Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

[jjgp1112]

The motive doesn't matter. If you know you can fix a problem and choose not to, then you inaction (or inbthisbcase, sort of action) is partially responsible.

The motive actually matters in real life, a lot. It's what makes the difference between who is included in being judged for any sort of crime. And it matters in this context where the reason why Goku was put in that situation in the first place was for something exterior to him.

And no, there's no way in hell Goku would EVER think that the guy who threatened to kill Bulma if she prevented the Androids' creation and also let Cell become perfect would actually try to STOP him from transforming. Cmon now. That wasn't even worth the thought. Goku and Vegeta are wired exactly the same in that regard.

You mean just like Goku should know that Vegeta would find it offensive if Goku didn't go full force on him? Cause it kinda seemed like he didn't. He seemed oblivious about it until Vegeta actually told him

Um yeah, of course Goku would know Vegeta would find that offensive - thats why he lied about it!

Goku found out about Vegeta being offended in the same sentence he found out Vegeta even knew about it at all. And as soon as Vegeta mentioned seeing it, Goku reacted like he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar, not like he was making some discovery

Again, if your only reason for using a bucket of water to put out a fire when you had a power hose right there is some flimsy excuse when deep down you just didn't want your egotistical coworker to feel inadequate, then you're gonna bear some blame. The court of law means jack shit, here. The victims and the court of public opinion are just gonna say, "What the shit, dude? You could've saved the house and just didnt?" At best he'd be considered a woefully incompetent decision maker.

[MrGohanks]

Goku can revived those that the Androids killed such as Android 20, but that doesn't mean Goku will let them. Goku still has a conscious. Do you really think that Goku enjoys seeing innocent people die?
Vegeta killed civilians to force Goku to fight, Vegeta killed about 200 people with his 1 ki attack and then he shot again. Goku was angry at Vegeta for his decision. Goku even tried to block Vegeta blast but failed.

He could have used SSJ3 against Vegeta to defeat him, but it was mentioned why he didn't it.

Going all out against Fat Buu means using more ki, which means he has less time on earth. There is no guarantee there would be time to teach them.

Notice how you never blame Vegeta, when the whole mess was his fault. I will repeat:

Vegeta got possessed, just to get a power boost even if that helps Babidi.
Vegeta killed innocent people just to force Goku to fight him.
Vegeta battled Goku in his possessed form knowing any damage he did would sense energy to Buu.

Vegeta could have defeated Babidi and Dabura first and then fight Goku. Heck Vegeta could have taken over Gohan fight to finish Dabura.

Goku never revived anyone killed by the Androids, what are you talking about?

There is no reason ever given for why Goku didn't just use SSJ3 on Vegeta. When Vegeta himself calls Goku out for hiding SSJ3 when he comes back, Goku doesn't even try to explain himself. You are giving Goku excuses that Goku himself never uses lol.

After fighting Fat Buu with SSJ3, Goku still had about 3 hours left of time on Earth, but he choose to burn it all up by turning SSJ3 again in front of Goten and Kid Trunks. So that excuse you made doesn't work either.

And I never said Vegeta isn't to blame for anything, only that Goku is equally to blame.

First of all when would Goku have time to revive anyone, when he was in a coma thanks to his heart virus? When Android 20 killed innocent people, when would he get the Dragon Balls?
Goku did bring back the Dragon Balls when they were gone, thanks to Piccolo merging with Kami. He brought it back so everyone that dies or died can get revived.

Here is Goku exact quote and incase it is unreliable here is the chapter and page number:

Chapter 504 page 10/13
Goku - Sorry. There was a limit on that stage. I wanted to save it for an emergency.

You claim I am making excuse, well guess what I am not. You are choosing to ignore manga statement.

Goku had more time since he held back, if he went all out that would use more ki. Using more ki = less time so he would be out of time faster. Heck even Kaio wanted Goku to stop fighting, so there is time to teach Goten and Trunks.
Long battle + more energy used = less time on earth.

Goku doesn't get equal blame, since the whole mess was thanks to Vegeta. Vegeta gets majority of the blame.

Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times.

You try everything possible to make Goku look horrible in DBZ, while trying to make Vegeta look good. Saying they are both equal is just not true at all.

If Vegeta wasn't involved then Buu wouldn't have got revived.

You said yourself in an earlier post that Goku revived everyone killed by the Androids and now you are back pedaling lol

Goku brought Dende to Earth because they needed a new guardian. The team wishing back everyone killed by the Androids came After the Cell Games ended, which was after Goku died and it wasn't his Idea to make that wish so you're wrong either way.

"I wanted to save it for an emergency" is a terrible excuse bro lol, because Majin Vegeta himself was a world threatening emergency that Goku choose to indulge instead of putting down immediately.

And you keep ignoring the plain fact that Goku still had plenty of time left to teach the fusion dance after the fight with Fat Buu, so that excuse fails too.

"Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times."

Goku Is partly responsible for all of that because he choose Vegeta exactly what he wanted from the start instead of just putting him down immediately with SSJ3. It would have took far less time and enough for SSJ3 Goku to take out Majin Vegeta than it would for Fat Buu. There's no possible way you can see Goku is innocent, and Vegeta only crush his potara earring once (which Goku did too btw).

