Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Or everyone's recent favourite, base/SS Goku taking on Ikari Broly for an extended period.

Yeah, I was giving out a manga example since some people get emotional if I used a Toei scene to debate.

Goku does say Future Zamasu is leaps and bounds above his present self after all.

I don't remember this at all. Mind giving me the episode number where he says it?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Or everyone's recent favourite, base/SS Goku taking on Ikari Broly for an extended period.

Yeah, I was giving out a manga example since some people get emotional if I used a Toei scene to debate.

Goku does say Future Zamasu is leaps and bounds above his present self after all.

I don't remember this at all. Mind giving me the episode number where he says it?

Episode 57 when they first meet and fight. Goku charged Zamasu in Blue and gets his punch blocked. There’s a flashback to his fight with Present Zamasu and Goku notes he’s not the same as before.

[Thani]

Or everyone's recent favourite, base/SS Goku taking on Ikari Broly for an extended period.

Yeah, I was giving out a manga example since some people get emotional if I used a Toei scene to debate.

Goku does say Future Zamasu is leaps and bounds above his present self after all.

I don't remember this at all. Mind giving me the episode number where he says it?

Episode 57 when they first meet and fight. Goku charged Zamasu in Blue and gets his punch blocked. There’s a flashback to his fight with Present Zamasu and Goku notes he’s not the same as before.

I guess it makes sense since he was able to block his punch, but "he's different" does not necessarily translate to "by leaps and bounds stronger than before". But it's DB, so it might as well do!

[Lukmendes]

Episode 57 when they first meet and fight. Goku charged Zamasu in Blue and gets his punch blocked. There’s a flashback to his fight with Present Zamasu and Goku notes he’s not the same as before.

All he says there is that something is different about him, and that's probably a hint that Future Zamasu isn't the Zamasu he met before.

[ZombieVito]

Episode 57 when they first meet and fight. Goku charged Zamasu in Blue and gets his punch blocked. There’s a flashback to his fight with Present Zamasu and Goku notes he’s not the same as before.

Oh that one.

I don't necessarily agree with it being a power statement.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I really don’t see how that line can’t be taken as anything other than a power statement when they were fighting and Goku is remembering their last fight. His immortality hadn’t been revealed yet and it doesn’t improve his durability.

[Thani]

I really don’t see how that line can’t be taken as anything other than a power statement when they were fighting and Goku is remembering their last fight. His immortality hadn’t been revealed yet and it doesn’t improve his durability.

But I guess it would make sense because, after all, this Zamasu is NOT the Zamasu that Goku fought before. He could be different because his ki is literally different from the other one - not by much, but just the small detail that could make Goku feel he's weird.

[ZombieVito]

I really don’t see how that line can’t be taken as anything other than a power statement when they were fighting and Goku is remembering their last fight. His immortality hadn’t been revealed yet and it doesn’t improve his durability.

If it were a power statement then Goku would have easily said that Future Zamasu was stronger but he never did.

At this point in the story we still don't know this Zamasu is the one from the future world so Goku's line is most likely foreshadowing that.

[Goku9001]

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

What in Kami's name are you talking about?

I'm talking about when he fights SSJR Goku Black directly in the anime. He kicks away Goku Black which causes Goku Black to power up. Goku Black only powers up against powerful opponents. Therefore, SSJ2 Trunks is deemed powerful relative to SSJR Goku Black.

If you still don't know what I'm talking about, then I suggest you go back and rewatch the episode.

[Goku9001]

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly. I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Silly.

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

He was so weak compared to Base Black that he was forced to hide underground and eat disgusting cat food for 1 year, because he was that scared of coming out and facing Base Black ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Based on this fact, we can only assume that SS2 Trunks got a lucky hit on Black, but that otherwise he is complete fodder to him.

SSJ2 Trunks was weaker than Base Goku Black prior to training with Vegeta. After training with Vegeta, his power soared to Blue tier.

SSJ2 Trunks wouldn't have landed a lucky hit on SSJR Goku Black if he were much weaker than him. Goku Black had him in his line of sight and was directly clashing with him which leaves no room to score a lucky hit when you're significantly weaker than him. That's not even acknowledging the fact that Goku Black powered up after getting swatted away which he only does so against powerful opponents.

SSJ2 Trunks (vs. SSJR Goku Black) >> Base Goku Black (Initial) > SSJ2 Trunks (Initial) is what's suggested. His strength doesn't remain the same.

[SupremeKai25]

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

He was so weak compared to Base Black that he was forced to hide underground and eat disgusting cat food for 1 year, because he was that scared of coming out and facing Base Black ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Based on this fact, we can only assume that SS2 Trunks got a lucky hit on Black, but that otherwise he is complete fodder to him.

SSJ2 Trunks was weaker than Base Goku Black prior to training with Vegeta. After training with Vegeta, his power soared to Blue tier.

