Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragonball0900]

Piccolo merely standing next to Gohan while 17 attacks with 18 isnt particularly damning evidence though. And, for example, when Vegeta, piccolo, gohan, and krillin attacked final form freeza, Freeza went after Gohan first despite him being the third strongest.

Again, there isn't really a rule about people needing to be a certain strength to fight alongside other powerful opponents. It happens all the time in DB. Piccolo and Gohan being so close personally actually makes it even less evidential that he needs to fulfill a power requirement to assist him. What else would he do? He fought alongside him in the ToP too, and we all know he was exponentially weaker than him there.

This fight against Saganbo was mostly off screen (unlike the Frieza vs Gohan example), so it would only make sense that the story intention was that the weakest ones were taken out first and the strongest ones last. Gohan was also saved by Vegeta in the end against Frieza, so that example would no longer apply.

And Gohan was holding back when he fought alongside Piccolo in the ToP. He only used full power against Kefla, and then fought at full power against Saganbo too.

Again, I don't think he was SSG tier. But remember there's a huge gap above SSJ3 and below SSG that Moro Saga Piccolo could easily fall into. It's not far fetched to say he reached at least somewhere inside that huge bap. In the Android Saga, Piccolo got like 50 times stronger just with training with SSJ Goku. Training with a SSB tier Ultimate Gohan, his gains would easily be similar.

I disagree with pretty much all of this, but as a lot of your theory is feeling based, it doesn't seem we'll make much headway in reaching a conclusive agreement.

I think he's SSJ2 tier at best, but as it is, both of our opinions are pretty inconsequential, as to my chagrin, Piccolo is irrelevant no matter which of us is right.

Lets just hope we get some clear scaling from this new movie. Cant be too much to ask, can it?

I agree it doesn't change the fact that Piccolo was still irrelevant in that arc. And yeah, who knows, maybe the movie might clear some things up.

[larzooma]

The manga may be a little vaguer about Piccolo’s power level, but the anime gives us a good indication he’s well above where most people place him going into the ToP.

When training with Gohan he demonstrates the ability to easily overpower a SSJ2 Gohan, who at this point has been training enough to gain a large amount of power but lacks the focus to tap into his true potential. Gohan just came from defeating Lavander who is a Buu level character in his base is and SSJ form. He’s clearly at a high level in his SSJ2 form.

In 90, I’ll get the completely misplaced argument that Piccolo is weaker than Base Goku because Goku tanks his attack. At the end of 88, Gohan and Piccolo clearly state they’re going to develop some tag team tactics to get people out in the tournament, which means knocking them off. Piccolo charges his attack and releases pushing the weaker fighter like Tien back (presumably out in the ToP). The stronger fighter in Goku focuses on blocking the attack, distracting him from Gohan immediately attacking with a punch. The attack is clearly one of the team plays they talked about designing. Not to mention, we never in the history of DB, define a character solely on one attack, unless there’s a statement like I put all my power and it did nothing.

When Goku and Gohan spar, Gohan in his Ultimate form is too much for SSJ2 Goku, forcing him to go SSJB. If Piccolo is shown to outclass a SSJ2 Gohan and even incapacitate Ultimate Gohan with an attack, and Gohan is shown to be at a level close to SSJB Goku, then I’d say Piccolo is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku. It’s hard to tell where he falls in that spectrum, but he’s not base level.
It makes far more sense when considering his gains by the Moro arc. Instead of an astronomical jump from base to the SSJ3 to SSG spectrum, he’s really going form SSJ2-SSJ3 to SSJ3-SSJG, which is only a tier jump.

[Grimlock]

When Goku and Gohan spar, Gohan in his Ultimate form is too much for SSJ2 Goku, forcing him to go SSJB.

It isn't. It's Gohan who asks Goku to fight at his full power.

[ZombieVito]

The manga may be a little vaguer about Piccolo’s power level, but the anime gives us a good indication he’s well above where most people place him going into the ToP.

When training with Gohan he demonstrates the ability to easily overpower a SSJ2 Gohan, who at this point has been training enough to gain a large amount of power but lacks the focus to tap into his true potential. Gohan just came from defeating Lavander who is a Buu level character in his base is and SSJ form. He’s clearly at a high level in his SSJ2 form.

