Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think there's a big case to be made with regards to the fact that "performance =/= power". At least, a lot of the time.

People around here are often all too quick to jump on a power increase to explain a level of performance against an opponent, at least when no such thing has been suggested nor is necessary to explain how it could occur.

[ZombieVito]

I think there's a big case to be made with regards to the fact that "performance =/= power". At least, a lot of the time.

People around here are often all too quick to jump on a power increase to explain a level of performance against an opponent, at least when no such thing has been suggested nor is necessary to explain how it could occur.

Agreed.

Just look how people responded to base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla. The show went out of his way to explain that Goku was winning that fight because of his skill but people were adamant that Goku surpassed SS2 Caulifla in base. Which is completely ridiculous.

[Skar]

To be fair, that's not a stretch that needs to be made. Piccolo is very obviously below base Goku and Vegeta in the anime at that point and consistently pointed as such during the U6/7 Tournament and a bit afterwards when Goku gets his Ki Onset Syndrome and notes even Piccolo could beat him at that point, to the point that his performance in the anime against Frost reflects the large difference by way of him being on the defensive the entire time and never engaging in direct combat.

I've seen some fans argue that Piccolo, base Cabba, base Future Trunks, etc are all +Buu level based on copy Vegeta vs Gotenks. I meant that Vegeta being that strong might've been an inconsistency since it only happened in the anime. I don't think the manga implied their regular base and SSJ increased that much after BoG since he didn't absorb SSJG. If he didn't surpass Freeza in base after unlocking three SSJ forms, it's possible it didn't increase much after unlocking additional forms.

[picc]

Ultra Ego still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Haikashin ability though. Yes Vegeta had GoD chi and gets stronger as he takes damage, but that's never been something the GoD's have displayed any interest whatsoever in doing.

In the battle royale, Beerus was dodging everyone. The other GoD's were dodging each other. In every fight Beerus has ever had, he's taken every measure to avoid even a fraction of damage. There's literally no precedent for GoD's to intentionally take damage or to get stronger from taking damage. Hell, in UE Vegeta's fight with Granolah, Granolah was the only one to use destruction! So just what the hell exactly is UE?? Just a powerup thats only narratively related to the GoD's?

I believe Beerus' line about his power being unlimited due to always thinking about destruction, because that's simply the meta of the manga according to the writers.

Damage was just Vegeta's way of getting stronger because it served to stir up his battle spirit (which is what really increases his power while he's in this state, it's an instinct driven power as he says). But that's not necessarily the primary way the GoDs make use of this technique, as Beerus mentions that his "unlimited power" was due to his mind being always focused on destruction. So they probably have other ways to stir up their instincts. Obviously UE wasn't a thing in the GoD battle royal so we are just trying to fit explanations in this regard, but we can actually see the battle quickly escalating to the point where Goku couldn't even follow any of them, so you can kind of make a point about them getting progressively stronger during the fight.

Vegeta did use Hakai against Granolah but it was implied that his ability with the technique was lacking (since it was said he was trying to make up for the lack of destructive power with quantity). But he ended up using a massive destruction sphere at the end once he attains UE

Don't really have a problem with any of this. Could well and all be true. But I'd still like a more detailed explanation of UE from the manga at some point, and its frustrating we've gone through so many chapters of superfluous fighting with side characters after its debut. Feels like an afterthought at the moment when its easily the coolest development of the story so far IMO.

[Koitsukai]

From my understanding, it's not actually taking damage what makes him stronger but the thrill of it. I guess that's also why he ended up apologizing and whatnot to Beerus, because he just wasn't able to squeeze everything out of the technique without putting his ass on the line.

Maybe out of hubris and novice(spamming the same button over and over again until it breaks), maybe out of an incapacity of getting the right hold on the technique. The GoDs clearly don't wield Destruction as recklessly. I suppose he has his own ladder to climb if he's pursuing this way to the top.