"Vegeta could have defeated Babidi and Dabura first and then fight Goku. Heck Vegeta could have taken over Gohan fight to finish Dabura."

That's dumb because killing Babidi would erase the Majin boost, and the whole point of Vegeta turning Majin in the first place was to match up with Goku as a SSJ2. Whatever Dabura does is largely irrelevant.

[dva_raza]

Um yeah, of course Goku would know Vegeta would find that offensive - thats why he lied about it!

This is contradictory. You say he didn’t use SS3 to protect Vegeta’s feelings basically, and you also say that Goku DID know that Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn’t use it.
So if he didn’t want to make Vegeta feel inadequate and he also knew what Vegeta would want, which is for him to give everything he has, why would he abstain from going SS3? The fact that he didn't use it is the first indication that he didn’t know.
And going back to the larger point of that is that I don’t see how Goku’s actions were "actively" negligent. I see that Goku had no way of knowing what was the right choice because of the possibilities I mentioned, there were many unknown scenarios. And that is actually relevant. That's what makes the difference between him being an accomplice or not

Again, if your only reason for using a bucket of water to put out a fire when you had a power hose right there is some flimsy excuse when deep down you just didn't want your egotistical coworker to feel inadequate, then you're gonna bear some blame. The court of law means jack shit, here. The victims and the court of public opinion are just gonna say, "What the shit, dude? You could've saved the house and just didnt?" At best he'd be considered a woefully incompetent decision maker.

I never argued that they wouldn't say that. I'm saying that this isn't a discussion about how well or not things were handled by others after the situation arose. People mentioning Goku's actions in this scenario would be part of that discussion, not part of the notion on who is to blame for a situation that only happened when Vegeta made that choice that he made and prevented Buu being taken care of as it was planned.

[jjgp1112]

Um yeah, of course Goku would know Vegeta would find that offensive - thats why he lied about it!

This is contradictory. You say he didn’t use SS3 to protect Vegeta’s feelings basically, and you also say that Goku DID know that Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn’t use it.
So if he didn’t want to make Vegeta feel inadequate and he also knew what Vegeta would want, which is for him to give everything he has, why would he abstain from going SS3? The fact that he didn't use it is the first indication that he didn’t know.
And going back to the larger point of that is that I don’t see how Goku’s actions were "actively" negligent. I see that Goku had no way of knowing what was the right choice because of the possibilities I mentioned, there were many unknown scenarios. And that is actually relevant. That's what makes the difference between him being an accomplice or not

I'm not following what's confusing you here.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta's pride, so he doesn't use Super Saiyan 3. He also knows Vegeta would be angry at being patronized and pitied too, so he...just pretends he's going all-out. When people lie they usually don't count on the person finding out about the lie. I didn't think that needed to be said.

[dva_raza]

Um yeah, of course Goku would know Vegeta would find that offensive - thats why he lied about it!

This is contradictory. You say he didn’t use SS3 to protect Vegeta’s feelings basically, and you also say that Goku DID know that Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn’t use it.
So if he didn’t want to make Vegeta feel inadequate and he also knew what Vegeta would want, which is for him to give everything he has, why would he abstain from going SS3? The fact that he didn't use it is the first indication that he didn’t know.
And going back to the larger point of that is that I don’t see how Goku’s actions were "actively" negligent. I see that Goku had no way of knowing what was the right choice because of the possibilities I mentioned, there were many unknown scenarios. And that is actually relevant. That's what makes the difference between him being an accomplice or not

I'm not following what's confusing you here.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta's pride, so he doesn't use Super Saiyan 3. He also knows Vegeta would be angry at being patronized and pitied too, so he...just pretends he's going all-out. When people lie they usually don't count on the person finding out about the lie. I didn't think that needed to be said.

I'm not confused about anything.

You said Goku knew Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn't use all he had.
And you also say that the reason Goku didn't use it was to not make him feel inadequate with it

[jjgp1112]

This is contradictory. You say he didn’t use SS3 to protect Vegeta’s feelings basically, and you also say that Goku DID know that Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn’t use it.
So if he didn’t want to make Vegeta feel inadequate and he also knew what Vegeta would want, which is for him to give everything he has, why would he abstain from going SS3? The fact that he didn't use it is the first indication that he didn’t know.
And going back to the larger point of that is that I don’t see how Goku’s actions were "actively" negligent. I see that Goku had no way of knowing what was the right choice because of the possibilities I mentioned, there were many unknown scenarios. And that is actually relevant. That's what makes the difference between him being an accomplice or not

I'm not following what's confusing you here.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta's pride, so he doesn't use Super Saiyan 3. He also knows Vegeta would be angry at being patronized and pitied too, so he...just pretends he's going all-out. When people lie they usually don't count on the person finding out about the lie. I didn't think that needed to be said.

I'm not confused about anything.

You said Goku knew Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn't use all he had.
And you also say that the reason Goku didn't use it was to not make him feel inadequate with it

Where. Is. The. Contradiction????

