Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[picc]

I’ve heard. In actuality he cant be that weak though, and has to be closer to Goku’s 8000.

[Koitsukai]

Goku was over +8,000, (meme aside), and Nappa, after getting his shit together was being a decent rival, something he wouldn't be able to do if he was just half as strong as Goku.

His 4,000 works only in the initial portion of the arc and when Goku arrived. But after Geet's pep talk, he at least has to be +6,000.

[Thani]

I wouldn't put too much stock into the numbers themselves, imo.

Nappa can be 4000 and still perform pretty well against Goku's 8000. Bardock being close to Nappa would fit, too, since he's supposed to be reaching the middle class in power as per Word of God.

[picc]

What precedent is there for a fighter performing like Nappa with that kind of power deficit?

Nappa had just obliterated a bunch of fighters who were closer to him than 4k would make him to Goku. Easily killed Piccolo who was only 1500 weaker according to those official numbers. Dodoria was at a 3-4k max deficit against Vegeta and was utterly helpless. Zarbon at a 2-3k deficit was totally dominated by Vegeta.

There's no way Nappa accomplishes any of what he did (able to melee evenly, causes panic with a blast, goku says "this could take forever" about beating him, requires kaioken to disable) at a 4k deficit at that point in the series. It may as well have been a million. Going by the zeitgeist in the series at the moment, he had to have been at least 7k or so.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What precedent is there for a fighter performing like Nappa with that kind of power deficit?

Nappa had just obliterated a bunch of fighters who were closer to him than 4k would make him to Goku. Easily killed Piccolo who was only 1500 weaker according to those official numbers. Dodoria was at a 3-4k max deficit against Vegeta and was utterly helpless. Zarbon at a 2-3k deficit was totally dominated by Vegeta.

There's no way Nappa accomplishes any of what he did (able to melee evenly, causes panic with a blast, goku says "this could take forever" about beating him, requires kaioken to disable) at a 4k deficit at that point in the series. It may as well have been a million. Going by the zeitgeist in the series at the moment, he had to have been at least 7k.

DBS sets the precedent with plenty of fights with massive differences that are still manageable.

Not every case of performance needs a specific level of required power.

[Miracles]

Goku was over +8,000, (meme aside), and Nappa, after getting his shit together was being a decent rival, something he wouldn't be able to do if he was just half as strong as Goku.

His 4,000 works only in the initial portion of the arc and when Goku arrived. But after Geet's pep talk, he at least has to be +6,000.

Bingo. After Nappa cooled his head, he was able to compete with Kakarott.

[picc]

What precedent is there for a fighter performing like Nappa with that kind of power deficit?

Nappa had just obliterated a bunch of fighters who were closer to him than 4k would make him to Goku. Easily killed Piccolo who was only 1500 weaker according to those official numbers. Dodoria was at a 3-4k max deficit against Vegeta and was utterly helpless. Zarbon at a 2-3k deficit was totally dominated by Vegeta.

There's no way Nappa accomplishes any of what he did (able to melee evenly, causes panic with a blast, goku says "this could take forever" about beating him, requires kaioken to disable) at a 4k deficit at that point in the series. It may as well have been a million. Going by the zeitgeist in the series at the moment, he had to have been at least 7k.

DBS sets the precedent with plenty of fights with massive differences that are still manageable.

Not every case of performance needs a specific level of required power.

At that point in time it did. There is no rational justification for Nappa being half Goku's power given what occurred in their fight. Just not possible.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What precedent is there for a fighter performing like Nappa with that kind of power deficit?

Nappa had just obliterated a bunch of fighters who were closer to him than 4k would make him to Goku. Easily killed Piccolo who was only 1500 weaker according to those official numbers. Dodoria was at a 3-4k max deficit against Vegeta and was utterly helpless. Zarbon at a 2-3k deficit was totally dominated by Vegeta.

There's no way Nappa accomplishes any of what he did (able to melee evenly, causes panic with a blast, goku says "this could take forever" about beating him, requires kaioken to disable) at a 4k deficit at that point in the series. It may as well have been a million. Going by the zeitgeist in the series at the moment, he had to have been at least 7k.

DBS sets the precedent with plenty of fights with massive differences that are still manageable.

Not every case of performance needs a specific level of required power.

At that point in time it did. There is no rational justification for Nappa being half Goku's power given what occurred in their fight. Just not possible.

I doubt Toriyama could provide any kind of real answer nowadays given his lack of care over such frivolous details as battle power readings, so there's no point turning to trying to figure out his opinion.

It's not a big deal. Either Nappa has a higher power level than his official one, or he was just a tough bastard that hung in there and made Goku work for it despite being weaker. Either works; there isn't really "is impossible" regarding this fiction.

[ZombieVito]

Nappa's official 4,000 number is fine. He does nothing in his fight against Goku that suggests he was close to him.

How he survived that long against an opponent twice as strong? His physique. He's a tough bastard, just like Goku comments.

[picc]

DBS sets the precedent with plenty of fights with massive differences that are still manageable.

Not every case of performance needs a specific level of required power.