Also, yeah, I would like to get some commentary on UE, hopefully, when they get back to their masters, we'll get something.

[ZombieVito]

To be fair, that's not a stretch that needs to be made. Piccolo is very obviously below base Goku and Vegeta in the anime at that point and consistently pointed as such during the U6/7 Tournament and a bit afterwards when Goku gets his Ki Onset Syndrome and notes even Piccolo could beat him at that point, to the point that his performance in the anime against Frost reflects the large difference by way of him being on the defensive the entire time and never engaging in direct combat.

I've seen some fans argue that Piccolo, base Cabba, base Future Trunks, etc are all +Buu level based on copy Vegeta vs Gotenks. I meant that Vegeta being that strong might've been an inconsistency since it only happened in the anime. I don't think the manga implied their regular base and SSJ increased that much after BoG since he didn't absorb SSJG. If he didn't surpass Freeza in base after unlocking three SSJ forms, it's possible it didn't increase much after unlocking additional forms.

Cabba and Future Trunks are that strong in base. Future Trunks even fights Kid Trunks and the latter couldn't do anything to the former even with Super Saiyan.

Piccolo only reaches that level after training with Ultimate Gohan between episodes 88 and 90. Before he was only Boo arc SS2 tier.

Also the manga does show that their bases are strong when base Goku doesn't get render unconscious when that Elephant GoD screamed while Shin and all the other Kaioshins did.

[Skar]

Cabba and Future Trunks are that strong in base. Future Trunks even fights Kid Trunks and the latter couldn't do anything to the former even with Super Saiyan.

Piccolo only reaches that level after training with Ultimate Gohan between episodes 88 and 90. Before he was only Boo arc SS2 tier.

Also the manga does show that their bases are strong when base Goku doesn't get render unconscious when that Elephant GoD screamed while Shin and all the other Kaioshins did.

Implied to be stronger than the Kaioshin doesn't mean they're Buu level in base. That's still giving anime only scenes to explain the manga. It's seven years for Future Trunks between killing Future Cell and the arrival of Goku Black. His fight against Dabura was somewhere in the middle of that and still around Cell Games level since he was almost killed in SSJ1. Base Goku is weaker than Freeza 11 years after the Cell saga but base Trunks surpasses Buu in maybe 2-3 years after needing SSJ2 to defeat Dabura? I find it easier to believe that Goku and Vegeta are made out to be stronger by some fans than intended than needing to inflate almost everyone else's power.

[ZombieVito]

Cabba and Future Trunks are that strong in base. Future Trunks even fights Kid Trunks and the latter couldn't do anything to the former even with Super Saiyan.

Piccolo only reaches that level after training with Ultimate Gohan between episodes 88 and 90. Before he was only Boo arc SS2 tier.

Also the manga does show that their bases are strong when base Goku doesn't get render unconscious when that Elephant GoD screamed while Shin and all the other Kaioshins did.

Implied to be stronger than the Kaioshin doesn't mean they're Buu level in base. That's still giving anime only scenes to explain the manga. It's seven years for Future Trunks between killing Future Cell and the arrival of Goku Black. His fight against Dabura was somewhere in the middle of that and still around Cell Games level since he was almost killed in SSJ1. Base Goku is weaker than Freeza 11 years after the Cell saga but base Trunks surpasses Buu in maybe 2-3 years after needing SSJ2 to defeat Dabura? I find it easier to believe that Goku and Vegeta are made out to be stronger by some fans than intended than needing to inflate almost everyone else's power.

There's nothing wrong with Future Trunks growth. He fought Goku Black for a year and grew stronger, that's it.

[Skar]

There's nothing wrong with Future Trunks growth. He fought Goku Black for a year and grew stronger, that's it.