By hiding Super Saiyan 3, Goku is able to give Vegeta an even battle without Vegeta ever suspecting he's being patronized. He's trying to prevent both of those things from happening, and lying about Super Saiyan 3 accomplishes that. Stringing someone along out of pity so you don't hurt their feelings with the real story is a basic concept, and withholding information so the other party doesn't know they're being pitied and flips out is like, inherent to the whole thing.

Not only does Goku not use Super Saiyan 3, he doesn't even mention it. He tells Vegeta he's going all out. Vegeta can't be offended by Goku holding back if he doesn't even know that's what's happening. What Goku didn't count on was Vegeta actually finding out he was lying.

[MrGohanks]

Snip

If a major catastrophic disaster is happening around you & you are in the middle of it, and you have the ability to stop it from happening but choose to let it happen anyway, then you also become accountable for it too.

Goku was the one character in the Buu saga who could have ended it all anytime he wanted (until Super Buu becomes a thing). It would have took him basically zero time & effort to put down Majin Vegeta as a SSJ3 and only a little more with Fat Buu, but apparently, Goku thought validating Vegeta's feelings was more important than keeping the Earth safe lol.

There's also the blatant fact that Goku outright admits that he didn't just kill Fat Buu because he wanted the kids to have a chance in saving the world, proving that the Buu saga never needed to happen at all.

[dva_raza]

I'm not following what's confusing you here.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta's pride, so he doesn't use Super Saiyan 3. He also knows Vegeta would be angry at being patronized and pitied too, so he...just pretends he's going all-out. When people lie they usually don't count on the person finding out about the lie. I didn't think that needed to be said.

I'm not confused about anything.

You said Goku knew Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn't use all he had.
And you also say that the reason Goku didn't use it was to not make him feel inadequate with it

Where. Is. The. Contradiction????

By hiding Super Saiyan 3, Goku is able to give Vegeta an even battle without Vegeta ever suspecting he's being patronized. He's trying to prevent both of those things from happening, and lying about Super Saiyan 3 accomplishes that. Stringing someone along out of pity so you don't hurt their feelings with the real story is a basic concept, and withholding information so the other party doesn't know they're being pitied and flips out is like, inherent to the whole thing.

Not only does Goku not use Super Saiyan 3, he doesn't even mention it. He tells Vegeta he's going all out. Vegeta can't be offended by Goku holding back if he doesn't even know that's what's happening. What Goku didn't count on was Vegeta actually finding out he was lying.

Lol are you being serious? What do you mean where is the contradiction?

The contradiction is between the two points you said (both of which I don't even agree with):

But you say, that the main reason Goku didn't use something that would’ve ended every problem, was to not make Vegeta feel inadequate.

And you also say that Goku KNOWS Vegeta would WANT him to use SS3.

The contradiction is:
If he Goku knows that Vegeta would be offended by him not using SS3 and he didn't want to make him feel like that, then what in the hell would he not use it?! Considering that would stop every problem AND give Vegeta what Goku knows he wants.

[jjgp1112]

I'm not confused about anything.

You said Goku knew Vegeta would find it offensive if he didn't use all he had.
And you also say that the reason Goku didn't use it was to not make him feel inadequate with it

Where. Is. The. Contradiction????

By hiding Super Saiyan 3, Goku is able to give Vegeta an even battle without Vegeta ever suspecting he's being patronized. He's trying to prevent both of those things from happening, and lying about Super Saiyan 3 accomplishes that. Stringing someone along out of pity so you don't hurt their feelings with the real story is a basic concept, and withholding information so the other party doesn't know they're being pitied and flips out is like, inherent to the whole thing.

Not only does Goku not use Super Saiyan 3, he doesn't even mention it. He tells Vegeta he's going all out. Vegeta can't be offended by Goku holding back if he doesn't even know that's what's happening. What Goku didn't count on was Vegeta actually finding out he was lying.

Lol are you being serious? What do you mean where is the contradiction?

The contradiction is between the two points you said (both of which I don't even agree with):

But you say, that the main reason Goku didn't use something that would’ve ended every problem, was to not make Vegeta feel inadequate.

And you also say that Goku KNOWS Vegeta would WANT him to use SS3.

The contradiction is:
If he Goku knows that Vegeta would be offended by him not using SS3 and he didn't want to make him feel like that, then what in the hell would he not use it?! Considering that would stop every problem AND give Vegeta what Goku knows he wants.

You are confused, dude. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta and make him realize that he just sold his soul to accomplish nothing.

So instead of using the transformation, he lies and tells him he's going all out. That way, Vegeta thinks they're having an even battle that he can win, and never knows that Goku was just stringing him along. The most important priority here is making sure Vegeta's ego isn't completely deflated over a crushing defeat, and lying helps prevent a secondary meltdown about being pitied provided he doesn't actually catch him in the lie.

Because, you know, the entire point of lying to somebody to protect their feelings is so they don't know you're lying to protect their feelings.

Goku knew that Vegeta would be offended if he knew he was holding back, he just thought his lie was airtight enough that it wouldn't ever come up. People don't tend to lie with the intention of getting caught.

