manga lost the right to call itself canon when it omitted Toriyama’s tingly backs Super Saiyan description.

THIS is the hill you're choosing to die on? That tingly back thing was one of the dumbest things in the anime. How do you become Super Saiyan? Through righteous rage? Being pushed to your limits? Experiencing great loss? Oh, no, no, no. Just concentrate your ki into a specific point on your back. That'll do it.

It came from Toriyama, the word of god. By definition, the version that uses it has more of a claim to legitimacy than the one that doesn't.

Also I'm only being *slightly* facetious here- the tingly back thing is fine, and perfectly consistent with the series' writing. Ignoring it or acting like it's an insult is implying that the material needs to be treated with "respect" and that's not what Dragon Ball is about. Dragon Ball is shameless.

I hate all the Toriyama worship and I hate his current vision for the series.