Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 82 - Official Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Best chapter in a while. Great artwork, great writing and I love the way Goku remembered his parents.

[TKA]

Man, Dragonball discourse is just the silliest shit sometimes.

Why should a low-class saiyan have any special power, when the point of making him a low-class saiyan was explicitly to make Goku an underdog?

I won't blame fans too much, since Toei and the powers that be indulge in feeding this weird id fans have, by making so many dumb what-if cash-ins where characters transform into various states.

Because transformations (and merch to sell) > actual characterization.

[Tai Lung]

None is an opinion... yours, on the other hand, is... I'm basing myself on facts simply by showing you the manga and how each scene conveys a different intention... you, on the other hand, are not

The "facts" do not support your bad logic, I'm afraid. I am not even debating on whether or not the Bardock scene is good or bad (I always keep neutral opinions before chapter releases); rather, I am countering this appeal to purity you have been trying to assert (which is a LOGICAL FALLACY) as a part of your criticism.

again you're not saying anything... What? or why? Come on, if it were that, I wouldn't be showing scans that corroborate what I say... and none have been able to deny And here the only "straw man" you do ... because apart from wanting to twist my argument to your convenience you have not said anything coherent or useful to the subject

What? We have Spidey's supporting cast becoming morons all of a sudden for the plot to even work, that point in particular makes it not that unusual for people who detest it to say it has fanfiction level of writing (Or just say it's bad in general).

I don't know what you mean by that... Otto was a genius... who knew very well how to deceive others...
the avengers suspected but couldn't figure out what the problem was

[Tai Lung]

quick thoughts...
elec is still a great villain .. and he gets better and better
and well Masakox is right... Gas is just a copy of Kale
the joke with the piss ... it wasn't funny, it was awkward...

and well .... the complete manga did not change at all about the scene of goku remembering his parents

[Yuji]

Goku is the same character that once faced with Freeza's declaration that "the Saiyans did far worse things than I" replied with "They died because of it."

I hope Goku doesn't find some appreciation for the so-called kindness of his genocidal father.

[PurestEvil]

None is an opinion... yours, on the other hand, is... I'm basing myself on facts simply by showing you the manga and how each scene conveys a different intention... you, on the other hand, are not

The "facts" do not support your bad logic, I'm afraid. I am not even debating on whether or not the Bardock scene is good or bad (I always keep neutral opinions before chapter releases); rather, I am countering this appeal to purity you have been trying to assert (which is a LOGICAL FALLACY) as a part of your criticism.

again you're not saying anything... What? or why? Come on, if it were that, I wouldn't be showing scans that corroborate what I say... and none have been able to deny And here the only "straw man" you do ... because apart from wanting to twist my argument to your convenience you have not said anything coherent or useful to the subject

Those scans do not justify your use of logical fallacies, mate. You are the one who is using bad, deceptive logic as a crutch for your criticism of this chapter and to shut down my rebuttals.
After all, your total argument is literally just "this one very specific event that happened in an official Dragon Ball manga is not actually fit for Dragon Ball because no scene in the original story specifically mimicked the situation". Do you not realize how dumb this sounds? Not everyone holds the same standards as you do, and, in fact, there are a lot of people on here who DO feel like this is something appropriate for Dragon Ball! Because hey, the prospect of trying new things is actually intriguing! It's almost like this seems to be a you problem.

Weird how you say I am not arguing anything (even though I made it EXPLICITLY CLEAR that I my position the exact opposite of yours), yet you are purporting a logical fallacy. Really, it's not like anyone actually concedes to your shoddily constructed arguments. Come back to this thread when you have learned a bit more about rhetoric, because ICBA to take you seriously.

[Lukmendes]

I agree, the circumstances aren't in favor of Bardock getting Super Saiyan in this fight (that's why I prefer him to have his own unique form that we don't know much about).

It's just that, if Toyotaro goes for Super Saiyan, there's that excuse already established by the original manga itself. We don't know what will happen in Bardock and Gas fight anyway. So anything's possible, for now.

I honestly would prefer no transformations, unless he uses Oozaru, don't think either version of Bardock is really fitting to have transformations.

I don't know what you mean by that... Otto was a genius... who knew very well how to deceive others...
the avengers suspected but couldn't figure out what the problem was

This "genius" is a terrible actor, considering he acted in ways that really don't sound like Peter and everyone around him at best thought "huh, he's acting weird".