Jesus Christ.

[dva_raza]

Where. Is. The. Contradiction????

By hiding Super Saiyan 3, Goku is able to give Vegeta an even battle without Vegeta ever suspecting he's being patronized. He's trying to prevent both of those things from happening, and lying about Super Saiyan 3 accomplishes that. Stringing someone along out of pity so you don't hurt their feelings with the real story is a basic concept, and withholding information so the other party doesn't know they're being pitied and flips out is like, inherent to the whole thing.

Not only does Goku not use Super Saiyan 3, he doesn't even mention it. He tells Vegeta he's going all out. Vegeta can't be offended by Goku holding back if he doesn't even know that's what's happening. What Goku didn't count on was Vegeta actually finding out he was lying.

Lol are you being serious? What do you mean where is the contradiction?

The contradiction is between the two points you said (both of which I don't even agree with):

But you say, that the main reason Goku didn't use something that would’ve ended every problem, was to not make Vegeta feel inadequate.

And you also say that Goku KNOWS Vegeta would WANT him to use SS3.

The contradiction is:
If he Goku knows that Vegeta would be offended by him not using SS3 and he didn't want to make him feel like that, then what in the hell would he not use it?! Considering that would stop every problem AND give Vegeta what Goku knows he wants.

You are confused, dude. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta and make him realize that he just sold his soul to accomplish nothing.

So instead of using the transformation, he lies and tells him he's going all out. That way, Vegeta thinks they're having an even battle that he can win, and never knows that Goku was just stringing him along. The most important priority here is making sure Vegeta's ego isn't completely deflated over a crushing defeat, and lying helps prevent a secondary meltdown about being pitied provided he doesn't actually catch him in the lie.

Because, you know, the entire point of lying to somebody to protect their feelings is so they don't know you're lying to protect their feelings.

Goku knew that Vegeta would be offended if he knew he was holding back, he just thought his lie was airtight enough that it wouldn't ever come up. People don't tend to lie with the intention of getting caught.

Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ back at you.

I have honestly no idea what is unclear about the fact that if your own claim that Goku KNOWS that what Vegeta would truly want is for him to use SS3, then he would use that precisely to give Vegeta what Vegeta wants.

[jjgp1112]

Lol are you being serious? What do you mean where is the contradiction?

The contradiction is between the two points you said (both of which I don't even agree with):

But you say, that the main reason Goku didn't use something that would’ve ended every problem, was to not make Vegeta feel inadequate.

And you also say that Goku KNOWS Vegeta would WANT him to use SS3.

The contradiction is:
If he Goku knows that Vegeta would be offended by him not using SS3 and he didn't want to make him feel like that, then what in the hell would he not use it?! Considering that would stop every problem AND give Vegeta what Goku knows he wants.

You are confused, dude. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself.

Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta and make him realize that he just sold his soul to accomplish nothing.

So instead of using the transformation, he lies and tells him he's going all out. That way, Vegeta thinks they're having an even battle that he can win, and never knows that Goku was just stringing him along. The most important priority here is making sure Vegeta's ego isn't completely deflated over a crushing defeat, and lying helps prevent a secondary meltdown about being pitied provided he doesn't actually catch him in the lie.

Because, you know, the entire point of lying to somebody to protect their feelings is so they don't know you're lying to protect their feelings.

Goku knew that Vegeta would be offended if he knew he was holding back, he just thought his lie was airtight enough that it wouldn't ever come up. People don't tend to lie with the intention of getting caught.

Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ back at you.

I have honestly no idea what is unclear about the fact that if your own claim that Goku KNOWS that what Vegeta would truly want is for him to use SS3, then he would use that precisely to give Vegeta what Vegeta wants.

What you are asking me is literally why would somebody lie to somebody when they know the person will be offended about being lied to.

You are asking me to explain a basic human interaction here.

When somebody lies, they don't expect to be caught.

Look, this is Goku's priority: giving Vegeta an even fight so he thinks he has a chance. That's what's most important to him at that moment, not letting Vegeta see his full-power, because he feels like beating him that badly would be catastrophic to his ego - and considering what happened when Frieza and Cell kicked his ass, he has every reason to think this. Goku's worried about Vegeta having a meltdown over losing, and clearly if it means him not seeing Super Saiyan 3, then he's willing to deny him that to prevent the more serious problem. And if he lies about it, it won't be a problem anyway because if nothing goes wrong Vegeta wouldn't know what he was missing Super Saiyan 3 in the first place! Because that's why people lie!

However, and again, I cannot stress this enough: Vegeta doesn't like being pitied. But he also hates losing. His inferiority complex is the central part of his character.

And so by not using Super Saiyan 3, Goku spares Vegeta the crushing loss. And by lying about going all-out...he can avoid Vegeta feeling pitied, too! But again, the crushing defeat is priority #1. That's what Goku's trying to prevent. And he lies even though he knows that would piss Vegeta off because again...people don't lie with the expectation of getting caught.

A guy asks a girl on a date, and the girl's not interested but doesn't want to hurt his feelings so she lies and says she has to work that night and her schedule's too messy. Days later, the guy finds out she wasn't working at all and is now more pissed that she lied to him instead of just telling her real feelings.