In 90, I’ll get the completely misplaced argument that Piccolo is weaker than Base Goku because Goku tanks his attack. At the end of 88, Gohan and Piccolo clearly state they’re going to develop some tag team tactics to get people out in the tournament, which means knocking them off. Piccolo charges his attack and releases pushing the weaker fighter like Tien back (presumably out in the ToP). The stronger fighter in Goku focuses on blocking the attack, distracting him from Gohan immediately attacking with a punch. The attack is clearly one of the team plays they talked about designing. Not to mention, we never in the history of DB, define a character solely on one attack, unless there’s a statement like I put all my power and it did nothing.

When Goku and Gohan spar, Gohan in his Ultimate form is too much for SSJ2 Goku, forcing him to go SSJB. If Piccolo is shown to outclass a SSJ2 Gohan and even incapacitate Ultimate Gohan with an attack, and Gohan is shown to be at a level close to SSJB Goku, then I’d say Piccolo is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku. It’s hard to tell where he falls in that spectrum, but he’s not base level.
It makes far more sense when considering his gains by the Moro arc. Instead of an astronomical jump from base to the SSJ3 to SSG spectrum, he’s really going form SSJ2-SSJ3 to SSJ3-SSJG, which is only a tier jump.

The thing is that Gohan in 88 is stated to be as strong as his Boo arc self... SS2 Gohan in 88 is weaker than current base Goku. It's not until 90 when Gohan reaches Blue tier by having trained in between episodes with Piccolo and his fight with Goku.

And this continues in the ToP since Piccolo and base Gohan are shown to be on par multiple times during their fight with the U6 Nameks.

[dragonball0900]

The manga may be a little vaguer about Piccolo’s power level, but the anime gives us a good indication he’s well above where most people place him going into the ToP.

When training with Gohan he demonstrates the ability to easily overpower a SSJ2 Gohan, who at this point has been training enough to gain a large amount of power but lacks the focus to tap into his true potential. Gohan just came from defeating Lavander who is a Buu level character in his base is and SSJ form. He’s clearly at a high level in his SSJ2 form.

In 90, I’ll get the completely misplaced argument that Piccolo is weaker than Base Goku because Goku tanks his attack. At the end of 88, Gohan and Piccolo clearly state they’re going to develop some tag team tactics to get people out in the tournament, which means knocking them off. Piccolo charges his attack and releases pushing the weaker fighter like Tien back (presumably out in the ToP). The stronger fighter in Goku focuses on blocking the attack, distracting him from Gohan immediately attacking with a punch. The attack is clearly one of the team plays they talked about designing. Not to mention, we never in the history of DB, define a character solely on one attack, unless there’s a statement like I put all my power and it did nothing.

When Goku and Gohan spar, Gohan in his Ultimate form is too much for SSJ2 Goku, forcing him to go SSJB. If Piccolo is shown to outclass a SSJ2 Gohan and even incapacitate Ultimate Gohan with an attack, and Gohan is shown to be at a level close to SSJB Goku, then I’d say Piccolo is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku. It’s hard to tell where he falls in that spectrum, but he’s not base level.
It makes far more sense when considering his gains by the Moro arc. Instead of an astronomical jump from base to the SSJ3 to SSG spectrum, he’s really going form SSJ2-SSJ3 to SSJ3-SSJG, which is only a tier jump.

While I do agree with some points you mention here, I do believe Piccolo was still weaker than SSJ1 tier in the ToP, since a DBS writer (Toshio) said on Twitter that Piccolo was still weaker than Frost, this same Frost fought equally against SSJ1 Vegeta in the ToP (which shows how strong Frost got for the ToP since in the U6 Arc he was easily defeated, plus Hit also said Frost got drastically stronger to the point of making him fight a bit more seriously). I think Toshio said something like Goku/Vegeta/Frieza > Gohan = Android 17 > Frost > Piccolo. The SSJ2 Gohan that was beaten by Piccolo was a weaker Gohan than the one that fought in the ToP.

I agree Piccolo is not mere Base tier, since that was made most likely so he could coordinate with Gohan (similar to how Androids 17 and 18 were seen coordinating with Base Goku against Universe 2), and this is shown in your example of Base Goku and Tien. But he was most likely still somewhere between the huge gap of Base and SSJ1 tier.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Toshio said something like Goku/Vegeta/Frieza > Gohan = Android 17 > Frost > Piccolo.