SSJ2 Trunks wouldn't have landed a lucky hit on SSJR Goku Black if he were much weaker than him. Goku Black had him in his line of sight and was directly clashing with him which leaves no room to score a lucky hit when you're significantly weaker than him. That's not even acknowledging the fact that Goku Black powered up after getting swatted away which he only does so against powerful opponents.

SSJ2 Trunks (vs. SSJR Goku Black) >> Base Goku Black (Initial) > SSJ2 Trunks (Initial) is what's suggested. His strength doesn't remain the same.

I'm going to be very blunt and honest with you.

The power-scaling in Dragon Ball Super is complete ass, like it sucks.

If you're going to scale SS2 Trunks to Black's level because of that lucky hit he got, then you must also scale Sorbet to SSB Goku's level. The circumstances are the same (lucky/cheap shot on an off-guard opponent who should be exponentially stronger; and if anything Sorbet's case is even worse since he almost killed Goku, while Black shrugged off Trunks' attack). Are you willing to do this?

[Goku9001]

He was so weak compared to Base Black that he was forced to hide underground and eat disgusting cat food for 1 year, because he was that scared of coming out and facing Base Black ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Based on this fact, we can only assume that SS2 Trunks got a lucky hit on Black, but that otherwise he is complete fodder to him.

SSJ2 Trunks was weaker than Base Goku Black prior to training with Vegeta. After training with Vegeta, his power soared to Blue tier.

SSJ2 Trunks wouldn't have landed a lucky hit on SSJR Goku Black if he were much weaker than him. Goku Black had him in his line of sight and was directly clashing with him which leaves no room to score a lucky hit when you're significantly weaker than him. That's not even acknowledging the fact that Goku Black powered up after getting swatted away which he only does so against powerful opponents.

SSJ2 Trunks (vs. SSJR Goku Black) >> Base Goku Black (Initial) > SSJ2 Trunks (Initial) is what's suggested. His strength doesn't remain the same.

I'm going to be very blunt and honest with you.

The power-scaling in Dragon Ball Super is complete ass, like it sucks.

If you're going to scale SS2 Trunks to Black's level because of that lucky hit he got, then you must also scale Sorbet to SSB Goku's level. The circumstances are the same (lucky/cheap shot on an off-guard opponent who should be exponentially stronger; and if anything Sorbet's case is even worse since he almost killed Goku, while Black shrugged off Trunks' attack). Are you willing to do this?

How was it a lucky hit? Sorbet blindsided Goku. Trunks was literally in Goku Black's face, Goku Black deliberately engaged in CQC, and simply got overpowered. Not even comparable circumstances.

As you've said, the power scaling is ass but the implication is clear here. Trunks forced SSJR Goku Black to power up. This is something you have yet to address.

[SupremeKai25]

SSJ2 Trunks was weaker than Base Goku Black prior to training with Vegeta. After training with Vegeta, his power soared to Blue tier.

SSJ2 Trunks wouldn't have landed a lucky hit on SSJR Goku Black if he were much weaker than him. Goku Black had him in his line of sight and was directly clashing with him which leaves no room to score a lucky hit when you're significantly weaker than him. That's not even acknowledging the fact that Goku Black powered up after getting swatted away which he only does so against powerful opponents.

SSJ2 Trunks (vs. SSJR Goku Black) >> Base Goku Black (Initial) > SSJ2 Trunks (Initial) is what's suggested. His strength doesn't remain the same.

I'm going to be very blunt and honest with you.

The power-scaling in Dragon Ball Super is complete ass, like it sucks.

If you're going to scale SS2 Trunks to Black's level because of that lucky hit he got, then you must also scale Sorbet to SSB Goku's level. The circumstances are the same (lucky/cheap shot on an off-guard opponent who should be exponentially stronger; and if anything Sorbet's case is even worse since he almost killed Goku, while Black shrugged off Trunks' attack). Are you willing to do this?

How was it a lucky hit? Sorbet blindsided Goku. Trunks was literally in Goku Black's face, Goku Black deliberately engaged in CQC, and simply got overpowered. Not even comparable circumstances.

As you've said, the power scaling is ass but the implication is clear here. Trunks forced SSJR Goku Black to power up. This is something you have yet to address.

I mean, Goku Black was lunging at/charging at Goku, thinking that he was going to hit Goku. Trunks came out of nowhere and ambushed him, with Black even having a shocked facial expression. He simply wasn't expecting Trunks to come out of nowhere and this left him off-guard, which allowed Trunks to hit him for the first (and last time) as Super Saiyan 2 after like 1 year of fighting him without success.

In the end, Goku Black was simply focused on the fight between Goku and Future Zamasu, and completely ignored Trunks. That's the only reason why Trunks got a lucky hit on him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm going to be very blunt and honest with you.

The power-scaling in Dragon Ball Super is complete ass, like it sucks.

If you're going to scale SS2 Trunks to Black's level because of that lucky hit he got, then you must also scale Sorbet to SSB Goku's level. The circumstances are the same (lucky/cheap shot on an off-guard opponent who should be exponentially stronger; and if anything Sorbet's case is even worse since he almost killed Goku, while Black shrugged off Trunks' attack). Are you willing to do this?