You: "The rejection is what he really wanted!"

[MyVisionity]

Goku didn't hide SSJ3 to protect Vegeta's feelings. Goku hid SSJ3 so that he could fight Vegeta. *That* was his number one priority. It was the fight that was more important than protecting the Earth, not Vegeta's pride. It's Goku's desire for battle that makes him culpable for Majin Boo, not him hiding SSJ3.

Aside from that, this is why it's foolish to argue that Goku could even go SSJ3 during his battle with Vegeta. It makes everything sound completely nonsensical. That's because SSJ3 did not exist.

Also I hope no one here thinks that lying to other people is totally awesome, just as long as you don't get caught. Because no.

[jjgp1112]

Goku didn't hide SSJ3 to protect Vegeta's feelings. Goku hid SSJ3 so that he could fight Vegeta. *That* was his number one priority. It was the fight that was more important than protecting the Earth, not Vegeta's pride. It's Goku's desire for battle that makes him culpable for Majin Boo, not him hiding SSJ3.

Aside from that, this is why it's foolish to argue that Goku could even go SSJ3 during his battle with Vegeta. It makes everything sound completely nonsensical. That's because SSJ3 did not exist.

Also I hope no one here thinks that lying to other people is totally awesome, just as long as you don't get caught. Because no.

Duh, of course I'm not endorsing lying. Goddamn. I'm just saying that's why people lie. Nobody lies expecting to get caught - otherwise they'd just tell the damn truth.

Goku lied to Vegeta, didn't think he would get caught. Gets caught anyway, receives a perfectly justified negative reaction, then slumps his shoulders and sharts out a bullshit excuse. The end!

My entire original point is that Vegeta preventing Super Saiyan 3 wouldn't have even factored into Gokus logic for hiding it, for reasons that should be obvious. And those reasons are a moot point if Goku never brings up the form to begin with. He's more worried about giving Vegeta an even fight and knows if he even mentioned Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta would pull his usual "Go ahead and do it, I'm gonna crush this new fo-NANI?!" routine. So he lies for the sake of the fight.

And as for your argument Super Saiyan 3 does exist retroactively. Again, it doesn't matter if the author didn't have that shit in mind at the time of writing. The new information reframes the past scenes. What we thought of the scene originally means jack shit when we find out somebod was hiding something the entire time. If the twist makes everything sound nonsensical, then it's because it's the twist itself is nonsensical. And that's why we're arguing about Gokus culpability, because the new information about him hiding a transformation that could've solved the problem makes him look like a complete nimrod.

[Koitsukai]

Gaffer Tape's reframing of the fire analogy is just perfect. If in a robbery that goes sour with 4 people dead, the cop is just sitting on the sidewalk, he is definitely sharing part of the blame. And legally, too, not just ethically.


I mean, there's a reason why people sometimes curse god for letting something bad happen, why did you take my 4 year old son? why did you let war happen? sure, humans and viruses happen, but also this omniscent god just does nothing about it and we blame that on Him/Her.

IRL, god doesn't exist, there's nobody to blame but the actual culprit but in this case, SS3 Goku is fucking GOD next to Vegeta and to Majin Buu, who are the typical evildoers or warlords who are not stopped by the one that can actually do something. Geets is to blame, but Goku smoothed the road for him, and for Buu, too.


Also, this cracked me up:

My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L

I never knew I needed some fanwork of Vegeta sporting an L on his forehead after meeting SS3 Goku so bad.

[Zephyr]

Goku and Vegeta both have some culpability in Boo getting released, because they were ultimately both more interested in having a good fight with each other than stopping Boo from getting released. Vegeta let himself get possessed in order to get a leg up, and Goku held back. Vegeta started killing people just to get Goku's attention since the Boo thing had post-poned their fight, and Goku humored him.

Yeah so again, Goku has 0% culpability in Buu’s release.

Vegeta has 100% culpability in Buu’s release .

Like it’s not up for interpretation or anything, it’s facts that transpired in the story. Those facts are:

Vegeta decided to let himself be possessed. That's it.
Whatever anybody did AFTER that, how they approached in solving Vegeta’s mess, is irrelevant, obviously, because none of that would’ve happened had Vegeta not become possessed in the first place.
And I don’t really get what’s flying over people’s heads about this notion cause it's not in the least complicated.

Well, if the very act of Vegeta's possession was the thing that let Boo out, you'd have a point there. Like if literally all it took was an M on his forehead to release him. But that's not what let Boo out. The energy gathered from the damage accumulated during the fight is what let Boo out. No energy, no release. Vegeta's possession was one of the things that resulted in that fight happening, and in turn one of the things that resulted in the energy being gathered, but it didn't have to be. Goku allowing the fight to happen at all is another thing that resulted in that fight happening, and him not immediately spanking Vegeta was one of the things that resulted in the energy being gathered. No fight, no energy. Since the thing that actually let Boo out happened after the possession, then things that happened after the possession are relevant. This is extremely basic cause and effect. I agree that it's not complicated, but it's also not as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

Has anyone mentioned how Kaioshin (the main person trying to stop Boo's release) tried to veto the fight and Goku threatened to blast him in the face in response? So he could engage in a fight that he didn't end as quickly as possible? Just as Goku couldn't have known how Super Saiyan 3 would behave in the living world, he also couldn't have known that things were about to get so much worse. As far as he could have guessed at this point in time, this was the big emergency that you would bust the trump card out for: your most powerful ally turning to the other team and killing people, and needing to be stopped ASAP.

