Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Back to the Kaioshin: I actually have to cop to the distinct possibility that it is just a hierarchical thing with Piccolo having gone back one more time. I’d remembered the Japanese wrong. It’s “ちがすぎる... 次元は...” (“He’s on a whole different ... plane/dimension.”) Could refer to strength, but it’s (intentionally?) playfully ambiguous, and followed up nearly immediately in the manga by Piccolo asking about his divine station. Kaioshin also notes during the match that Piccolo seems to have begun to cotton onto his nature specifically because he’s a former god.

I vote: Definitely stronger than Freeza; not definitely stronger than Piccolo. That interpretation is also present among Japanese fans, so it’s not just a translation issue.

I do agree about Piccolo never really closing the gap between himself and the Super Saiyans from the Cell Games though, at least until the Moro arc, due to exactly the logic Koitsukai lays out last page—a lot of it coming down to those Frost (who seems to slot in perfectly around Semi- to Perfect Cell level) and Trunks interactions.

[Goku9001]

I think the context is quite clear on what Piccolo is referring to. There's an aura of mystery surrounding both Kaioshin and Kibito in which the conversation is centered around their battle power. Upon their introduction, Piccolo questions who they are in which Goku admits to not knowing who they are but sensing that they are significant individuals. Vegeta is curious and worried about how powerful they are given that he can't sense them but has the same suspicions as Goku does. Krillin doesn't seem to think much of it. Later, Goku makes it clear again that Kaioshin and Kibito are both fighters that they should be worried about and makes it clear to Gohan to be careful.

All of these suspicions were centered around their battle power. The reason the Saiyans and Piccolo were all suspicious was because they had no idea who he was. And since Kaioshin and Kibito could not be sensed, knowing who Kaioshin and Kibito were would have clued them in as to how powerful they were before the tournament began.

Once Piccolo and Kaioshin are entering the ring, Vegeta explicitly thinks to himself that their battle will give them an opportunity to see how powerful Kaioshin is.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Which conveys to the reader what the purpose of the fight is i.e identify Kaioshin's battle power. Once Piccolo forfeits, Goku's own expectations are put into question as he responds with "That bad huh?" or something along those lines. Piccolo's response to Goku's question leaves Krillin nervous about battling Kaioshin, despite displaying confidence prior to Kaioshin entering the ring.

I think context makes it quite clear that Piccolo's statement, as oddly worded as it is, is meant to be taken as a power statement. Their lack of means of identifying Kaioshin and Kibito was detrimental in understanding how powerful they were given that their battle power could not be measured. Kaioshn giving us confirmation of Piccolo knowing his identity would suggest that Piccolo's ability to finally identify Kaioshin clued him in on how powerful Kaioshin was, hence both Goku and Krillin's responses. The Daizenshuu is also very blunt about Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo.

The narrative heavily suggests that Kaioshin is Piccolo's superior IMO. Though, it does make me wonder how Kibito compares to Piccolo. If you think Piccolo is stronger than the Base Saiyans, then he is definitely stronger than Kibito. If not, it becomes heavily debatable.

[Koitsukai]

Even though I believe Piccolo stepped down because Kami would not dare to even speak back at Enma, much less fight a Kaioshin, I also believe Shin was stronger than he was. I don't think Shin is stronger than Cell Games SS Goku, but that's still enough to be above Piccolo.

There are a couple of things that could imply Piccolo hasn't gotten much stronger doing his solo training(usually that type of training doesn't bare much fruit besides preventing one from getting weaker). He does nothing in the Buu arc, he doesn't do much in BoG, in RoF he is even below the weakest adult Gohan ever, and by the U6 arc, he is still below SS.
And we know by the FT arc, Goku's SS2 was on par with Trunks'(before his FP that equals SS3), and the latter got the same remark Goku got from Majin Vegeta. The implication is clear, Goku's SS2 isn't that much greater than it was in the Buu arc.
So Goku's SS in a previous arc shouldn't be that far ahead of Piccolo, if Big Green kept getting stronger. I'm thinking the gap from the Cell Games never got closed between them. Goku's lack of confidence in Piccolo vs Frost could fit perfectly with the Cell Games.
RoF is the greatest problem I have with Piccolo's growth.