It looks even more ridiculous when you compare with many other stories where someone else pretended to be Spidey, Kraven's Last Hunt in particular, where MJ saw "Spider-Man" saving her life, and could tell right away he wasn't Peter, and another story had Chameleon pretending to be Peter, aunt May could tell, and poisoned him for it... Both picked up how different Peter was acting and figured out it wasn't him, and then in Superior, Otto does the worst "Peter Parker" acting in existence, and yet, MJ and aunt May can't tell that something is up? Yeah...

The best thing Otto had going on for him compared with other impostors is that he had Spidey's memories for like the first 9 issues, but it's still questionable 'cause again, having the memories is one thing, but he wasn't acting like Peter, it's so bad that Ghost Peter himself was wondering how nobody could tell, and he wondered that again once he got his body back, briefly pretended to be Otto to scare off Felicia, and he wondered again how nobody could tell (both moments were by Superior's writer too) lol.

Goku is the same character that once faced with Freeza's declaration that "the Saiyans did far worse things than I" replied with "They died because of it."

I hope Goku doesn't find some appreciation for the so-called kindness of his genocidal father.

To be fair, suddenly remembering his father sent him to Earth to protect him is something that I feel at least should make Goku think about what that means, but still not think too much about saiyans.

But then again, considering that in the Broly movie, we had some of the voice actors saying "Goku finally" does something at the end of the movie, and what it turned out was "He finally says Kakarot is his name", which... Was really whatever, but point is, it's possible they're pushing Goku's saiyan heritage more, and maybe it means he'll have a too high opinion on Bardock... Or maybe I'm completely wrong, time will tell.

[Tai Lung]

Those scans do not justify your use of logical fallacies, mate. You are the one who is using bad, deceptive logic as a crutch for your criticism of this chapter and to shut down my rebuttals.

You haven't refuted anything... you just rambling

After all, your total argument is literally just "this one very specific event that happened in an official Dragon Ball manga is not actually fit for Dragon Ball because no scene in the original story specifically mimicked the situation". Do you not realize how dumb this sounds? Not everyone holds the same standards as you do, and, in fact, there are a lot of people on here who DO feel like this is something appropriate for Dragon Ball! Because hey, the prospect of trying new things is actually intriguing! It's almost like this seems to be a you problem..

No .. what is dumb.... is the stupidity of doing a manipulatively sentimental scene with a character like bardock who never knew his son to make it look like an emotional impact for him because again ... they even repeat the message from "survive" which is the phrase that goku remembers... What others think matters little to me... I haven't quoted anyone to tell them what's wrong... however, you do to me... because you want to defend the indefensible ...

Weird how you say I am not arguing anything (even though I made it EXPLICITLY CLEAR that I my position the exact opposite of yours), yet you are purporting a logical fallacy. Really, it's not like anyone actually concedes to your shoddily constructed arguments. Come back to this thread when you have learned a bit more about rhetoric, because ICBA to take you seriously.

why aren't you saying anything
I'm showing you the manga... you're not showing anything...
I am explaining the context to you... and how Toyotaro addresses each scene and the messages he wants to convey based on several chapters... you have not discussed anything...
Saying "fallacy" does not save you from it because you are committing it yourself... by mentioning the genkidana scene... when I have not criticized the drama in DB ... so if you are not going to say anything coherent, you better come back... when learn to read first

[Tai Lung]

This "genius" is a terrible actor, considering he acted in ways that really don't sound like Peter and everyone around him at best thought "huh, he's acting weird".

It looks even more ridiculous when you compare with many other stories where someone else pretended to be Spidey, Kraven's Last Hunt in particular, where MJ saw "Spider-Man" saving her life, and could tell right away he wasn't Peter, and another story had Chameleon pretending to be Peter, aunt May could tell, and poisoned him for it... Both picked up how different Peter was acting and figured out it wasn't him, and then in Superior, Otto does the worst "Peter Parker" acting in existence, and yet, MJ and aunt May can't tell that something is up? Yeah...