I'm not arguing that Goku has more culpability than Vegeta, or even necessarily the same amount. But to suggest that it's 100% Vegeta's fault is to just remove actual details from the actual flow of events. It doesn't matter who started it; Goku could have and should have ended it. Goku had the power to prevent Vegeta from giving energy to Boo, which means that Goku had the responsibility to stop Vegeta from giving energy to Boo. He didn't use that power, and so shirked that responsibility. Uncle Ben would be disappointed.

[super michael]

Goku never revived anyone killed by the Androids, what are you talking about?

There is no reason ever given for why Goku didn't just use SSJ3 on Vegeta. When Vegeta himself calls Goku out for hiding SSJ3 when he comes back, Goku doesn't even try to explain himself. You are giving Goku excuses that Goku himself never uses lol.

After fighting Fat Buu with SSJ3, Goku still had about 3 hours left of time on Earth, but he choose to burn it all up by turning SSJ3 again in front of Goten and Kid Trunks. So that excuse you made doesn't work either.

And I never said Vegeta isn't to blame for anything, only that Goku is equally to blame.

First of all when would Goku have time to revive anyone, when he was in a coma thanks to his heart virus? When Android 20 killed innocent people, when would he get the Dragon Balls?
Goku did bring back the Dragon Balls when they were gone, thanks to Piccolo merging with Kami. He brought it back so everyone that dies or died can get revived.

Here is Goku exact quote and incase it is unreliable here is the chapter and page number:

Chapter 504 page 10/13
Goku - Sorry. There was a limit on that stage. I wanted to save it for an emergency.

You claim I am making excuse, well guess what I am not. You are choosing to ignore manga statement.

Goku had more time since he held back, if he went all out that would use more ki. Using more ki = less time so he would be out of time faster. Heck even Kaio wanted Goku to stop fighting, so there is time to teach Goten and Trunks.
Long battle + more energy used = less time on earth.

Goku doesn't get equal blame, since the whole mess was thanks to Vegeta. Vegeta gets majority of the blame.

Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times.

You try everything possible to make Goku look horrible in DBZ, while trying to make Vegeta look good. Saying they are both equal is just not true at all.

If Vegeta wasn't involved then Buu wouldn't have got revived.

You said yourself in an earlier post that Goku revived everyone killed by the Androids and now you are back pedaling lol

Goku brought Dende to Earth because they needed a new guardian. The team wishing back everyone killed by the Androids came After the Cell Games ended, which was after Goku died and it wasn't his Idea to make that wish so you're wrong either way.

"I wanted to save it for an emergency" is a terrible excuse bro lol, because Majin Vegeta himself was a world threatening emergency that Goku choose to indulge instead of putting down immediately.

And you keep ignoring the plain fact that Goku still had plenty of time left to teach the fusion dance after the fight with Fat Buu, so that excuse fails too.

"Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times."

Goku Is partly responsible for all of that because he choose Vegeta exactly what he wanted from the start instead of just putting him down immediately with SSJ3. It would have took far less time and enough for SSJ3 Goku to take out Majin Vegeta than it would for Fat Buu. There's no possible way you can see Goku is innocent, and Vegeta only crush his potara earring once (which Goku did too btw).

"Vegeta could have defeated Babidi and Dabura first and then fight Goku. Heck Vegeta could have taken over Gohan fight to finish Dabura."

That's dumb because killing Babidi would erase the Majin boost, and the whole point of Vegeta turning Majin in the first place was to match up with Goku as a SSJ2. Whatever Dabura does is largely irrelevant.

Goku went to Kami Lookout in the Cell Saga to see if Piccolo could unfuse which wasn't possible, Goku was thinking of bringing back the Dragon Balls to revive anyone that dies or that has died. Without Goku thinking there would be no Dragon Ball, since no one thought of going to Namek to get a new Dragon Clan Namekain.

Maybe Goku didn't want to kill Vegeta, since there was a part of him that was good. Vegeta acted evil, but Goku knew Vegeta was lying to himself.

Goku didn't like Android 20 was killing, which he stopped him. Why would Goku want Vegeta to continue killing? The choice was battle Vegeta to stop killing or ignore Vegeta and he continues killing.

Goku had plenty of time to teach Goten and Trunks since he didn't go all out and didn't use all his powers against Buu. Had he gone all out there would be no time. Just incase Goku turning SSJ3 infront of Goten and Trunks in the Look Out was filler not in the manga.


Goku isn't responsible for Vegeta turning evil lets make that clear. Vegeta choosing to have Babidi power wasn't Goku decision. Vegeta killing wasn't Goku decision.

Vegeta decision put everyone in danger, while Goku decision was the best for the earth and his friends.

