Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I would like to just point out that we are discussing a fictional work, where “common sense” may not apply, specially in a fight between absurdly strong people. I think people read way too much into that scene and forget the simple explanation that Whis gives (God level -: faint; God level: freeze; God level +: no effect).

And this is really not the first time Base Goku is not blown away by shockwaves generated by stronger (in thesis) characters, but that he surpass with his Super Saiyan forms. Who doesn’t remember when SS Goten and SS Trunks powered-up at a furious rate in front of Base Goku and Piccolo and the only affected by the shockwave was Piccolo? I don’t remember anyone claiming that Base Goku was stronger than Piccolo back then. At a later portion, Gohan used the same kind of power-up and Goku was blown away, that’s because Gohan was equal or stronger than his SS3 level at the time.

It's something so basic though. We know being far from a Ki makes it harder to sense it, I don't see why sound would be any different when it's literally how it's supposed to work.

Did Goten and Trunks even create shockwaves? I always thought Piccolo was startled, not literally blown away. There's nothing in the panels indicating a Ki storm or anything, just their flared up auras.

It's really just Piccolo getting surprised. Goku's reaction isn't even shown.

[Hugo Boss]

It's really just Piccolo getting surprised. Goku's reaction isn't even shown.

Goku’s reaction is of no surprise, which makes the scene funny, because they do all that flashy stuff and he is not impressed like Piccolo is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’m not disputing that notion, but I’m not seeing how it has any relevance to what Goku managed there. Whis says even the gods of destruction are barely standing, so he lumps Goku together with them. He doesn’t say Goku is hanging there because he is further than Rumshi than Beerus is, for example. I mean, it would make sense to use this notion as a justification, but Whis doesn’t use it. His silence also tell us this. It’s later reinforced when Goku shows SSG, that his level is close to them.

That’s the reading I extracted from the scene, if someone wants to scrutinize every little piece of reaction and technical aspect of how a shockwave is supposed to be designed feel free to disagree.

The thing is, I don't think Goku is being lumped as much as he's just being ignored altogether. Whis is just explaining what it did to the Hakaishins, and then to the Kaioshins when they fall.

I didn't even need any scrutinizing of the scene. T at's the impression I always had from the get go, specially because Goku or Shin would've been instantly pulverized by anything the Hakaishins did if they were down in the arena. They're out in the safety and still getting affected, that's how strong those guys are.

It's really just Piccolo getting surprised. Goku's reaction isn't even shown.

Sure, Goku doesn't have a panel focusing on his face like Piccolo, but in the next panel he's clearly not impressed in the slightiest with their powers. "That's all?".

[TheSaiyanGod]

I used to be adept of the idea of "Super strong base Saiyans" that started with RoF, but now I honestly think it's a far bigger pain in the ass to move every single enemy that fights base Goku / Vegeta to SSG level (and assuming that all of them could one shot the Z cast) compared to just be more conservative with their power levels.

Yes, RoF is one of the starting points of this notion and the movie is supposed to work for the manga at least (since the anime retold it). But it's clear that several things showed in the movie were not carried to Super. We thought Goku and Vegeta would just stick with base and Super Saiyan Blue after that, there's the whole "you two could defeat Beerus working together" and so on. You could argue that Godly base forms is the case for the anime (since we clearly have Base Vegeta defeating SSJ3 Gotenks), but even there it wasn't actually consistent. And if we arguing about the manga, then at least pre Moro I would say their base forms are much more closer to Z levels

[Skar]

Assuming DBS Base Goku is the same range of Boo Arc SS1 Goku, we would have a DBS SS Goku far stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan already. Despite that, it’s only when Goku and Trunks use SS2 that they are implied to be stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan. Then, DBS SS Goku in the manga is probably not stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, right? Best case scenario, DBS SS Goku is as strong as Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, so that would make DBS Base Goku only twice as strong as Cell Arc Base Gohan.

Kinda unrelated but I wonder if Toei or Toyotaro have multipliers in mind when writing? The multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 only appeared in the SEG and I don't think were brought up in any guidebook that came after.

Blue Evolution looked like ASSJ and was around Blue Kaioken x20. I don't know but a potential SSJ2 Blue would be higher than that. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong just that they could've been written by whoever compiled the SEG at the time. The current writers might just consider each form as "greater" than the last and enough for a noticeable difference without any numbers in mind.

[Koitsukai]

Assuming DBS Base Goku is the same range of Boo Arc SS1 Goku, we would have a DBS SS Goku far stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan already. Despite that, it’s only when Goku and Trunks use SS2 that they are implied to be stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan. Then, DBS SS Goku in the manga is probably not stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, right? Best case scenario, DBS SS Goku is as strong as Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, so that would make DBS Base Goku only twice as strong as Cell Arc Base Gohan.