RE: Goku, Vegeta BoG.
Vegeta was certainly the strongest of the group after his ORE NO BURUMA scene, don't know why Goku would come along with Geets at the top. If it's because Roshi said he had surpassed Goku, like he is the Z milestone, that isn't really enough. Roshi says that because to Vegeta it's more important to surpass Goku, it's about their rivarly. Also, it's clearly a wink to the Vegeta fanclub, we didn't need that line after seeing what Beerus did to SS3 Goku or to the rest of the cast.

I don't know about that. Base Goku was much stronger than SSJ Gohan during Resurrection of F and if the movie's and anime's implications of Goku being the strongest in Battle of Gods holds true here, then there's no way Goku (U6) ~ Goku (Buu). I think that also goes against what Goku tells Goten about always training intensively in case a new threat shows up.

Also, I don't think Roshi cares about his rivalry. I feel as though that's something you're adding to the text.

It literally is about their rivalry. Once they have shown Vegeta do much better than the rest, you don't need any other comment.
It's also not Roshi talking, it's the author stating the obvious.

[Goku9001]

Even though I believe Piccolo stepped down because Kami would not dare to even speak back at Enma, much less fight a Kaioshin, I also believe Shin was stronger than he was. I don't think Shin is stronger than Cell Games SS Goku, but that's still enough to be above Piccolo.

There are a couple of things that could imply Piccolo hasn't gotten much stronger doing his solo training(usually that type of training doesn't bare much fruit besides preventing one from getting weaker). He does nothing in the Buu arc, he doesn't do much in BoG, in RoF he is even below the weakest adult Gohan ever, and by the U6 arc, he is still below SS.
And we know by the FT arc, Goku's SS2 was on par with Trunks'(before his FP that equals SS3), and the latter got the same remark Goku got from Majin Vegeta. The implication is clear, Goku's SS2 isn't that much greater than it was in the Buu arc.
So Goku's SS in a previous arc shouldn't be that far ahead of Piccolo, if Big Green kept getting stronger. I'm thinking the gap from the Cell Games never got closed between them. Goku's lack of confidence in Piccolo vs Frost could fit perfectly with the Cell Games.
RoF is the greatest problem I have with Piccolo's growth.

RE: Goku, Vegeta BoG.
Vegeta was certainly the strongest of the group after his ORE NO BURUMA scene, don't know why Goku would come along with Geets at the top. If it's because Roshi said he had surpassed Goku, like he is the Z milestone, that isn't really enough. Roshi says that because to Vegeta it's more important to surpass Goku, it's about their rivarly. Also, it's clearly a wink to the Vegeta fanclub, we didn't need that line after seeing what Beerus did to SS3 Goku or to the rest of the cast.

I don't know about that. Base Goku was much stronger than SSJ Gohan during Resurrection of F and if the movie's and anime's implications of Goku being the strongest in Battle of Gods holds true here, then there's no way Goku (U6) ~ Goku (Buu). I think that also goes against what Goku tells Goten about always training intensively in case a new threat shows up.

Also, I don't think Roshi cares about his rivalry. I feel as though that's something you're adding to the text.

It literally is about their rivalry. Once they have shown Vegeta do much better than the rest, you don't need any other comment.
It's also not Roshi talking, it's the author stating the obvious.

Not seeing it. The context is placed on their rivalry at the end of the movie. During the battle with Beerus, the context is establishing Vegeta as the strongest, hence why he outperforms the rest. The reason he is the strongest is because he surpassed Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On all the Kaioshin vs Piccolo stuff, I think people are really bending backwards by taking Beerus’ word for granted but not Piccolo’s. Regardless of why he’s leaving, Goku asks Piccolo if Kaioshin was strong and Piccolo says he was. Any guidebook that talks about that scene clarifies Kaioshin is indeed above Piccolo. Even the anime narrator says Piccolo was powerless!

I mean sure, Vegeta later says they overestimated Kaioshin, but that’s only for the Saiyans. Piccolo is completely irrelevant.

