Sorrow and Melancholy

[Yuji]

One thing that always struck me about Dragon Ball is how light-hearted and upbeat it is. Tragic or sad moments are either not treated with the seriousness they could be treated with, or the series' fast pacing immediately moves on from them not letting the audience dwell on what just happened. Plenty of other Shounen series unfortunately do the opposite and appeal to tragedy way too often to the point of melodrama. The absence of this in Dragon Ball should make the intentionally sad moments hit harder, but it's rare to hear fans talk about how the sad moments have impacted them. Usually it's the heroic and comedic or light-hearted elements that have an impact, instead.

I think it's curious the most melancholic the series ever got was with GT and Super, when Toriyama was less involved or even uninvolved. You can probably infer that Toriyama wouldn't want to dwell too much on negative emotions in a children's series but I'm wondering if he ever touches up on this at all in his interviews?

Also, general thoughts on the way the series writes sadness?

[dva_raza]

I think it's curious the most melancholic the series ever got was with GT and Super

What I’ve felt is a general lack of "consequences" for almost every tragic or serious event that happens, and maybe that makes it loose a bit of it's meaningfulness. Vegeta dying in Majin arc for example, what he goes through in movie 12 is perfect for me. It's definitely more depressing but it's more significant. What happens to him in the anime I find it underwhelming.
But it's not a melancholic show and if they were to “dwell” or explore sadness more it would divert it’s tone and rythm. So I think the balance is good enough, and the tragic events are always impactful and significant nevertheless.

[Vijay]

One thing that always struck me about Dragon Ball is how light-hearted and upbeat it is. Tragic or sad moments are either not treated with the seriousness they could be treated with, or the series' fast pacing immediately moves on from them not letting the audience dwell on what just happened. Plenty of other Shounen series unfortunately do the opposite and appeal to tragedy way too often to the point of melodrama. The absence of this in Dragon Ball should make the intentionally sad moments hit harder, but it's rare to hear fans talk about how the sad moments have impacted them. Usually it's the heroic and comedic or light-hearted elements that have an impact, instead.

I think it's curious the most melancholic the series ever got was with GT and Super, when Toriyama was less involved or even uninvolved. You can probably infer that Toriyama wouldn't want to dwell too much on negative emotions in a children's series but I'm wondering if he ever touches up on this at all in his interviews?

Also, general thoughts on the way the series writes sadness?

Toriyama was a simple & practical man. Him handling Goku's past just like that stands testimony to that notion. Looking forward & be optimistic as Goku

Any other show would've included tons of emotional drama, all those moments you mentioned under pretense of adding "depth" to MC/series whatnot.

They were emotional moments when Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta sacrificed. And they're do so well be it in the manga or anime

But most of the time, DragonBall's a fun-filled show. DB even more so than DBZ thx to its humor & adventure

Dbgt & supa simply cant capsulate those magic cuz 1. Corporate replaced soul of those shows & 2. Toyo isnt anywhere near as terrific as Toriyama was durin DB-DBZ days

[Majin Buu]

Toriyama's not the kind of writer that does sorrow or melancholy, he's said it himself in interviews. It's much like how he doesn't really depict romance.

He could try, but he would clearly be out of his element and the results would likely be lacking (Dragon Ball Minus, his take on a story that originally had pathos and melancholy, was pretty much that). Exploring interpersonal relationships and human emotions with any kind of depth just isn't his wheelhouse.

Toriyama is generally at his best when he sticks to what he knows, and I've never held that against him.

[Grimlock]

Also, general thoughts on the way the series writes sadness?

Great. When it wants to, it really knows how to make an impact. And not even just the series, Dimps managed to make such a heartbroken scene with Trunks reuniting with Gohan in Xenoverse 2, it became one of my favorite moments of the franchise.

Since there's not many sadness moments, I have a soft spot for all of those scenes. And sometimes I find myself revisiting these scenes. Curiously, whether it was their intention or not, the destruction of planet Vegeta is also sad to me, even though we are talking about an "evil" race. Both versions are epic.

[DragonBallFoodie]

There are some points of sorrow and melancholy - the deaths that do not get resurrected, the tragic pasts of a few characters - but on the whole, Toriyama dwells on them just enough and then moves on with the plot and its adventure and fun, a matter of precise and sound judgement from him.