Source for reference. He doesn’t mention Goku, Vegeta and Freeza there, unless you are talking about another tweet. Although this was his personal opinion, I quite agree? It’s very difficult to rely on the anime powerscalling anyway.

[Cipher]

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan.

Just so you know you’re not crazy, I’m with you on this. Nothing we see from Piccolo is any indication other than that he’s gotten stronger than he was before, and more effective at team attacks with Gohan. Which we are shown and told.

People read way, way too far into his and Gohan getting an extra page of (no-effect) fighting against Saganbo. It’s just staging. If Toyotaro wants to be clear about battle powers, he is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The thing with Piccolo is that he wouldn't really be able to attack together with Gohan if he's that weak. He'd look like Tenshinhan in that tag team sparring in the anime, barely capable of even watching the fight. A faster character at least throws more blows (See Jeice and Burta vs Goku, that panel everybody gangs up on Freeza). Piccolo is definitely weaker than Gohan, but he's not lagging behind the way those guys were.

Also, I think Piccolo outlasting infinite energy 17 and 18 is definitively evidence he's better than them by now. Not sure if 17 was supposed to be SSJ3 or SSJB tier in the ToP though.

[Skar]

Piccolo in the Moro arc might be one of those times where something is implied but not what was intended by the author? Piccolo was weaker than a rusty SSJ Gohan in RoF which means he probably didn't improve much in the 12 or so years since the Cell Games. If we only consider the films, Super Hero might be the first time Toriyama wrote for Piccolo to have gotten any stronger in DBS and that was with a potential unlock. Maybe there's a line comparing Piccolo's new power to a character from a previous arc to give us an idea how strong he is.

[Hugo Boss]

that panel everybody gangs up on Freeza.

Isn’t Piccolo over 10 times stronger than Krillin in that panel? Freeza makes everyone look like they are the same there.

To be fair, 17 and 18 are not used to coordinate attacks with Gohan and Piccolo, so they probably felt that fighting everyone together would result in a sloppy combination, while Gohan and Piccolo duo is the most efficient (not only because they are used to fight together, but because Gohan is stronger than 17 and Piccolo is stronger than 18).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo in the Moro arc might be one of those times where something is implied but not what was intended by the author? Piccolo was weaker than a rusty SSJ Gohan in RoF which means he probably didn't improve much in the 12 or so years since the Cell Games. If we only consider the films, Super Hero might be the first time Toriyama wrote for Piccolo to have gotten any stronger in DBS and that was with a potential unlock. Maybe there's a line comparing Piccolo's new power to a character from a previous arc to give us an idea how strong he is.

I think that's been the case with him for the entirety of DBS. Piccolo fighting a minor goon like Frost might just look like a small deal when Toriyama writes it, but when you consider Frost is someone who made Goku go SSJ1 after he absorbed SSJG and trained for a while with Whis, it's way more than Piccolo should handle with his meditation in the Lookout and occasional sparrings with Gohan.

I wouldn't say that's the first time Piccolo gets stronger in Toriyama's mind in DBS (that doesn't even make sense lol), but the first time he gets significantly stronger. And significantly as in, being relevant to the plot. Sure, he's got a couple feats suggesting he'd finger click Super Vegetto, but I don't think the tournaments or the Moro Saga would've been very different without him.

Isn’t Piccolo over 10 times stronger than Krillin in that panel? Freeza makes everyone look like they are the same there.

To be fair, 17 and 18 are not used to coordinate attacks with Gohan and Piccolo, so they probably felt that fighting everyone together would result in a sloppy combination, while Gohan and Piccolo duo is the most efficient (not only because they are used to fight together, but because Gohan is stronger than 17 and Piccolo is stronger than 18).

If Piccolo is still SSJ1 level then he's even more of an ant to Gohan than Kuririn was to him on Namek. Piccolo is at least throwing more attacks than Kuririn in that big panel, but Gohan and Piccolo are doing the exact same things to Moro.

Well, 17 and 18 look fairly in sync when they jump in to fight Moro after Goku gasses out.

[Skar]

I wouldn't say that's the first time Piccolo gets stronger in Toriyama's mind in DBS (that doesn't even make sense lol), but the first time he gets significantly stronger. And significantly as in, being relevant to the plot. Sure, he's got a couple feats suggesting he'd finger click Super Vegetto, but I don't think the tournaments or the Moro Saga would've been very different without him.