And for how strong Piccolo was post Rosat. Logically I think from 2nd form Cell to Super Vegeta is a good placement, he does nothing besides getting his ass kicked by the Cell Jrs. He only does better than a Goku who couldn’t even fight anymore and the humans. Nothing wrong with him being as strong as 16 though.

Gohan asserts that he can only be the strongest on Earth if Goku and Vegeta are off-world, which is before the end of the training in the Moro arc.

The inclusion of Kuririn’s line, and that one, which would require Gohan to surpass and then quietly be surpassed by Goku again between arcs, would seem extremely strange to me were that the intent.

Gohan gets “He might be even stronger than Goku if“ lines at the ToP, but no “Wow, he’s even stronger than Goku!” ones. Not even from Goku himself.

I’m much, much more inclined to interpret Vados’ excitement over Kefla situationally—she’s their best shot at that point–or scale Hit down (so he’s actually still a bit below Goku and maybe Kale) than I am to rewrite all the context around Gohan’s strength.

I can see: Goku/Vegeta/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu > Kefla/Gohan > Kale/Goku Black (This seems like the most readily apparent reading to me.)

I can even see: Goku/Vegeta/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu > Kefla/Gohan > Kale/Goku Black/Hit (If you assume Kale absolutely has to be stronger than Hit to get any positive reaction out of Champa.)

But I can’t really see: Kefla/Gohan > Kale > Goku/Vegeta/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu, or anything like that.

EDIT—I guess Gohan’s Moro arc line is post-SSBE and (temporary) UI, so there is that. But contextually it still feels weird in the ToP if he’s meant to have surpassed them by his fight with Kefla. Vegeta doesn’t react either. Basically everything in the moment tells us that Gohan is really impressive, but still not quite caught up to Goku. And the last word we hear from the top dogs on Kale is that they could still take her if they got serious, so the Goku Black-ish to Merged Zamasu-ish (assuming Caulifla isn’t any stronger than Zamasu) parallel fits pretty well.

The narrator says Goku and Vegeta came out of the Broly fight stronger than ever, so I don’t think there’s a problem here. If anything that line confirms Gohan was stronger than his father in the ToP since Gohan is stronger than 17, who Goku said was as strong as himself right after the ToP.

The whole Gohan vs Kefla fight happens off screen and gets brushed out pretty quickly, so it’s understandable we don’t see much besides a couple comments from the peanut gallery.

At the end of the day I just take Vados as a much more reliable source than Kuririn, but the comparison to Merged Zamasu is a interesting one. Kale could be above Goku Black since PSSJBs could beat him pretty easily, but Caulifla is probably below Future Zamasu since she’s only SSJ1 level.

I like that we’ve all just quietly forgotten Super ever had a TV version.

Funny, because it used to be the only version anyone cared about. And it wasn’t even that bad (at least not next to Toyotaro’s manga or GT) but people just… don’t care about it.

I don't know about them never losing their thirst for fighting since they clearly lost it by EoZ so it would've happened sometime after the Buu saga. It wasn't clear that Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan until the Majin boost so it would be worth noting if he surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan four years later since that's likely a bigger gap than between him and Gohan during the Cell Games.

But that’s only after they grow up. From what we see in the movie and the series they’re still battle hungry and jumping to fight at any opportunity.

The thing is if it was intended to be a lie then it would've likely been refuted within that same scene. Toriyama is a simple author that false or misinformed statements are acknowledged to be false soon after. His thought process probably wasn't "Beerus claimed Goku couldn't defeat Freeza in his current form. Rather than point out that he's wrong, the fans will know to use implications from other sagas to determine it's false on their own".

Same could be said about Vegeta’s confidence before the Budokai or Kaioshin being impressed by Goku and Vegeta’s base powers. And there’s stuff like Beerus lying about using 10% of his power against Vegeta never being taken back either. Toriyama probably didn’t bother because it’s an inconsequential detail. Whether Goku needs SSJ or not to beat Freeza, he’s still an ant to Beerus.

I'm really surprised you guys are still debating this when it's very clear cut since 2013.

Beerus says something power related and no one refutes it so it's fact. It's as simple as that.