The best thing Otto had going on for him compared with other impostors is that he had Spidey's memories for like the first 9 issues, but it's still questionable 'cause again, having the memories is one thing, but he wasn't acting like Peter, it's so bad that Ghost Peter himself was wondering how nobody could tell, and he wondered that again once he got his body back, briefly pretended to be Otto to scare off Felicia, and he wondered again how nobody could tell (both moments were by Superior's writer too) lol.

Yes, but peter often behaves strangely ... either to hide his identity or because some villain is involved ...
in fact, many believe ... that it is a symbiote but they cannot find the real problem

The difference from the others... otto has more in common with peter... at least if you have seen how the character was originally... you will know that he was an egocentric not unlike otto...

[DiscountDabi]

3. This is potentially very fucking bad. Saying that Goku has unresolved issues because he can't remember stuff about his parentage is really fucking lame. Goku doesn't care about his saiyan heritage because he was raised on Earth. Bringing back up shit just to reference the movie and thrusting his father into a key role just because he's Goku's father is some lame determinism shit that the original manga went out of its way to shit on. Determinism tied to genetics isn't Dragonball.

3B. It fucking sucks to integrate so much Saiyan history into Goku's development when the whole crux of the conflict between him and Vegeta during the original manga was that Goku was a saiyan who didn't give 2 shits about any of Saiyan culture, and thus was unshackled, while Vegeta was the opposite.

So couple issues with this. The reason Goku didn't care about the Saiyans isn't just because of Gohan and living on earth. Its becase for all intents and purposes he had good reason to assume that all saiyans were evil and his own parents shipped him off the earth because he was weak. And he told Raditz he's no brother of his because he was a murderer. Not because he was a Saiyan. Goku learning that his parents didn't throw him away and they actually cared about him should affect him. And honestly if it doesn't it makes Goku feel very 2 dimensional.

[OLKv3]

Vote: Did Gas wet his pants?
https://strawpoll.com/polls/jVyGJqKrkZ7

There was NO urination INVOLVED.

[JulieYBM]

Nothing to be ashamed of. Pants-wetting just happens sometimes.

[Cipher]

Yeah, he is neutral, what would be neutral about stalling a ningen to help another one he likes more? he is not wired that way.

Whis and Beerus also amuse themselves by putting each other, and Goku and Vegeta, in tight spots. Plus, it doubles as training and Goku rudely interrupted his meal. It feels completely in character for Whis to troll Goku a bit—or just not go along with his plan—by pointing Gas right back toward him.

Very fun chapter, though I still wish the overall scene-by-scene pacing of the arc were more brisk, and that we’d gotten a bit more of a lull in the action here to break things up structure-wise. Could also have done with more of Goku’s reaction to the memory jog more quickly, as it feels like that’s where the meat is right now.

[OLKv3]

Yeah, he is neutral, what would be neutral about stalling a ningen to help another one he likes more? he is not wired that way.

Whis and Beerus also amuse themselves by putting each other, and Goku and Vegeta, in tight spots. Plus, it doubles as training and Goku rudely interrupted his meal. It feels completely in character for Whis to troll Goku a bit—or just not go along with his plan—by pointing Gas right back toward him.

Very fun chapter, though I still wish the overall scene-by-scene pacing of the arc were more brisk, and that we’d gotten a bit more of a lull in the action here to break things up structure-wise. Could also have done with more of Goku’s reaction to the memory jog more quickly, as it feels like that’s where the meat is right now.

It's another jarring shock to his emotions, which means he's getting a powerup back into his unique version of UI. It'll be saved for the cliffhanger next month I think

[The Accountant]

I'm going to be honest, I didn't really enjoy this chapter. I'm fine with having gags every-now-and-then. However, this stuff only comes out once a month. Can we not spend pages expositing about Gas pissing and shidding himself, please. Yeah, this exchange was all about embarrassing Gas, but surely there had to be a more effective to convey this. Then again, I'm a moron, not a mangaka.

Though the title page appearing 39 pages into the chapter did make me spit out my drink. So what do I know, maybe Toyotaro is a comedic genius.

[Lukmendes]

Yes, but peter often behaves strangely ... either to hide his identity or because some villain is involved ...
in fact, many believe ... that it is a symbiote but they cannot find the real problem

The problem is how at most they thought "maybe something is wrong", but didn't follow up on it much, doing absolutely nothing, and it gets more ridiculous the longer it goes on because Otto acts less and less like Peter over time and nobody can tell that's not Peter, and that keep going for over 30 issues, even more if you count the other comics Spider-Otto showed up in.