At that point in time it did. There is no rational justification for Nappa being half Goku's power given what occurred in their fight. Just not possible.

I doubt Toriyama could provide any kind of real answer nowadays given his lack of care over such frivolous details as battle power readings, so there's no point turning to trying to figure out his opinion.

It's not a big deal. Either Nappa has a higher power level than his official one, or he was just a tough bastard that hung in there and made Goku work for it despite being weaker. Either works; there isn't really "is impossible" regarding this fiction.

Eh. A tough bastard that makes an opponent work is someone who takes a lot of damage and won't go down, while being dominated otherwise. Nappa fought Goku in a direct melee, evenly trading blows and dodges. Which is classic indication of close/equal power levels. Immediately after, Goku said beating him would "take forever". There is no explanation for those two phenomena that doesn't put them close in power, let alone one being twice as strong as the other.

For Nappa to be at a max of 4k, he consequently must have calmed down/powered up from his previous level vs Piccolo and the earthlings. So lets say he was at 3 or 3.5k vs them. He KO'd the 2500 Piccolo with one elbow and killed him with one blast at a max 1k advantage. Then powered up to 4k against Goku, who had a 4k advantage but had to resort to kaioken...? Not feasible given the context. If this hadn't all happened in the same story, there could be a time-related inconsistency argument. But it did.

However, I do understand you feel differently about the guides than I do, so I'll respect that. We can agree to disagree.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nappa had an even fight with Goku, and regardless of how power levels work, 4,000 is simply not equal 8,000+. Granted Nappa was a tough guy, but so was Recoome. He and Nappa even canceled out each other’s attacks, though I’m willing to give Goku a small lead since his Kamehameha was a hastily charged one.

The 4,000 number dates back to the writing of the Saiyan Saga and might have been defined by AT himself since they were published in the same magazine the mangas was being published though.

[Sora Saiyan]

Nappa being 4k always sat wrong for me. His fight with Goku once Nappa had calmed down was close, I know Goku was still playing around, but a 2x difference is astronomical in the series at that point. An example of how absurd a 100% difference between characters is shown just a little while later as we see Vegeta comfortably beating on Goku with a measly gap of around 10% and Goku dominating Vegeta with a gap of 30+% upon using KKx3. Yet Goku with a 100% increase on Nappas power is meant to have a relatively close battle? Goku against the Ginyu force is the next time we see a character being twice as strong as the foes and that's ridiculously easy for Goku.
We also have Vegeta exclaiming that Goku can't beat Nappa if he keeps his cool, and Nappa also agrees with Vegeta once this is stated (although Nappa didnt totally believe the over 8k, but Vegeta did). Admittedly Vegeta didn't want to get his hands dirty, but he clearly believes that Nappa wont just be steamrolled. Vegeta knew that Goku had power to spare however, but even that alludes to the him knowing that Goku has more power in reserve post "over 8000".

In conclusion Nappa shouldn't be miles off of Goku, using Gokus showing against Recoome as an example of the same gap, and later Jeice and Burta. There's also second form Freeza being around twice as strong as Vegeta, and later final form Freeza destroying Vegeta with a gap less than 2x.

[Koitsukai]

I take with a big grain of salt every number that comes from NOT Toriyama, such as SS multipliers and PL levels such as Nappa's.

He had an even fight with Goku, whose power was stated by Toriyama to be over 8,000.
You can't do that with half the power, besides Nappa's greatest feat wasn't just taking a beating and not going down, which is what you'd expect from a dude with high endurance (what FPSSBroly did for example), he was matching speed amongst other things.

We've seen what twice the power can do to Perfect Cell. And that is if we follow the supplementary material, who has SS2 twice as strong as SS. So either a 2x boost is one-shot material, or it's a vague gap that isn't that impressive. All based on ancillary material.
If we go by the manga, then the Namek arc proves a 2x boost is way too much.

[Hugo Boss]

My headcanon is that Nappa’s battle power of 4,000 is his auraless version, while his aura version is 8,000. That might explain why he has such a wide jump in performance when he is fighting Goku. He was being steamrolled and then started to gain even on Goku. You could also attribute it to the Saiyan ability of shortening gaps when they fight strong opponents.

[The Monkey King]

According to the Daizenshuu

Piccolo (3500) vs Nappa (4000)

Piccolo gets one shotted by Nappa twice

Nappa (4000) vs Goku (8000+)

Goku and Nappa fight as near equals

Nappa's PL of 4000 has always seemed dumb to me, I always thought 6000+ works better for him and the number 6 just sounds strong in Japanese "roku / ろく"

[Thani]

We've seen what twice the power can do to Perfect Cell. And that is if we follow the supplementary material, who has SS2 twice as strong as SS. So either a 2x boost is one-shot material, or it's a vague gap that isn't that impressive. All based on ancillary material.
If we go by the manga, then the Namek arc proves a 2x boost is way too much.

It's both at the same time. It just depends on the author's whim, honestly.

[picc]

Everything you guys said. And Vegeta and Nappa both believed he would still beat Goku. “Thats enough! Get down here Nappa, it’ll take forever with you!”