Kinda unrelated but I wonder if Toei or Toyotaro have multipliers in mind when writing? The multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 only appeared in the SEG and I don't think were brought up in any guidebook that came after.

Blue Evolution looked like ASSJ and was around Blue Kaioken x20. I don't know but a potential SSJ2 Blue would be higher than that. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong just that they could've been written by whoever compiled the SEG at the time. The current writers might just consider each form as "greater" than the last and enough for a noticeable difference without any numbers in mind.

There's that interview of Toriyama saying he felt SS was 10x, not 50x, back in Namek, which kinda devalues the actual form. Goku would've doubled that power with KKx20's KHH and non-serious Freeza didn't even bleed from it. SS would be just KKx10 without the toll.

Toyo is already using the tenner for SSB instead of the 50x boost we assumed for the anime, and it's just a SSG turning SS. I wouldn't be surprised if, to him, the next form is just stronger than the former.
For the anime, I feel they really go all out. Jiren used just one finger to deal with SSG, and his whole body with SSB. The gap between SSG and SSB seems to be greater than the one between SSB and KKx10 and 20x.

If SS2 is 2x SS, then SSB2 would be like Blue Kaioken x2.

[Cipher]

Re: Shin and Goku: Is there anything horribly dissuasive as far as just reading that as a moment of “trained martial artists can barely stay standing, but ordinary Kaioshin/other people are down”?

That was always my inclination. I don’t necessarily think it’s a referendum on their relative strengths (with regard to base-form Goku).

[Skar]

There's that interview of Toriyama saying he felt SS was 10x, not 50x, back in Namek, which kinda devalues the actual form. Goku would've doubled that power with KKx20's KHH and non-serious Freeza didn't even bleed from it. SS would be just KKx10 without the toll.

I guess he could've forgotten he had Goku use Kaioken x10 before SSJ. I remember reading that he might've misinterpreted what they meant by 50x and assumed it was being multiplied by Goku's strongest Kaioken at the time and not base. We probably won't ever know for sure and just that he thought it was a big enough powerup that Goku couldn't surpass it in base by BoG.

I find it interesting that the only times a multiplier was given in the story or brought up one of the authors was 10x like for Oozaru, Toriyama here, or Toyotaro having Blue 10x God. That could be a sign that they don't have exact multipliers in mind for each form and only a number that's easy to remember like each one being 10x or something like that. In other shonen with transformations or powerups, they usually don't have numbers at all and each one is just greater than the last.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Does Hit's improvement ability heighten his power level, or is it just his timeskip/overall fighting ability? I always thought it was the later, but the fact he can stand up to KKx10 Goku and Jiren in hand to hand combat makes it sound like he's getting stronger as well. If it was supposed to be just timeksip the writers could have him just dodge everything Goku and Jiren threw him at it instead of taking punchs that should KO him.

[Thani]

Does Hit's improvement ability heighten his power level, or is it just his timeskip/overall fighting ability? I always thought it was the later, but the fact he can stand up to KKx10 Goku and Jiren in hand to hand combat makes it sound like he's getting stronger as well. If it was supposed to be just timeksip the writers could have him just dodge everything Goku and Jiren threw him at it instead of taking punchs that should KO him.

Well, in the anime, Hit himself said he couldn't get stronger like Goku by powering up. So that's pretty much what the writers intended, that Hit's improvements are only with the time-skip.

That does not mean that he can't train to become traditionally stronger tho.

That said, yeah, Hit shouldn't be able to tank any of Goku's hits with KKx10. And to be fair, in the final episode of their fight, Goku DID cause serious damage to Hit with ONE punch. Seems to me the animators wanted to make a cool moment when unveiling SSBKK and had him pummel Hit for a bit.

As for Jiren, well, Jiren also never one-shotted Goku when he was casual. So it can be chalked up as just Jiren using enough power to overcome Hit and put the hurt on him.

[ZombieVito]

Does Hit's improvement ability heighten his power level, or is it just his timeskip/overall fighting ability? I always thought it was the later, but the fact he can stand up to KKx10 Goku and Jiren in hand to hand combat makes it sound like he's getting stronger as well. If it was supposed to be just timeksip the writers could have him just dodge everything Goku and Jiren threw him at it instead of taking punchs that should KO him.

Just the time skip. Hit couldn't even take one punch from KKx10 Blue Goku in episode 40 while Goku took dozens from Hit without even his guard being up.

[Koitsukai]

Does Hit's improvement ability heighten his power level, or is it just his timeskip/overall fighting ability? I always thought it was the later, but the fact he can stand up to KKx10 Goku and Jiren in hand to hand combat makes it sound like he's getting stronger as well. If it was supposed to be just timeksip the writers could have him just dodge everything Goku and Jiren threw him at it instead of taking punchs that should KO him.