The difference from the others... otto has more in common with peter... at least if you have seen how the character was originally... you will know that he was an egocentric not unlike otto...

He wasn't anywhere near Otto's level of being egocentric even back in Ditko's run, he was an ass who sounded arrogant if things in life were looking good, and he annoyed people who tormented him like Flash or JJ to have petty revenge, but that was about it, they weren't that similar at any point, and even under Slott, the way he made Peter act compared to how he made Otto pretending to be Peter act, is night and day level of difference.

It gets even more ridiculous when Spider-Otto kills Massacre, we have JJ supporting him for doing so, which's ridiculously out of character, him also brutalizing a bunch of villains should at least have MJ know something is up, but she's as much of an idiot as anyone else.

The plot requires characters becoming much stupider for it to work, because Otto does an even worse job pretending to be Peter than anyone else before him, and while I can understand why it's better for other heroes to not get involved in Spidey's comic so they don't take over the plot too much (They at least had an intervertion and made tests on him, which told them nothing was wrong), it is stupid for friends and family who could spot far better impersonators, but they can't tell with Otto, stuff like that, is comparable with fanfiction level of writing.

So couple issues with this. The reason Goku didn't care about the Saiyans isn't just because of Gohan and living on earth. Its becase for all intents and purposes he had good reason to assume that all saiyans were evil and his own parents shipped him off the earth because he was weak. And he told Raditz he's no brother of his because he was a murderer. Not because he was a Saiyan. Goku learning that his parents didn't throw him away and they actually cared about him should affect him. And honestly if it doesn't it makes Goku feel very 2 dimensional.

Yeah, like I said a few times, while I don't think this should change who Goku is, at least for this scene, I think he should stop and think about that memory right now.

Could also have done with more of Goku’s reaction to the memory jog more quickly, as it feels like that’s where the meat is right now.

Man, while I did find this chapter interesting, I was so annoyed when Goku remembering Bardock and Gine was interrupted to show Bardock's fight with Gas... Would be better if those pages were used to show Goku's reaction, and then the next chapter actually shows Bardock fighting Gas, and the next chapter can be the one called "Bardock versus Gas" and show more of that fight too...

Shit like this is why I generally wait and binge read manga, I was annoyed enough at just this, would be even worse if I had to keep waiting to see Granolah fight Gas for 3 chapters lol.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't really enjoy this chapter. I'm fine with having gags every-now-and-then. However, this stuff only comes out once a month. Can we not spend pages expositing about Gas pissing and shidding himself, please. Yeah, this exchange was all about embarrassing Gas, but surely there had to be a more effective to convey this. Then again, I'm a moron, not a mangaka.

Though the title page appearing 39 pages into the chapter did make me spit out my drink. So what do I know, maybe Toyotaro is a comedic genius.

I felt like the pissing joke overstayed its welcome a bit, it was just two pages long, but it felt even longer somehow, and considering Goku was already embarrassing Gas... I dunno, other stuff like having trash being dumped into him was more effective.

[LightBing]

The chapter was fun to read, the IT sequence was great.

However, the forceful insertion of Bardock continues to be a huge negative and seems to be getting worse.

Goku shouldn't care about his parents beyond "Look Vegeta, turns out my parents were good Saiyans like you are now". There's no justification for what appears to be a trigger to unlock UI.

If Goku memories return, will his personality from before do the same? He was a little monster. Probably not...
This might be a bit dramatic but this feels like a complete murder of Grandpa Gohan's character, whose point was the new parent to the now Human Goku after the "death" of the Saiyan Goku.

[Lord Beerus]

3. This is potentially very fucking bad. Saying that Goku has unresolved issues because he can't remember stuff about his parentage is really fucking lame. Goku doesn't care about his saiyan heritage because he was raised on Earth. Bringing back up shit just to reference the movie and thrusting his father into a key role just because he's Goku's father is some lame determinism shit that the original manga went out of its way to shit on. Determinism tied to genetics isn't Dragonball.