Vegeta’s concern was that it would take a longer time than he was willing to wait. That doesnt mean he would have defeated Goku. But thats a lot of confidence in a fighter that was half the power of his opponent.

Nappa also had a new “charged” aura around him in the second portion of the fight. After he told Goku “now you’ll see what I can really do”, and literally “charged up”. That obviously happened for a reason.

I’ve always estimated him at around 7500. Given what happened before Goku showed up, and the dynamics we see in the saiyan and namek saga about how power differences look in fights, he had to be close to Goku. Not exactly equal, but even a 1k difference would have been visually pronounced at that point in time.

[picc]

According to the Daizenshuu

Piccolo (3500) vs Nappa (4000)

Piccolo gets one shotted by Nappa twice

Nappa (4000) vs Goku (8000+)

Goku and Nappa fight as near equals

Nappa's PL of 4000 has always seemed dumb to me, I always thought 6000+ works better for him and the number 6 just sounds strong in Japanese "roku / ろく"

For some reason I thought piccolo’s guidebook level was 2500. This just looks even sillier.

I'm sure AT skimmed through the guidebooks at some point, but in more of a “yeah, uh huh, sure, now where’s my check?” way, than combing through to make sure it actually made sense. I dont think he cares enough about power levels to nitpick some guesstimates from the guide staff. We’re the ones who care (unfortunately for us).

Unless a number came straight from a scouter or a characters mouth (ie. AT’s mouth), I'm just not interested though.

I do respect that some people feel differently though. Maybe that just means two separate conversations will need to be had internally between “camps”, so to speak.

[dbgtFO]

Classic old Nappa debate and I agree with the closee to 8,000 fan estimate.
The 4,000 figure seems to be something Toriyama had in mind at the start of the arc and this is what he gave to the crew that compiled the numbers for the BP guide in the very same magazine DB was published in.
Then given Nappa's performance after calming down, it seems like there was a change in regards to how Toriyama envisioned his power, probably due to needing an introduction for Kaioken.

Toriyama is quoted in an interview as saying he would go into the story with an idea of how strong characters were supposed to be, but then this would change depending on the story's needs and for me this seems like one of those cases.
Too bad apparently he didn't bother to correct the value for the team collecting the battle powers or maybe he forgot
But this is all we can assume with the limited information we have and no one knows what the real truth is

[Lukmendes]

Bingo. After Nappa cooled his head, he was able to compete with Kakarott.

Even before that, Goku comments that Nappa is really tough, and after Nappa cools his head, both Goku and Vegeta point out that the fight would take forever.

I think Nappa was near Goku's level similar to how Piccolo was near Goku's level in the 23rd tournament, with Goku being strong enough to keep humiliating the opponent, but the opponent being just strong enough for the battle to not end too fast, but Nappa is significantly weaker in comparison with Goku, since Goku vs Piccolo had Piccolo getting good licks and tanking attacks without getting seriously hurt, while Nappa, he also didn't get seriously hurt, but was outplayed too much.

It'd make more sense to say Nappa's power level is at around 7000 at least, and I have a theory that the reason why they went for 4000 in databooks is because Nappa is shocked when Vegeta says that a power level of 5000 is coming, and if that's the case, it's a weird way to miss the point of that scene, 'cause Nappa is just shocked someone that strong is coming, and Vegeta is similarly shocked when Goku's power level is over 8000, even though he's more than twice as strong as that.

Nappa's official 4,000 number is fine. He does nothing in his fight against Goku that suggests he was close to him.

How he survived that long against an opponent twice as strong? His physique. He's a tough bastard, just like Goku comments.

Physique in DB mostly doesn't mean anything though, it's a running gag that strong looking characters can be taken down really fast, or that between the strong looking character and the weak looking one, the strong looking character is far weaker.

I take with a big grain of salt every number that comes from NOT Toriyama, such as SS multipliers and PL levels such as Nappa's.

I would say that at least SS1's multiplier must be close enough to what the manga ends up implying, because Goku uses a Kaiokenx20 on Freeza who's only using 50% of his power, Goku is hoping that he's lying about that, but the kamehameha only hurts Freeza, while SS1 overwhelms Freeza, and is still stronger than Freeza at 100% power.

That possibly means SS1 must be twice as strong as kaiokenx20, or a power around that level, to make such a colossal difference in how much it outmatches Freeza, SS2 and 3 multiplier are debatable though, but SS3 must be a huge deal to be such a drain for someone who's dead (SS2 doesn't do anything like that), and for a fusion (And fusion wasn't nearly as fragile in Z, while Trunks and Goten say that SS3 made the fusion end earlier, that doesn't actually happen when they fight Super Boo, they detransform first because they used SS3 for too long, then they defuse because the time limit ran out), stuff like that makes me see why databooks decided to say it's 4x stronger than SS2.

Toriyama is quoted in an interview as saying he would go into the story with an idea of how strong characters were supposed to be, but then this would change depending on the story's needs and for me this seems like one of those cases.

That would explain why Goku says he's not sure he could beat Fat Boo soon after their fight, but at the end of Boo saga, when he's about to fight Kid Boo, he says he could've beaten Fat Boo back then.