How was it a lucky hit? Sorbet blindsided Goku. Trunks was literally in Goku Black's face, Goku Black deliberately engaged in CQC, and simply got overpowered. Not even comparable circumstances.

As you've said, the power scaling is ass but the implication is clear here. Trunks forced SSJR Goku Black to power up. This is something you have yet to address.

I mean, Goku Black was lunging at/charging at Goku, thinking that he was going to hit Goku. Trunks came out of nowhere and ambushed him, with Black even having a shocked facial expression. He simply wasn't expecting Trunks to come out of nowhere and this left him off-guard, which allowed Trunks to hit him for the first (and last time) as Super Saiyan 2 after like 1 year of fighting him without success.

In the end, Goku Black was simply focused on the fight between Goku and Future Zamasu, and completely ignored Trunks. That's the only reason why Trunks got a lucky hit on him.

If I might provide an example, last year's final bout between Godzilla and Kong against Mechagodzilla.

Mechagodzilla almost solely focuses on beating up Godzilla and mostly just brushes Kong aside. This gives the big ape a few opportunities to blindside Mechagodzilla, and even when Mechagodzilla decides to corner Kong after he gets too greedy with his axe hits, he still doesn't give him anywhere near as much killing intent as he would with Godzilla.

Goku is Goku Black's main course, and when someone else butts in who he deems beneath him, the shock can be enough in the moment to give Future Trunks enough time to land a brief counterattack.

[Koitsukai]

Black doesn't power up, that's not what it was. He was just using his aura to remove the debris around him. We can see how his power-up aura looks like when Vegeta grabs one of his punches and he tries to force the punch into Vegeta, and it is not what he does after Trunks hits him.

You don't get from SS2 level to SSB just because daddy told you DON'T LOSE, not even Gohan got such an easy power boost. DBS can be dumb, but not that dumb. There isn't a SSB bargain sale like so many people believe.

Besides, Trunks is already SSB level with his ragey thing, why force everything to make him SSB from the start??

[Thani]

Adding to that, SS Trunks landed a kick on Majin Buu that sent the demon flying, when he was about to kill Vegeta. Is SS Trunks suddenly as strong as SS3 Goku because of that?

Piccolo also delivered a kick to Freeza's face, when the tyrant was about to kill Goku, that sent him flying and definitely left a mark. Piccolo suddenly got that stronger than Goku?

Yajirobe, without using ki and with just a regular sword, cut off the tail from Vegeta (as an Oozaru), who had a power level of like 180.000. So is Yajirobe or his sword that strong?

[Goku9001]

Adding to that, SS Trunks landed a kick on Majin Buu that sent the demon flying, when he was about to kill Vegeta. Is SS Trunks suddenly as strong as SS3 Goku because of that?

Piccolo also delivered a kick to Freeza's face, when the tyrant was about to kill Goku, that sent him flying and definitely left a mark. Piccolo suddenly got that stronger than Goku?

Yajirobe, without using ki and with just a regular sword, cut off the tail from Vegeta (as an Oozaru), who had a power level of like 180.000. So is Yajirobe or his sword that strong?

Those are horrible examples. Trunks didn't blindside Goku Black. All of the other examples listed had Trunks, Piccolo, and Yajirobe blindside their opponent.

[Goku9001]

Black doesn't power up, that's not what it was. He was just using his aura to remove the debris around him. We can see how his power-up aura looks like when Vegeta grabs one of his punches and he tries to force the punch into Vegeta, and it is not what he does after Trunks hits him.

You don't get from SS2 level to SSB just because daddy told you DON'T LOSE, not even Gohan got such an easy power boost. DBS can be dumb, but not that dumb. There isn't a SSB bargain sale like so many people believe.

Besides, Trunks is already SSB level with his ragey thing, why force everything to make him SSB from the start??

Goku Black pushes back Goku even harder after Goku Black was kicked away. He blatantly powered up.

I'm not seeing the issue here. Even the manga displayed that powerscaling in the arc. I would say Trunks' massive growth in power came from heightened emotions and resolve spurred by Vegeta, which we've seen powered up the Saiyans drastically throughout the arc countless times. That, also motivated him to train much harder which enabled him to fight back Future Zamasu and Goku Black. SSJB Goku never urges Trunks to stay back unlike Kaioshin and Gowasu where Goku explicitly tells them to retreat. It's simply out-of-character for Goku to allow Trunks to remain in the battle if he knew he was much weaker than them.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is definitely one of those examples where you can't always ascribe a strict level of power to one's performance.

Future Trunks gets a hit in an sends Goku Black away, Goku Black doesn't like it and goes harder because of this affront to his pride.

[Goku9001]

This is definitely one of those examples where you can't always ascribe a strict level of power to one's performance.

Future Trunks gets a hit in an sends Goku Black away, Goku Black doesn't like it and goes harder because of this affront to his pride.

He powered up because of his affront to his pride.

This is definitely one of those examples where we can just believe whatever we want to believe.