Well why wouldn't it make sense? In BoG, it was mentioned when enraged SSJ (or SSJ2) Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku so I think any significant gain for Piccolo would've also been made clear. Goku didn't absorb SSJG in the manga so Piccolo should still be below a regular SSJ in the Champa arc since it takes place shortly after RoF. I forgot if he did anything in the manga ToP to imply he vastly improved. I remember he lost as easily as 18 to the bug guy. I think a potential unlock form giving a significant powerup would be unnecessary if Toriyama intended for him to reach God tier within a few months of regular training. Super Hero might imply Gohan and Piccolo are still vastly below Blue Goku and Vegeta since its taking place while those two are offworld.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, SBG and all those super strong base forms from the anime didn't make the cut in the manga.
Case in point: Future Trunks, he was barely able to defeat Dabura, and a year later he is relative to SS3 Goku. He did not become 400x stronger than SSG just by fighting Black, not even if he entered the ROSAT with him and trained together he'd grow that much stronger, while also becoming irrelevant and hardly even fighting in the arc. A jump from Buu arc SS2 to 400x stronger than BoG SSG makes no sense, but more importantly, was never even hinted at.

Nobody is finger flicking Super Vegito in the manga just because. The ludicrous anime powercreep is not present in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

The thing with Piccolo is that he wouldn't really be able to attack together with Gohan if he's that weak. He'd look like Tenshinhan in that tag team sparring in the anime, barely capable of even watching the fight. A faster character at least throws more blows (See Jeice and Burta vs Goku, that panel everybody gangs up on Freeza). Piccolo is definitely weaker than Gohan, but he's not lagging behind the way those guys were.

Also, I think Piccolo outlasting infinite energy 17 and 18 is definitively evidence he's better than them by now. Not sure if 17 was supposed to be SSJ3 or SSJB tier in the ToP though.

SSB tier. Goku confirms it.

[picc]

The thing with Piccolo is that he wouldn't really be able to attack together with Gohan if he's that weak. He'd look like Tenshinhan in that tag team sparring in the anime, barely capable of even watching the fight. A faster character at least throws more blows (See Jeice and Burta vs Goku, that panel everybody gangs up on Freeza). Piccolo is definitely weaker than Gohan, but he's not lagging behind the way those guys were.

Also, I think Piccolo outlasting infinite energy 17 and 18 is definitively evidence he's better than them by now. Not sure if 17 was supposed to be SSJ3 or SSJB tier in the ToP though.

So you say Piccolo wouldnt be able to attack together with Gohan if he was significantly weaker, and then in the same post, post an image from the time the significantly weaker Krillin attacked together with Piccolo as evidence?

But its entirely different because Piccolo threw one more kick in same panel than Krillin?

Even though Piccolo didnt throw any punches or kicks against Saganbo at all and just got ragdolled around?

I’m trying to re-state the argument back to you so you can hopefully hear how unecessarily technical this has become.

[picc]

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan.

Just so you know you’re not crazy, I’m with you on this. Nothing we see from Piccolo is any indication other than that he’s gotten stronger than he was before, and more effective at team attacks with Gohan. Which we are shown and told.

People read way, way too far into his and Gohan getting an extra page of (no-effect) fighting against Saganbo. It’s just staging. If Toyotaro wants to be clear about battle powers, he is.

Lot of reading into. If anything this is evidence that if you want to see something, there’s always a way to get there.

[Koitsukai]

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan.

Just so you know you’re not crazy, I’m with you on this. Nothing we see from Piccolo is any indication other than that he’s gotten stronger than he was before, and more effective at team attacks with Gohan. Which we are shown and told.

People read way, way too far into his and Gohan getting an extra page of (no-effect) fighting against Saganbo. It’s just staging. If Toyotaro wants to be clear about battle powers, he is.

Lot of reading into. If anything this is evidence that if you want to see something, there’s always a way to get there.

This certainly is true.
The example of Granola's wish comes to mind. People still cannot accept the U7 gods mentioned by Toronbo were Beerus and Whis, and not Vermouth, Quitela, Zeno, Kaio or Shin.