Vegeta gets 100% of the blame, while Goku doesn't get any blame on it.

[MrGohanks]

First of all when would Goku have time to revive anyone, when he was in a coma thanks to his heart virus? When Android 20 killed innocent people, when would he get the Dragon Balls?
Goku did bring back the Dragon Balls when they were gone, thanks to Piccolo merging with Kami. He brought it back so everyone that dies or died can get revived.

Here is Goku exact quote and incase it is unreliable here is the chapter and page number:

Chapter 504 page 10/13
Goku - Sorry. There was a limit on that stage. I wanted to save it for an emergency.

You claim I am making excuse, well guess what I am not. You are choosing to ignore manga statement.

Goku had more time since he held back, if he went all out that would use more ki. Using more ki = less time so he would be out of time faster. Heck even Kaio wanted Goku to stop fighting, so there is time to teach Goten and Trunks.
Long battle + more energy used = less time on earth.

Goku doesn't get equal blame, since the whole mess was thanks to Vegeta. Vegeta gets majority of the blame.

Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times.

You try everything possible to make Goku look horrible in DBZ, while trying to make Vegeta look good. Saying they are both equal is just not true at all.

If Vegeta wasn't involved then Buu wouldn't have got revived.

You said yourself in an earlier post that Goku revived everyone killed by the Androids and now you are back pedaling lol

Goku brought Dende to Earth because they needed a new guardian. The team wishing back everyone killed by the Androids came After the Cell Games ended, which was after Goku died and it wasn't his Idea to make that wish so you're wrong either way.

"I wanted to save it for an emergency" is a terrible excuse bro lol, because Majin Vegeta himself was a world threatening emergency that Goku choose to indulge instead of putting down immediately.

And you keep ignoring the plain fact that Goku still had plenty of time left to teach the fusion dance after the fight with Fat Buu, so that excuse fails too.

"Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times."

Goku Is partly responsible for all of that because he choose Vegeta exactly what he wanted from the start instead of just putting him down immediately with SSJ3. It would have took far less time and enough for SSJ3 Goku to take out Majin Vegeta than it would for Fat Buu. There's no possible way you can see Goku is innocent, and Vegeta only crush his potara earring once (which Goku did too btw).

"Vegeta could have defeated Babidi and Dabura first and then fight Goku. Heck Vegeta could have taken over Gohan fight to finish Dabura."

That's dumb because killing Babidi would erase the Majin boost, and the whole point of Vegeta turning Majin in the first place was to match up with Goku as a SSJ2. Whatever Dabura does is largely irrelevant.

Goku went to Kami Lookout in the Cell Saga to see if Piccolo could unfuse which wasn't possible, Goku was thinking of bringing back the Dragon Balls to revive anyone that dies or that has died. Without Goku thinking there would be no Dragon Ball, since no one thought of going to Namek to get a new Dragon Clan Namekain.

Maybe Goku didn't want to kill Vegeta, since there was a part of him that was good. Vegeta acted evil, but Goku knew Vegeta was lying to himself.

Goku didn't like Android 20 was killing, which he stopped him. Why would Goku want Vegeta to continue killing? The choice was battle Vegeta to stop killing or ignore Vegeta and he continues killing.

Goku had plenty of time to teach Goten and Trunks since he didn't go all out and didn't use all his powers against Buu. Had he gone all out there would be no time. Just incase Goku turning SSJ3 infront of Goten and Trunks in the Look Out was filler not in the manga.


Goku isn't responsible for Vegeta turning evil lets make that clear. Vegeta choosing to have Babidi power wasn't Goku decision. Vegeta killing wasn't Goku decision.

Vegeta decision put everyone in danger, while Goku decision was the best for the earth and his friends.

Vegeta gets 100% of the blame, while Goku doesn't get any blame on it.

Do you even understand basic cause and effect bro lol? You keep on repeating the same debunked arguments over and over while denying the obvious facts of the situation.

There would be no need to teach the kids fusion in the first place if Goku just beat up Vegeta as a SSJ3 or killed Fat Buu as a SSJ3. Goku could then just tell the other how the fusion dance works from the afterlife. Simple

[jjgp1112]

Gaffer Tape's reframing of the fire analogy is just perfect. If in a robbery that goes sour with 4 people dead, the cop is just sitting on the sidewalk, he is definitely sharing part of the blame. And legally, too, not just ethically.


I mean, there's a reason why people sometimes curse god for letting something bad happen, why did you take my 4 year old son? why did you let war happen? sure, humans and viruses happen, but also this omniscent god just does nothing about it and we blame that on Him/Her.

IRL, god doesn't exist, there's nobody to blame but the actual culprit but in this case, SS3 Goku is fucking GOD next to Vegeta and to Majin Buu, who are the typical evildoers or warlords who are not stopped by the one that can actually do something. Geets is to blame, but Goku smoothed the road for him, and for Buu, too.


Also, this cracked me up:

My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L

I never knew I needed some fanwork of Vegeta sporting an L on his forehead after meeting SS3 Goku so bad.