Tagoma also said Bass Gohan was the strongest Z Fighter a couple years later, which was not only never refuted by also supported by Gohan saying Tagoma is as strong as he is right after he beats the shit out of Piccolo.

That's literally not true. There is zero evidence of that in the manga, except MAYBE the my Bulma scene but even then in Beerus is snadbagging and sighs out of boredom and Vegeta is then compared to Goku specifically.

Beerus doesn't know Majin Buu that's why to him there's no one else above Freeza he could beat, that's my whole point.

If we’re talking about the manga then Beerus never even says Base Goku can’t beat Freeza, so that really doesn’t go anywhere.

In the movie and anime Beerus and Vegeta really only care about Goku and Gohan and the others are pretty much an afterthought. The anime even has Vegeta call Goku the strongest in one of the first episodes.

Trunks definitely does seem impressed by Piccolo given that Trunks was sweating when Goku said Piccolo would be practically useless. He definitely can be stronger than Super Vegeta because there is a strong case to be made for it but I don't think that really says anything on how he compares to Kaioshin or the Saiyans for that matter.

He was sweating even before Goku arrived. Manga characters always have sweat drops in their heads for no reason, and the days following the Cell Games were definitely a pretty stressful week for anyone involved.

[Lionel]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

The gap in the Buu arc shouldn't be that large between the Namekian and the Super Saiyans. Significant but not chasmal. I'm not even sure I would numerically list Piccolo as any lower than 50% of SSJ Goku's then actually. Mind you I consider Piccolo to be an equal match for the Cell Jrs come the Buu arc so the interpretation is likely going to be different for each fan. Shin would fit somewhere in between. Maybe at around MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

[ZombieVito]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

The gap in the Buu arc shouldn't be that large between the Namekian and the Super Saiyans. Significant but not chasmal. I'm not even sure I would numerically list Piccolo as any lower than 50% of SSJ Goku's then actually. Mind you I consider Piccolo to be an equal match for the Cell Jrs come the Buu arc so the interpretation is likely going to be different for each fan. Shin would fit somewhere in between. Maybe at around MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

You are talking manga right? Because anime Frost solos 99.9% of Z.

[Skar]

But that’s only after they grow up. From what we see in the movie and the series they’re still battle hungry and jumping to fight at any opportunity.

BoG was the only movie that Goten and Trunks fought so that might've been the only time Toriyama involved them until Super Hero. We see they mess up the fusion and only have Fat Gotenks so far which is probably due to being rusty and haven't practiced fusion in years.

Same could be said about Vegeta’s confidence before the Budokai or Kaioshin being impressed by Goku and Vegeta’s base powers. And there’s stuff like Beerus lying about using 10% of his power against Vegeta never being taken back either. Toriyama probably didn’t bother because it’s an inconsequential detail. Whether Goku needs SSJ or not to beat Freeza, he’s still an ant to Beerus.

Well that doesn't really answer the question. You're arguing indirect implications vs a direct comparison between characters which usually holds more weight in fiction. It's hard to believe any author would make a direct comparison and intend for it be wrong or bother to include it in the first place.

[Lionel]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

The gap in the Buu arc shouldn't be that large between the Namekian and the Super Saiyans. Significant but not chasmal. I'm not even sure I would numerically list Piccolo as any lower than 50% of SSJ Goku's then actually. Mind you I consider Piccolo to be an equal match for the Cell Jrs come the Buu arc so the interpretation is likely going to be different for each fan. Shin would fit somewhere in between. Maybe at around MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

You are talking manga right? Because anime Frost solos 99.9% of Z.

Of course. If taken at face value Frost from the manga could possibly handle many of the Buu iterations, in my opinion. Super Buu and above are the only ones I'm sceptical about.

[ZombieVito]

Of course. If taken at face value Frost from the manga could possibly handle many of the Buu iterations, in my opinion. Super Buu and above are the only ones I'm sceptical about.

Well to be fair. Anime Frost could still be weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan in the U6 arc. He was completely helpless against SS Goku but was above the base Saiyans. Anywhere between SS3 Gotenks and Buutenks could work for him in that arc.