Even if there's nothing there, two pages ago a user was saying the SH bio of Goku somehow meant Moro was the weakest of the bunch, people will read what they want to read.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSB tier. Goku confirms it.

Yeah he says 17 is "about as strong as us", but it's kinda vague. He's clearly not comparing 17 to their strongest powers (UI and SSJBE), so saying he's being compared to SSJB is as arbitrary as say, SSJ3 or God.

Well why wouldn't it make sense? In BoG, it was mentioned when enraged SSJ (or SSJ2) Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku so I think any significant gain for Piccolo would've also been made clear. Goku didn't absorb SSJG in the manga so Piccolo should still be below a regular SSJ in the Champa arc since it takes place shortly after RoF. I forgot if he did anything in the manga ToP to imply he vastly improved. I remember he lost as easily as 18 to the bug guy. I think a potential unlock form giving a significant powerup would be unnecessary if Toriyama intended for him to reach God tier within a few months of regular training. Super Hero might imply Gohan and Piccolo are still vastly below Blue Goku and Vegeta since its taking place while those two are offworld.

Even without SSJG being absorbed, RoF still happened in the manga. So Base Goku is super strong, even if nowhere near SSJG level, and so is 4th Freeza. Can Piccolo fight Freeza the way he fought Frost? I don't think so.

So you say Piccolo wouldnt be able to attack together with Gohan if he was significantly weaker, and then in the same post, post an image from the time the significantly weaker Krillin attacked together with Piccolo as evidence?

But its entirely different because Piccolo threw one more kick in same panel than Krillin?

Even though Piccolo didnt throw any punches or kicks against Saganbo at all and just got ragdolled around?

I’m trying to re-state the argument back to you so you can hopefully hear how unecessarily technical this has become.

You're scrambling things. Saganbo stood there and took a lot of stuff from everyone, the moment any ragdolling started the fighters started to get put down. It's all in the way Gohan and Piccolo move around like equals. A lesser fighter would be lagging behind (Like Kuririn and Gohan in the Piccolo throwing two kicks panels) or be left in the dust altogether (e.g. Gohan not even seeing 4th form Freeza's blast and needing to be saved by Vegeta).

And there's the Seven-Three fight. Gohan is no longer casually beating 7-3 around with one hand. Now whether 7-3 is using Gohan or Piccolo's powers, they need to fight as a duo to overwhelm him. Piccolo not just giving Gohan backup, he's fighting with him shoulder to shoulder.

[picc]

Just so you know you’re not crazy, I’m with you on this. Nothing we see from Piccolo is any indication other than that he’s gotten stronger than he was before, and more effective at team attacks with Gohan. Which we are shown and told.

People read way, way too far into his and Gohan getting an extra page of (no-effect) fighting against Saganbo. It’s just staging. If Toyotaro wants to be clear about battle powers, he is.

Lot of reading into. If anything this is evidence that if you want to see something, there’s always a way to get there.

This certainly is true.
The example of Granola's wish comes to mind. People still cannot accept the U7 gods mentioned by Toronbo were Beerus and Whis, and not Vermouth, Quitela, Zeno, Kaio or Shin.

Even if there's nothing there, two pages ago a user was saying the SH bio of Goku somehow meant Moro was the weakest of the bunch, people will read what they want to read.

I saw someone say the "strongest in the universe" wish may not have applied to Goku, because he wasn't using his strongest form at the time it was made.

I'd like to give a friendly reminder that nothing in DB is actually happening. Its just the whims of an old Japanese man who had an idea one day. Occam's razor will never have a more appropriate application than throughout a manga written by a man who just wants to tell a fun story for kids to enjoy.

[picc]

You're scrambling things. Saganbo stood there and took a lot of stuff from everyone, the moment any ragdolling started the fighters started to get put down. It's all in the way Gohan and Piccolo move around like equals. A lesser fighter would be lagging behind (Like Kuririn and Gohan in the Piccolo throwing two kicks panels) or be left in the dust altogether (e.g. Gohan not even seeing 4th form Freeza's blast and needing to be saved by Vegeta).

And there's the Seven-Three fight. Gohan is no longer casually beating 7-3 around with one hand. Now whether 7-3 is using Gohan or Piccolo's powers, they need to fight as a duo to overwhelm him. Piccolo not just giving Gohan backup, he's fighting with him shoulder to shoulder.

Alright.