[ChronoTwigger]

Melancholy and sadness have any effect if they definitely "chisel" characters, narratively. If not they are just the silly drama you've quoted.
That's why Future Trunks sound different as Present Trunks. He testified Gohan struggles to the last and that surely had a permanent impact on him. He's a "sad character", leading to "sad/emotive stories".
Goku is on the good side and when he does win he cleanse evil, also by avoid being evil himself. As Goku is the medium you'll experience that universe, there's no place for actual sadness or melancholy. His opponents are all unprincipled characters, and when he does find one that's not entirely "evil", he does whatever to avoid elimination - see Vegeta.

On a melancholy or sad story, Goku had to have regrets, scars and losses even when winning. He must fail, sometime, while Goku never fail to reach his goal: clean evil from the world. He does mess up the journey, but not the goal. And everything end with big laughs. To have a sad story, you'll need "sad characters" as opponents too, while DB ones are surely and eventually evil. They doesn't have reasonable and human goals. You don't empathize with them.
If they were, Goku will be a "sad character" too by defeating them.

That's mostly an unconsious reason of the big success of Dragon Ball: it's "pure fantasy", with good and evil incarnations and you love when goodness triumph and be still pure even after. It's a trademark.

[Peach]

The Zamasu arc was probably the darkest thing in the franchise since Piccolo Daimao and The History of Trunks.

[Krillin1994]

I think we just feel the sorrow isn't there with the hindsight when everything ends up okay.

I would like to see the reaction on this forum if the Saiyan Saga aired for the first time now, having all the Z team dying, with Chiaotzu seemingly unable to come back. The dragonballs disappearing.

In Kai the insert song when Bulma breaks down as they collect the corpses, and Roshi and Korin lament that they are powerless to change anything always hits hard. Even with Krillin's Namek idea, it is all very bittersweet at best.

I always find it to be such an underated Roshi moment and think it is possibly my favourite moment from him. The dissent amongst everyone - Bulma exploding at Yajirobe, Chi Chi's anger towards Goku. All feels like very real reactions to the situation.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Not sure if it really counts a sorrow but one of the more serious scenes that stuck out to me is Tien confronting Roshi while Goku was fighting Krllin. The sunset , the music, and choreography is beautiful. Roshi telling him he does not have to worry about the next gen and Tien isn't cut out to be evil. It's just a such a great scene which makes 22nd tournament probably my favorite.

[SupremeKai25]

The Zamasu arc was probably the darkest thing in the franchise since Piccolo Daimao and The History of Trunks.

Yes. But it proves that Dragon Ball does the concept of "sorrow" badly, wouldn't you agree?

Goku and co. witnessed literal multiversal genocide and in the next scene they're eating and having fun...

Then people say "oh but Dragon Ball doesn't take itself too seriously, it's a light-hearted show"... okay but it shouldn't try to do these depressing dark endings then

I actually really liked that ending because for once the Dragon Balls can't just fix everything. What Zamasu did is irreversible. But at the same time, I don't like how the writers handled the reaction of the main characters, at all. They should all have massive PTSD from watching a literal Cosmos get erased in front of them. But, aside from one short flashback in the TOP arc, where they're talking about how they already saw Zeno's ability in action, it is never brought up.

[WittyUsername]

These days, I almost find myself wishing that Dragon Ball would end in the bleakest and most depressing way possible. Something like the finale to the 2012 Ninja Turtles show.

[Cipher]

Although Super Episode 67 is the only moment in the meta-series to ever make me full-on tear up, I think it's fair to say the manga's more brisk approach to the ending of that arc is more in line with Toriyama's tone.

He doesn't do much dwelling on sadness, but the little bittersweet moments or spots of sincere joy, such as Goku and Granpa Gohan's reunion, or Goku's farewell to the gang at the end of the Cell arc, really do hit home because of the overall guileless sincerity of the series, and particularly because it's so measured on emotional melodrama.