[picc]

Back to the Kaioshin: I actually have to cop to the distinct possibility that it is just a hierarchical thing with Piccolo having gone back one more time. I’d remembered the Japanese wrong. It’s “ちがすぎる... 次元は...” (“He’s on a whole different ... plane/dimension.”) Could refer to strength, but it’s (intentionally?) playfully ambiguous, and followed up nearly immediately in the manga by Piccolo asking about his divine station. Kaioshin also notes during the match that Piccolo seems to have begun to cotton onto his nature specifically because he’s a former god.

I vote: Definitely stronger than Freeza; not definitely stronger than Piccolo. That interpretation is also present among Japanese fans, so it’s not just a translation issue.

More than fair. I don't really claim to know exactly how strong Shin is. All we know for certain is that his floor is around Android saga Trunks, and his ceiling is below Buu saga SSJ Goku. An incredibly wide range of power. We all have our ideas and opinions, influenced by the same things interpreted in different ways, that form our guesstimates on his actual level.

No one's actually wrong, and no one's actually right. Which is the big thing with DB's consistent ambiguity and why threads like this get so long and heated.

I do agree about Piccolo never really closing the gap between himself and the Super Saiyans from the Cell Games though, at least until the Moro arc, due to exactly the logic Koitsukai lays out last page—a lot of it coming down to those Frost (who seems to slot in perfectly around Semi- to Perfect Cell level) and Trunks interactions.

I agree with this. I don't believe Piccolo got the kind of huge gains he would need to close the gap to even Super Vegeta, because those kinds of gains are typically reserved for fusions and transformations. Cell didn't train to get to his 2nd form. He absorbed a being as strong as Piccolo was. And he was already far stronger than Piccolo when he did it. Vegeta had to transform to reach USSJ and compete with Cell.

These are ridiculous power increases that I just don't believe Piccolo is going to get by punching air or fighting a clone for a year, even in the ROSAT, without the help of transformations or other plot devices. He had a long way to go to reach C16, let alone two people exponentially stronger than that.

Just for debates sake, my ascending scale of manga Piccolo's power looks like:

Android 17/Post-fusion Piccolo
Android 16/Post-absorption Cell
Post-ROSAT Piccolo
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Buu Saga Piccolo
U6 Tournament Piccolo
Cell Games Goku/Current Piccolo

[picc]

re: Shin/Piccolo's world tournament interactions

Piccolo never says Shin is too strong. He says to Goku "He is... a different order of being." Shortly after being weirded out by his presence, and shortly before asking Shin if he's the great Lord of World's. I don't get how his statement to Goku is interpreted as anything but being cryptic to not give away there is a divine being present, while giving the no-context-having Goku an explanation that sounds close enough to strength to rationalize his backing out.

I could write out a paragraph to explain why the dialogue leading up to it (including the strange dichotomy of referencing nobody being able to read Shin's power level, and then proposing that Piccolo backed out because he read Shin's power level ) doesn't imply anything about their relative powers, but I'm guessing it'd be about as convincing to others as the ones on this page are to me. ie., not at all. So this seems like an agree to disagree moment.

The good news is, Shin not actually having a battle relevant role in the saga means his power level is just a fun exercise, and doesn't actually have to affect anything. We know for a fact he's much stronger than Freeza, and much weaker than Buu saga SSJ Goku. AT just lets us dance on his strings with the rest.

[Goku9001]

I don't think we are going to agree here but Vegeta blatantly ponders that he'll find out how strong Kaioshin is through his battle with Piccolo, making it clear that not only is Kaioshin a deity but we are meant to regard him as a powerful individual so that the readers and the Saiyans actually take him seriously. I think a valid argument against this is to suggest that Kaioshin was grossly overestimated, so Goku misunderstood how powerful Kaioshin was based on what Piccolo said. And while Kaioshin feared Babidi, he also overestimated the abilities of Babidi's fighters other than Dabura. This overestimation led Kaioshin to act cautiously around Babidi whereas Piccolo just... sliced him in half.