3B. It fucking sucks to integrate so much Saiyan history into Goku's development when the whole crux of the conflict between him and Vegeta during the original manga was that Goku was a saiyan who didn't give 2 shits about any of Saiyan culture, and thus was unshackled, while Vegeta was the opposite.

So couple issues with this. The reason Goku didn't care about the Saiyans isn't just because of Gohan and living on earth. Its becase for all intents and purposes he had good reason to assume that all saiyans were evil and his own parents shipped him off the earth because he was weak. And he told Raditz he's no brother of his because he was a murderer. Not because he was a Saiyan. Goku learning that his parents didn't throw him away and they actually cared about him should affect him. And honestly if it doesn't it makes Goku feel very 2 dimensional.

But the problem with this is that Goku was never told his parent sent to Earth in the original manga. All Goku was told, regarding how he ended up on Earth, was that Saiyan as children was sent to weaker planets to not only depopulate them but to hone their skills as warriors from a young age. So the idea of Bardock sending Goku to Earth out of concern for him shouldn't affect him that much especially considering Goku has already seen a pure representation of the Saiyan race (Vegeta) develop and mature and become a friendly and compassionate person.

If the whole purpose of Goku's memories being triggered was to have personal development of Goku realising that his parents (and by proxy the Saiyan race) aren't as collectively heartless and brutish as he believed them to be, then that emotional impact comes as across as artificial best and disgustingly trite at worst. Goku has already witnessed that mentality being shattered, not just by Vegeta's character development, but by his own character development. And this is the crux of the problem I have with story elements from Dragon Ball Minus being crowbarred in.

The major reason why Goku embracing his Saiyan heritage is such an emotionally powerful story and character beat in the original manga is because he's fully aware of the culture of the Saiyan race and their role in the universe. Goku knowing he defied the natural convention of the genocidal, sociopathic, bloodthirsty, space pirate warrior race -- albeit through sheer good fortune -- he was born from is what make his journey as the martial artists are the more compelling.

Knowing what Goku could have been created a wonderful bit of personal conflict for Goku as he rejects the Saiyan culture and embraces himself as an Earthling. This introspective commentary also serves as the foundation for all the emotional depth and character development for Goku for the conflict with Freeza -- because Goku recognises that he needs to embrace a part of his Saiyan culture to conquer his greatest challenge at the time. He needs the unique strength that he was biologically given as a Saiyan to defeat Freeza. This is what makes the "Son Goku... The Super Saiyan" speech works so damn well as an out-of-character moment. And it's what makes Goku mastering Super Saiyan and removing the innate barbarism and sadism that was attached to transformation all the more cathartic as it was a representation of how "Saiyan" Goku will never override what "Earthling" Goku is.

To get back to the main point before I continue to ramble on -- I hope Goku's getting triggered of his last memories of Bardock and Gine don't lead to the sickly sentimental bullshit of "My parents... loved me?" or something of that tone to act as a segue into Goku attaining a unique version of Ultra Instinct. That's the kind of glurge bullshit that shonen manga over the past 20+ years have indulged in and Dragon Ball, at least in the manga, tactfully avoided. Not to mention shit like that would have such a negative ripple effect on some of the core themes of several arcs in the manga, as well as Goku's entire character development.

[Gridlock]

A podcast I listen to has an Asian-American host. He said Shang Chi was a very bizarre movie for him because Shang Chi is a guy, like him, who grew up in America and has no connection to China. So it was baffling to him that the movie pretended that going back to his “homeland” and “culture” was cathartic for him. “My culture and my homeland are America. I can’t even speak Chinese!”

That’s what this stinks of to me.

But Shang Chi didn't grew up in USA. He went there at the age of 14, after being rised in China. He came back some ten years later after his self imposed exile, meet a family member he didn't know about, who was native Chinese, and learned from her about his family legacy. He has plenty connection to China. That comparsion doesn't make sense.

[Tai Lung]

The problem is how at most they thought "maybe something is wrong", but didn't follow up on it much, doing absolutely nothing, and it gets more ridiculous the longer it goes on because Otto acts less and less like Peter over time and nobody can tell that's not Peter, and that keep going for over 30 issues, even more if you count the other comics Spider-Otto showed up in.

Normal humans couldn't do anything... and Otto controlled himself a lot even when MJ denied the approaches, he accepted it

and I don't know what you're talking about the avengers literally kidnapped him