I don't understand how getting beat up occasionally by Goku Black made him stronger than all his combined powerups and training throughout the series. He spent most of his life training and running from the cyborgs but still weaker than post-Yardrat Goku. In the manga, it only says that SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than Cell Games Gohan and his upgraded SSJ2 is close to SSJ3 Goku. There's no point to compare him to Gohan from back then if we're meant to already know his base is far above everyone in the Cell Games.

[ZombieVito]

There's nothing wrong with Future Trunks growth. He fought Goku Black for a year and grew stronger, that's it.

I don't understand how getting beat up occasionally by Goku Black made him stronger than all his combined powerups and training throughout the series. He spent most of his life training and running from the cyborgs but still weaker than post-Yardrat Goku. In the manga, it only says that SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than Cell Games Gohan and his upgraded SSJ2 is close to SSJ3 Goku. There's no point to compare him to Gohan from back then if we're meant to already know his base is far above everyone in the Cell Games.

Because the series never cared for consistency when it comes to power gains. Future Trunks wen from being weaker than base Future Gohan as a Super Saiyan to being stronger in base in only 3 years.

Besides, this is something Toriyama said in an interview after Battle of Gods that fits this perfectly:

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

So using the word of God, Future Trunks repeatedly fought Black and simply grew stronger each time. It's really that simple and there's no need to overcomplicate it.

[Skar]

So using the word of God, Future Trunks repeatedly fought Black and simply grew stronger each time. It's really that simple and there's no need to overcomplicate it.

You're saying I'm overcomplicating it but using anime-only scenes to explain the manga. Goku using Cell Games Gohan as a reference for SSJ2 Trunks was also used in the Buu saga for SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. Back then that implied they were only surpassed SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ2. From a writing perspective, what would be the point of including this line if we're supposed to know he's far stronger than Cell Games Gohan in base?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Don't really have a problem with any of this. Could well and all be true. But I'd still like a more detailed explanation of UE from the manga at some point, and its frustrating we've gone through so many chapters of superfluous fighting with side characters after its debut. Feels like an afterthought at the moment when its easily the coolest development of the story so far IMO.

Yeah I agree, I would also love to see all these things being properly explained. Since Vegeta said he was just a novice wielding this power, I'm expecting more information about UE to be revealed later as he masters it

[dragonball0900]

So using the word of God, Future Trunks repeatedly fought Black and simply grew stronger each time. It's really that simple and there's no need to overcomplicate it.

You're saying I'm overcomplicating it but using anime-only scenes to explain the manga. Goku using Cell Games Gohan as a reference for SSJ2 Trunks was also used in the Buu saga for SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. Back then that implied they were only surpassed SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ2. From a writing perspective, what would be the point of including this line if we're supposed to know he's far stronger than Cell Games Gohan in base?

I agree with this. At least when it comes to the manga.

Goku only said Future Trunks surpassed SSJ2 Kid Gohan once he became SSJ2 too. That means Future Trunks in base form is not on SSJ2 Kid Gohan's level yet. Same with Base Goku from the ToP. All we know is that Base Goku in the ToP was stronger than Kaioshin level, but that's all that was implied. The Base Saiyans could be anywhere between Kaioshin level (who is somewhere around Cell Games MSSJ Goku level) and SSJ2 Kid Gohan level.

This is why I think the manga did a much better job in not boosting the base saiyans' level to insane degrees like the anime did, and I think that might have been Toriyama's intention (after the whole thing with "Saiyan Beyond God" got retconned after RoF).

[Koitsukai]

Trunks being on par with a SS3 Goku that is supposed to be 400x Buuhan, means he's gotten from SS2 level to a SS3 Buuhan in one year. Which collides with Goku saying he's stronger than SS2 Gohan used to be. Sure, it isn't contradicting anything at all, but it's like saying Golden Freeza is stronger than Android 16. Hardly what you'd say against somebody 400x stronger than Buuhan.