I don't necessarily believe that since I believe Kaioshin >> Piccolo. However, I think denying the implications of Piccolo's statement and the context surrounding it isn't a convincing argument. Even though a literal translation may or may not lead us to that conclusion, that's exactly what context is for. Piccolo's "vague" statement could very well just be playing into Kaioshin's aura of mystery and Toriyama could have had fun playing around with that. But who knows since I can't know exactly what he was thinking.

[picc]

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior.

Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards to Piccolo specifically, was his literal divinity.

I also think Shin’s later reactions to the base saiyans power was AT communicating that Shin’s intimidating aura at the tourney was unfounded, and kind of a misdirect. This gets expounded on in vegeta and goku’s fight in SSJ2, when Vegeta mocks Shin’s power and perception of power in the universe.

We were supposed to be intrigued by and worried about Shin at the Tourney, and we were. AT did his job there. Later we find out it was unnecessary. I dont see why any of what happened is evidence he’s superior to Piccolo, when the point later seemed to be that quite literally everyone overestimated him, but I dont see making any headway further, so i’ll just stop.

Btw, I'm not claiming to know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Shin. I don’t. Its just my guess based off the interactions and words spoken after they left to find babidi, piccolo’s guesstimated strength in the saga, and the revelation that Shin’s power is a joke relative to what everyone thought based off his aura.

[Goku9001]

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior.

Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards to Piccolo specifically, was his literal divinity.

I also think Shin’s later reactions to the base saiyans power was AT communicating that Shin’s intimidating aura at the tourney was unfounded, and kind of a misdirect. This gets expounded on in vegeta and goku’s fight in SSJ2, when Vegeta mocks Shin’s power and perception of power in the universe.

We were supposed to be intrigued by and worried about Shin at the Tourney, and we were. AT did his job there. Later we find out it was unnecessary. I dont see why any of what happened is evidence he’s superior to Piccolo, when the point later seemed to be that quite literally everyone overestimated him, but I dont see making any headway further, so i’ll just stop.

Btw, I'm not claiming to know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Shin. I don’t. Its just my guess based off the interactions and words spoken after they left to find babidi, piccolo’s guesstimated strength in the saga, and the revelation that Shin’s power is a joke relative to what everyone thought based off his aura.

That's interesting. So your opinion is that Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin?

[Skar]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

It's hard to tell how strong the previous SSJ forms are. Blue is implied to 10x God in the manga and I don't think there's any indication that God in the later saga ever surpassed Blue in RoF (aside from Vegeta losing energy in the Champa arc). That could imply their previous forms were never more than ten times stronger since BoG which I think is consistent with DBZ with how previous forms didn't go up by much after new forms were achieved. Frost lost some energy against Goku but it's hard to believe Piccolo could last more last that long or fast enough to dodge against a+SSJ3 tier opponent. Piccolo asked Goku if he stood a chance against Frost and got a similar response to when he asked how he would fair against Perfect Cell. It's unlikely Piccolo would need to ask that against a form of Buu or someone stronger than that.

[picc]

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior.

Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards to Piccolo specifically, was his literal divinity.

I also think Shin’s later reactions to the base saiyans power was AT communicating that Shin’s intimidating aura at the tourney was unfounded, and kind of a misdirect. This gets expounded on in vegeta and goku’s fight in SSJ2, when Vegeta mocks Shin’s power and perception of power in the universe.

We were supposed to be intrigued by and worried about Shin at the Tourney, and we were. AT did his job there. Later we find out it was unnecessary. I dont see why any of what happened is evidence he’s superior to Piccolo, when the point later seemed to be that quite literally everyone overestimated him, but I dont see making any headway further, so i’ll just stop.

Btw, I'm not claiming to know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Shin. I don’t. Its just my guess based off the interactions and words spoken after they left to find babidi, piccolo’s guesstimated strength in the saga, and the revelation that Shin’s power is a joke relative to what everyone thought based off his aura.

That's interesting. So your opinion is that Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin?

Not quite. He must have been far stronger than the base saiyans, considering he dwarfs Freeza and they are weaker than Freeza, as stated in BoG.