Exactly. In fact I think the root cause of this nonsensical argument over the last half-page is because dva_raza refuses to admit Goku did anything wrong here. The contradiction he keeps fixating on is, in actuality, the flaw in Goku's logic - Goku wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to give Vegeta the fight he wanted even though he had no chance, but also didn't want Vegeta to get angry knowing he was holding back. It was wrong of him to lie and when vegeta finds out, he has the exact reaction that would lead Goku to feel he had to lie in the first place. And not only was it wrong, it allowed Buu to be revived.

If Goku had just been honest and given Vegeta his full-power instead of patronizing him, the whole conflict would've been over. As far as he knows, they're trying to prevent Buu from being revived, and squashing Vegeta instead of contributing damage energy would have done that. There was no potential opening for some shit that Supreme Kai didn't know about - they had everything they needed to know laid out with no gaps in logic. Goku's "I was saving it for a rainy day!" explanation is a flimsy copium excuse that Vegeta instantly calls bullshit on.

[super michael]

You said yourself in an earlier post that Goku revived everyone killed by the Androids and now you are back pedaling lol

Goku brought Dende to Earth because they needed a new guardian. The team wishing back everyone killed by the Androids came After the Cell Games ended, which was after Goku died and it wasn't his Idea to make that wish so you're wrong either way.

"I wanted to save it for an emergency" is a terrible excuse bro lol, because Majin Vegeta himself was a world threatening emergency that Goku choose to indulge instead of putting down immediately.

And you keep ignoring the plain fact that Goku still had plenty of time left to teach the fusion dance after the fight with Fat Buu, so that excuse fails too.

"Like I said Goku wasn't responsible in Vegeta turning evil, Goku isn't responsible in being forced to fight him to stop killing. Goku isn't responsible in getting sucker punched by Vegeta and he isn't responsible in Vegeta crashing the Potara two times."

Goku Is partly responsible for all of that because he choose Vegeta exactly what he wanted from the start instead of just putting him down immediately with SSJ3. It would have took far less time and enough for SSJ3 Goku to take out Majin Vegeta than it would for Fat Buu. There's no possible way you can see Goku is innocent, and Vegeta only crush his potara earring once (which Goku did too btw).

"Vegeta could have defeated Babidi and Dabura first and then fight Goku. Heck Vegeta could have taken over Gohan fight to finish Dabura."

That's dumb because killing Babidi would erase the Majin boost, and the whole point of Vegeta turning Majin in the first place was to match up with Goku as a SSJ2. Whatever Dabura does is largely irrelevant.

Goku went to Kami Lookout in the Cell Saga to see if Piccolo could unfuse which wasn't possible, Goku was thinking of bringing back the Dragon Balls to revive anyone that dies or that has died. Without Goku thinking there would be no Dragon Ball, since no one thought of going to Namek to get a new Dragon Clan Namekain.

Maybe Goku didn't want to kill Vegeta, since there was a part of him that was good. Vegeta acted evil, but Goku knew Vegeta was lying to himself.

Goku didn't like Android 20 was killing, which he stopped him. Why would Goku want Vegeta to continue killing? The choice was battle Vegeta to stop killing or ignore Vegeta and he continues killing.

Goku had plenty of time to teach Goten and Trunks since he didn't go all out and didn't use all his powers against Buu. Had he gone all out there would be no time. Just incase Goku turning SSJ3 infront of Goten and Trunks in the Look Out was filler not in the manga.


Goku isn't responsible for Vegeta turning evil lets make that clear. Vegeta choosing to have Babidi power wasn't Goku decision. Vegeta killing wasn't Goku decision.

Vegeta decision put everyone in danger, while Goku decision was the best for the earth and his friends.

Vegeta gets 100% of the blame, while Goku doesn't get any blame on it.

Do you even understand basic cause and effect bro lol? You keep on repeating the same debunked arguments over and over while denying the obvious facts of the situation.

There would be no need to teach the kids fusion in the first place if Goku just beat up Vegeta as a SSJ3 or killed Fat Buu as a SSJ3. Goku could then just tell the other how the fusion dance works from the afterlife. Simple

You ignore what was mentioned in the manga, that isn't my problem at all.

Goku said why he didn't use SSJ3 against Vegeta.
Goku said why he didn't go all out against Buu and why he didn't try to kill Buu.

We don't know if teaching by telepathy would be effective. No one ever tried to teach any techniques by telepathy.

[MyVisionity]

And as for your argument Super Saiyan 3 does exist retroactively. Again, it doesn't matter if the author didn't have that shit in mind at the time of writing. The new information reframes the past scenes. What we thought of the scene originally means jack shit when we find out somebod was hiding something the entire time. If the twist makes everything sound nonsensical, then it's because it's the twist itself is nonsensical. And that's why we're arguing about Gokus culpability, because the new information about him hiding a transformation that could've solved the problem makes him look like a complete nimrod.

But the twist is nonsensical only because it was a retroactive addition. That's why it's a mistake to try and make sense out of past events based on it. You can't argue something like Goku's culpability based on a thing that hadn't even happened yet. Some things just can't be reframed retroactively. Holding someone responsible for something is one of those things.