For all we know, as a regular SS2 he is around Buu(a realm the manga considers more than decent, actually). I still don't see his FPSS2 above Buuhan. And no way 400x stronger than that. Like maybe 5x stronger than Majin Vegeta. Probably can take Kid Buu on his own.
There's a reason why he is sidelined and the story uses him as a healer without question.

Goku "tanking" something the Kaioshin couldn't, just means he is not weaker than a Cell Games SS. Expected, after training under Whis for a couple of years.

[ZombieVito]

So using the word of God, Future Trunks repeatedly fought Black and simply grew stronger each time. It's really that simple and there's no need to overcomplicate it.

You're saying I'm overcomplicating it but using anime-only scenes to explain the manga. Goku using Cell Games Gohan as a reference for SSJ2 Trunks was also used in the Buu saga for SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. Back then that implied they were only surpassed SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ2. From a writing perspective, what would be the point of including this line if we're supposed to know he's far stronger than Cell Games Gohan in base?

Toyo screwed up. It's not the first time he does it.

Besides my Commeson comment was obviously for the anime. I didn't even talk about the manga until you brought it up.

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I remember in the manga Goku only wasn’t as affected as Kaioshins by Rumshi’s warcry because his strength was rivaling some of the gods of destruction, who were still paralyzed, even Beerus and Quitela. The angels were the only ones that seemingly didn’t feel anything. That wasn’t because his base level was stronger than Kaioshin, but because his inner strength is comparable to a god of destruction’s.

The first time their base level seemingly upgraded to a whole new level was when Vegeta used his spirit control training to fight Yuzun and when Goku trained with Merus. Even then it’s difficult to quantify, because Yuzun is merely a Zarbon’s doppelgänger who was juiced by Moro’s stealed energy.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

[Thani]

As far as I remember in the manga Goku only wasn’t as affected as Kaioshins by Rumshi’s warcry because his strength was rivaling some of the gods of destruction, who were still paralyzed, even Beerus and Quitela. The angels were the only ones that seemingly didn’t feel anything. That wasn’t because his base level was stronger than Kaioshin, but because his inner strength is comparable to a god of destruction’s.

The first time their base level seemingly upgraded to a whole new level was when Vegeta used his spirit control training to fight Yuzun and when Goku trained with Merus. Even then it’s difficult to quantify, because Yuzun is merely a Zarbon’s doppelgänger who was juiced by Moro’s stealed energy.

Thank you. I've been saying this for a while now, good to see someone agreeing haha

[ZombieVito]

As far as I remember in the manga Goku only wasn’t as affected as Kaioshins by Rumshi’s warcry because his strength was rivaling some of the gods of destruction, who were still paralyzed, even Beerus and Quitela. The angels were the only ones that seemingly didn’t feel anything. That wasn’t because his base level was stronger than Kaioshin, but because his inner strength is comparable to a god of destruction’s.

The first time their base level seemingly upgraded to a whole new level was when Vegeta used his spirit control training to fight Yuzun and when Goku trained with Merus. Even then it’s difficult to quantify, because Yuzun is merely a Zarbon’s doppelgänger who was juiced by Moro’s stealed energy.

This has never made sense to me. Goku doesn't have access to any power he wields when he transforms in base. If he didn't get knocked out with the roar then it's because his base power was strong enough to resist it.

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

It's an inconsistency. Base Goku Black was stronger than SS3 Goku. There's no way SS2 Vegeta can beat a SS Goku Black.

[picc]

Don't really have a problem with any of this. Could well and all be true. But I'd still like a more detailed explanation of UE from the manga at some point, and its frustrating we've gone through so many chapters of superfluous fighting with side characters after its debut. Feels like an afterthought at the moment when its easily the coolest development of the story so far IMO.

Yeah I agree, I would also love to see all these things being properly explained. Since Vegeta said he was just a novice wielding this power, I'm expecting more information about UE to be revealed later as he masters it

Agree. And maybe we'll get the explanations we're looking for... 2 years from now. Not even joking.