I believe the unusual aura the saiyans felt and commented on at the world tournament was due to his divinity, and they simply mistook it as hidden battle power. Explaining their misplaced trepidation about his fighting prowess. Which was directly said by Vegeta later on when he mocked Shin's power level.

His reaction to the base saiyans power obviously doesn't mean he's weaker than them. But it is indicative that his power level is not a big deal in the buu saga meta, in general. And that he's weaker than the readers (and Shin himself) believed him to be, relative to how he was introduced at the Budokai. Which IMO was an intentional misdirect from AT to first build suspense, and then later illustrate how insanely powerful the z-senshi have become.

I can't say I know he's weaker than Piccolo, because not one of us knows for sure. But based on all of the above things, I lean toward him being closer to the floor of his possible PL range, which would be around Android Saga Trunks. That would allow him to defeat Namek Saga Freeza in a single blast, while not being SO ridiculously powerful that he can't be impressed by a being in the lower millions (base Vegeta).

Of course, the last part of that is head canon. But what isn't? We don't actually know anything for a fact other than > Namek Freeza and < Buu Saga SSJ Goku. I'm not trying to say any of you are definitively wrong if you think he's stronger than Piccolo. I just don't think the z fighters reaction to Shin at the Budokai is evidence of it. And it's not a position supported by the narrative AT clearly put effort into establishing of his real power level actually being totally insignificant.

[picc]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

The gap in the Buu arc shouldn't be that large between the Namekian and the Super Saiyans. Significant but not chasmal. I'm not even sure I would numerically list Piccolo as any lower than 50% of SSJ Goku's then actually. Mind you I consider Piccolo to be an equal match for the Cell Jrs come the Buu arc so the interpretation is likely going to be different for each fan. Shin would fit somewhere in between. Maybe at around MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

Having just read the Frost battles with Goku and Vegeta again, these things stand out:

- Vegeta effortlessly crushed him in 3 pages
- Goku dominated him, and to me appeared to be sandbagging so he could enjoy the fight

From my perception he was no contest whatsoever to the SSJs, and only lasted longer against Goku because Goku allowed him to. Vegeta OTOH had no desire to prolong it and disposed of him immediately. I guess if you think Vegeta's SSJ was stronger than Goku's, that could make sense. But I could easily see either of them beating Perfect Cell the same way Vegeta beat Frost, if indeed the Whis training and years in the ROSAT pumped their SSJ forms up by a lot. (which I agree with)

[Goku9001]

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior.

Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards to Piccolo specifically, was his literal divinity.

I also think Shin’s later reactions to the base saiyans power was AT communicating that Shin’s intimidating aura at the tourney was unfounded, and kind of a misdirect. This gets expounded on in vegeta and goku’s fight in SSJ2, when Vegeta mocks Shin’s power and perception of power in the universe.

We were supposed to be intrigued by and worried about Shin at the Tourney, and we were. AT did his job there. Later we find out it was unnecessary. I dont see why any of what happened is evidence he’s superior to Piccolo, when the point later seemed to be that quite literally everyone overestimated him, but I dont see making any headway further, so i’ll just stop.

Btw, I'm not claiming to know for a fact Piccolo is stronger than Shin. I don’t. Its just my guess based off the interactions and words spoken after they left to find babidi, piccolo’s guesstimated strength in the saga, and the revelation that Shin’s power is a joke relative to what everyone thought based off his aura.

That's interesting. So your opinion is that Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin?

Not quite. He must have been far stronger than the base saiyans, considering he dwarfs Freeza and they are weaker than Freeza, as stated in BoG.

I believe the unusual aura the saiyans felt and commented on at the world tournament was due to his divinity, and they simply mistook it as hidden battle power. Explaining their misplaced trepidation about his fighting prowess. Which was directly said by Vegeta later on when he mocked Shin's power level.

His reaction to the base saiyans power obviously doesn't mean he's weaker than them. But it is indicative that his power level is not a big deal in the buu saga meta, in general. And that he's weaker than the readers (and Shin himself) believed him to be, relative to how he was introduced at the Budokai. Which IMO was an intentional misdirect from AT to first build suspense, and then later illustrate how insanely powerful the z-senshi have become.