Though it's rarely mined for any particular emotional payoff, I also love the series' overall sincerity as far the passage of time. Continuing to age the characters into somewhat more normal, frumpy lives was, I think, a pretty inspired, weirdly unsafe choice on the part of GT. But that too isn't really something Toriyama is interested in, even if his approach allows for it. That said, I appreciate little elements like the way characters simply drop out of contact with one another over the course of the original run. Life happens.

[Yuji]

Although Super Episode 67 is the only moment in the meta-series to ever make me full-on tear up, I think it's fair to say the manga's more brisk approach to the ending of that arc is more in line with Toriyama's tone.

He doesn't do much dwelling on sadness, but the little bittersweet moments or spots of sincere joy, such as Goku and Granpa Gohan's reunion, or Goku's farewell to the gang at the end of the Cell arc, really do hit home because of the overall guileless sincerity of the series, and particularly because it's so measured on emotional melodrama.

Though it's rarely mined for any particular emotional payoff, I also love the series' overall sincerity as far the passage of time. Continuing to age the characters into somewhat more normal, frumpy lives was, I think, a pretty inspired, weirdly unsafe choice on the part of GT. But that too isn't really something Toriyama is interested in, even if his approach allows for it. That said, I appreciate little elements like the way characters simply drop out of contact with one another over the course of the original run. Life happens.

How do you feel about the frequent reunions and parties the cast throws now in Super?

[Cipher]

How do you feel about the frequent reunions and parties the cast throws now in Super?

I mean I'm not, like, a huge fan of it, but what are you going to do when the premise is that the main cast are meeting up to face a new crisis every few months or so?

Tenshinhan and certain others could probably stand to show up less often though.

[Majin Buu]

Though it's rarely mined for any particular emotional payoff, I also love the series' overall sincerity as far the passage of time. Continuing to age the characters into somewhat more normal, frumpy lives was, I think, a pretty inspired, weirdly unsafe choice on the part of GT. But that too isn't really something Toriyama is interested in, even if his approach allows for it. That said, I appreciate little elements like the way characters simply drop out of contact with one another over the course of the original run. Life happens.

I think this speaks to something a lot of fans pick up on when they critique Toriyama's storytelling, particularly whenever talk about "wasted potential" comes up: The way he wrote Dragon Ball allows for far more potential than he had any interest in delivering on. Toriyama just wasn't an ambitious storyteller, if he had been, Dragon Ball would look more like One Piece; at least in the sense that it would be more cohesive with its storytelling and worldbuilding.

But then, we'd possibly lose the irreverence that's always come with Toriyama's writing; and while I'm sure some fans would appreciate Toriyama taking Dragon Ball as seriously as they do, that irreverence about his own work is something I've always appreciated about him and wouldn't trade for anything.

[Yuji]

I think Dragon Ball is very ambitious. The mixing of genres was and still is unprecedented in the medium. Whether that comes as a direct result of Toriyama's ambition or unique personality is a different thing entirely.

[PacificOceanDub]

I would argue that parts of the original Dragon Ball are pretty dang melancholy. Particularly Kuririn's death after the 22nd Tournament, as well as Chaozu and Muten Roshi after that. But like others have said, there's a general lack of consequences regarding these things. I just feel like that's more of the case in Z, and that DB still has it's share of bummers.

[Ashur]

Dragon Ball does sorrow really well, Goku's reaction to seeing Grandpa Gohan, the loss of Roshi and Krillin in the Piccolo Daimao Arc, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo dying in the Nappa fight, Vegeta's death at the hands of Frieza, it's all really well handled emotionally, even Future Gohan's death in the manga has a great feeling of silent melancholy.

The anime does this aspect a bit more than the manga, but both do it effectively in their medium, an instance of Sorrow and Melancholy that felt stronger in the manga was Majin Vegeta's regret and sacrifice, when he hugged Trunks for the first time, his bloodied face expressing such softness we've never seen before, even with the mark of the evil magician on him, it was the most expressive we ever saw Vegeta, all in black and white, a look of regret but filled with love for his son.

I don't get where you're getting that most people remember Dragon Ball's fun loving moments more than these kind of scenes, since the sacrifices and reactions to them are usually people's top scenes, Android 16's death and Gohan's transformation for instance, is probably the most liked Dragon Ball scene overall.