What was stated above by Thani, yeah. Jiren was using enough power to beat them but not KO them. And Goku did deal considerable damage to Hit, but yeah, a 10x stronger blow should've destroyed Hit, his clothes, time, space...

In the anime, his technique improves, yet his power remains the same according to himself, and by the ToP he has other, better techniques.

In the manga, after Goku breaks the Time Skip, he powers up old style, and by the ToP he is plain stronger.

I do prefer the anime's take on Hit, a not-so-remarkable power level helped by an amazing technique. In the manga, he has a cool technique that is moved aside for more brawn.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In addition to what was said up there, we gotta remember that trying to do a KO or ring-out and holding back your killing potential can really limit how hard you can hit a weaker fighter.

Hit and Goku are going as close to all-out as they can without breaking the rules, which naturally means there'll be a few limitations to the scope of their power they can output. Not to mention Goku himself likes to keep a fight going for the thrill of battle and would make it a more scrappy bout.

[TheSaiyanGod]

SSB Goku was also able to send Jiren flying with a punch and could follow him to a extent, while Hit was barely able to keep up with his movements even using Time Skip.

Hit in the Champa tournament is supposed to be a a bit weaker than SSB Goku power-wise and I think it remained that way and he only improved his special technique. We saw that SSB Goku could still keep up with him in that two episode fight later before the ToP

[ZombieVito]

SSB Goku was also able to send Jiren flying with a punch and could follow him to a extent, while Hit was barely able to keep up with his movements even using Time Skip.

Hit in the Champa tournament is supposed to be a a bit weaker than SSB Goku power-wise and I think it remained that way and he only improved his special technique. We saw that SSB Goku could still keep up with him in that two episode fight later before the ToP

Yeah, Hit has always been weaker than Blue Goku, only being able to keep up with him thanks to time hax.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In addition to what was said up there, we gotta remember that trying to do a KO or ring-out and holding back your killing potential can really limit how hard you can hit a weaker fighter.

Hit and Goku are going as close to all-out as they can without breaking the rules, which naturally means there'll be a few limitations to the scope of their power they can output. Not to mention Goku himself likes to keep a fight going for the thrill of battle and would make it a more scrappy bout.

I was thinking about that too. Goku would even divide his power in “tournament level” and “battle level” as a kid. They’re always pulling their punches to avoid serious injuries.

Goku has gotten serious and finished fights quickly before (like when he one shot a off guard Recoome), but was only on serious situations. I think the power level logic in the ToP becomes much easier once you understand that. Even if they’re fighting for their lives, it’s still a sporting match with rules at the end of the day.

[quote=TheSaiyanGod post_id=<a href="tel:1735489">1735489</a> time=<a href="tel:1647298755">1647298755</a> user_id=119498]
SSB Goku was also able to send Jiren flying with a punch and could follow him to a extent, while Hit was barely able to keep up with his movements even using Time Skip.

Hit in the Champa tournament is supposed to be a a bit weaker than SSB Goku power-wise and I think it remained that way and he only improved his special technique. We saw that SSB Goku could still keep up with him in that two episode fight later before the ToP

Yeah, Hit has always been weaker than Blue Goku, only being able to keep up with him thanks to time hax.
[/quote]

Hm I’m not sure about that. Goku says Hit has gotten stronger after they beat Dyspo and Kunshi, and Hit was already rivaling Goku there. So Hit (ToP, no assassin techniques) > Hit (Post Black Saga, assassin techniques) ~ SSJB Goku.

I’d think Jiren was using a power between the one he used on SSJB Goku and the one he used on the Genki-Dama/Sign Goku vs Hit, probably closer to the later.

[Thani]

No reason to assume Hit didn't get traditionally stronger, as you said even Goku admitted it.

But let's remember that Hit's "assassination techniques" don't increase his power level. They're just moves used to kill.

[ankokudaishogun]

also, most likely his "raw" Power Level didn't increase, but he got BETTER at fighting.

Hit probably already had his ToP PL even during u6, but he was "bad" at fighting: the anime made a point of him improving during the battle both as pure fighter and at using his time technique.

[Skar]

I think in the manga Hit could only maintain his full power for a minute or so then trained to use it longer by the ToP. It makes sense since he's so far ahead of everyone else in U6 that he rarely ever needs to use his full power. Hit might've been the only current mortal in U6 who was God tier while the second strongest was enough for a SSJ1.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Hit states that he hasn't used his FP for so long, that he might not even last one minute using it, and can only use the Time Skip once, but should be enough.

His FP seems to be on SSG level, considering he felt confident on taking Goku down with his Time Skip, stated to be useful only against equal or lower level of opponents.
The runner-up of U6 would be SS Cabba, at that time. Later displaced by the girls.