I can't say I know he's weaker than Piccolo, because not one of us knows for sure. But based on all of the above things, I lean toward him being closer to the floor of his possible PL range, which would be around Android Saga Trunks. That would allow him to defeat Namek Saga Freeza in a single blast, while not being SO ridiculously powerful that he can't be impressed by a being in the lower millions (base Vegeta).

Of course, the last part of that is head canon. But what isn't? We don't actually know anything for a fact other than > Namek Freeza and < Buu Saga SSJ Goku. I'm not trying to say any of you are definitively wrong if you think he's stronger than Piccolo. I just don't think the z fighters reaction to Shin at the Budokai is evidence of it. And it's not a position supported by the narrative AT clearly put effort into establishing of his real power level actually being totally insignificant.

Noted. I think what also helps your rationale is that Kaioshin's shock at Base Vegeta's strength could have been attributed to how powerful the Saiyans were in their Base forms, knowing full well that they can amplify it much further than Super Saiyan. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kaioshin cannot be leagues beyond the Base Saiyans. It could simply mean that his shock was because he never expected the Base Saiyans to be so powerful which in turn, would lead to the Super Saiyans to be much stronger than himself which is something he never expected.

[Lionel]

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

It's hard to tell how strong the previous SSJ forms are. Blue is implied to 10x God in the manga and I don't think there's any indication that God in the later saga ever surpassed Blue in RoF (aside from Vegeta losing energy in the Champa arc). That could imply their previous forms were never more than ten times stronger since BoG which I think is consistent with DBZ with how previous forms didn't go up by much after new forms were achieved. Frost lost some energy against Goku but it's hard to believe Piccolo could last more last that long or fast enough to dodge against a+SSJ3 tier opponent. Piccolo asked Goku if he stood a chance against Frost and got a similar response to when he asked how he would fair against Perfect Cell. It's unlikely Piccolo would need to ask that against a form of Buu or someone stronger than that.

What opponents have they encountered with a comparable strength level to past plateaus of theirs who we've seen fight more than once? Frost is an example though we don't know if he could have improved himself similar to what Freeza managed.

We know Beerus' planet is a great distance away from Earth. Whis stated that it would take 35 minutes to reach Earth from there with his warping ability. Somehow everyone powering up on Earth was able to emit a signature that could reach the planet for Goku to hone in on as he was trying to locate them. I suspect it would have be to at least similar to SSJ3 Goku from the Buu arc to create an effect like that.

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training regimen with Whis and collaboration with Vegeta in the ROSAT for three years, his Super Saiyan form was probably much higher in strength than the time he was seen mentally preparing himself to engage Kid Buu in a fight using just SSJ1 from the start of the BOG arc.

The gap in the Buu arc shouldn't be that large between the Namekian and the Super Saiyans. Significant but not chasmal. I'm not even sure I would numerically list Piccolo as any lower than 50% of SSJ Goku's then actually. Mind you I consider Piccolo to be an equal match for the Cell Jrs come the Buu arc so the interpretation is likely going to be different for each fan. Shin would fit somewhere in between. Maybe at around MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

Having just read the Frost battles with Goku and Vegeta again, these things stand out:

- Vegeta effortlessly crushed him in 3 pages
- Goku dominated him, and to me appeared to be sandbagging so he could enjoy the fight

From my perception he was no contest whatsoever to the SSJs, and only lasted longer against Goku because Goku allowed him to. Vegeta OTOH had no desire to prolong it and disposed of him immediately. I guess if you think Vegeta's SSJ was stronger than Goku's, that could make sense. But I could easily see either of them beating Perfect Cell the same way Vegeta beat Frost, if indeed the Whis training and years in the ROSAT pumped their SSJ forms up by a lot. (which I agree with)

If Goku hadn't increased his power for a second time in response to Frost, aura and everything, I might be inclined to agree. A clear superior is obvious but the discrepancy wasn't so pronounced that Frost couldn't weather attacks and keep Goku on his toes somewhat. By the time Frost was challenged by Vegeta he had already tired himself out a good amount fighting Piccolo.