Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ch. 15, pg. 34.1-2
Context: Goku and Trunks pause their sparring
Goku: “This is amazing, Trunks. You’re so much better than Gohan from back than.”
Trunks: “It’s been more than ten years since then. I’ve trained myself to death.”

[Skar]

The comparison also depends on the context in which it is being made. Kid Gohan was the simplest and most relevant reference to compare to. The only thing we know for certain is that Goku claims Trunks is much stronger than Kid Gohan in which Trunks interjects that it is no surprise given that he's been training intensively for 10 years. Therefore, nothing prevents Trunks from being many times stronger than Kid Gohan. That's really all I'm saying.

Well he could definitely be many times stronger than Gohan. What I'm saying is that the reference like that is for the audience. Trunks is likely aware he's already stronger than Gohan back then. It's the same when Vegeta said that about SSJ2 Goku and Beerus pointing out Goku was weaker than Freeza. Goku is aware of how strong he is compared to those characters. In the ToP, Freeza said Caulifa was stronger than the first SSJ he fought after she transformed implying she was weaker in base while they fought. If the U6 base Saiyans are comparable to U7 then that fits with Trunks not needing to be hundreds of times stronger than Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Don’t you think Trunks can be much better than Kid Gohan vs. Cell with less than twice his strength? If you can think that, then he doesn’t need to be stronger than Boo, at least not until he uses the full power of the form.

[Lionel]

Ch. 15, pg. 34.1-2
Context: Goku and Trunks pause their sparring
Goku: “This is amazing, Trunks. You’re so much better than Gohan from back than.”
Trunks: “It’s been more than ten years since then. I’ve trained myself to death.”

Compare that quote to what Vegeta and Piccolo's observations were of SSJ2 for the adults during the Buu arc.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4, P9.4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

Gohan from the Cell Games was still the gold standard for the Z-Warriors during the early part of the Buu arc. Here we see how Goku and Vegeta are only described as having surpassed Gohan but not to a considerable degree as Trunks in the Goku Black arc was stated to have accomplished.

In addition, you still have the mental image training with SSJ Goku in the BOG arc easily defeating Cell and earnestly charging Kid Buu with just the first form, not SSJ3. I hope that scene would be considered as well.

[Goku9001]

The comparison also depends on the context in which it is being made. Kid Gohan was the simplest and most relevant reference to compare to. The only thing we know for certain is that Goku claims Trunks is much stronger than Kid Gohan in which Trunks interjects that it is no surprise given that he's been training intensively for 10 years. Therefore, nothing prevents Trunks from being many times stronger than Kid Gohan. That's really all I'm saying.

Well he could definitely be many times stronger than Gohan. What I'm saying is that the reference like that is for the audience. Trunks is likely aware he's already stronger than Gohan back then. It's the same when Vegeta said that about SSJ2 Goku and Beerus pointing out Goku was weaker than Freeza. Goku is aware of how strong he is compared to those characters. In the ToP, Freeza said Caulifa was stronger than the first SSJ he fought after she transformed implying she was weaker in base while they fought. If the U6 base Saiyans are comparable to U7 then that fits with Trunks not needing to be hundreds of times stronger than Gohan.

I think it's clear that Base Cabba let alone Base Caulifa would be stronger than Frieza. Frieza is just reminiscing of his experience fighting SSJ Goku because it's relevant to SSJ Caulifa battling her, her being a Super Saiyan and all.

[Skar]

Don’t you think Trunks can be much better than Kid Gohan vs. Cell with less than twice his strength? If you can think that, then he doesn’t need to be stronger than Boo, at least not until he uses the full power of the form.

The Freeza saga showed characters could be less than twice as strong and able one-shot their opponent. Trunks being "much stronger" than Gohan could range from 30% stronger to almost anything. Shen said he was "much stronger" than Yamcha and the difference between them was maybe less than double. These are all standard ways of saying there's a notable difference between two characters but doesn't really give an exact number.

I think it's clear that Base Cabba let alone Base Caulifa would be stronger than Frieza. Frieza is just reminiscing of his experience fighting SSJ Goku because it's relevant to SSJ Caulifa battling her, her being a Super Saiyan and all.

Freeza only said she was stronger than the SSJ he fought after she lasted longer than he expected. He doesn't really need to comment on her power if he was only reminiscing. Does anything contradict her being weaker than Namek SSJ Goku in base in the manga?

[Goku9001]

I think it's clear that Base Cabba let alone Base Caulifa would be stronger than Frieza. Frieza is just reminiscing of his experience fighting SSJ Goku because it's relevant to SSJ Caulifa battling her, her being a Super Saiyan and all.

Freeza only said she was stronger than the SSJ he fought after she lasted longer than he expected. He doesn't really need to comment on her power if he was only reminiscing. Does anything contradict her being weaker than Namek SSJ Goku in base in the manga?

Frieza is referring to a moment in time where he battled a Super Saiyan and acknowledging that despite her being a Super Saiyan, she ended up to be much stronger than the Super Saiyan he battled before. It's not using Goku as a benchmark and that should be clear anyways since Frieza claims that SSJ Goku isn't nearly as powerful as SSJ Caulifa which suggests a tremendous gap. Not that needs to be stated. SSJ Cabba was already proven to be much stronger than Frieza when he battled Vegeta.

SSJ2 Kid Gohan was used as a mutual reference to the strongest power that both Trunks and Goku were aware of. SSJ Goku was mentioned since Caulifa was a Super Saiyan and thus, was compared to one of the only Super Saiyans Frieza has ever battled. I don't think we'll ever agree here, but my point is that these 2 examples don't have to serve as benchmarks for these characters. Nothing contradicts Trunks and Caulifa being 100x stronger than Gohan and Goku respectively, for instance.

[Goku9001]

Don’t you think Trunks can be much better than Kid Gohan vs. Cell with less than twice his strength? If you can think that, then he doesn’t need to be stronger than Boo, at least not until he uses the full power of the form.

Yeah you are definitely correct here. I think other pieces of evidence should be looked into while making our own conclusions. Claiming that Trunks is "so much better" is vague and really tells us nothing on how Trunks compares to Gohan other than there is at least a big gap between the two.

There is Trunks' Z Sword training for instance, which could have allowed him to rise to Gohan's power when Gohan trained with the Z Sword. There's also the implication of Goku Black sparing Trunks so that Trunks could grow stronger and allow Goku Black to grow stronger as a result. In addition to Trunks presumably receiving zenkais since it was a shock for Trunks to realize that Vegeta couldn't receive any.

[Mr Baggins]

Back to the topic of Gohan's default strength in Super Hero:

Spoiler:

I don't wanna say "I told ya so", but...

[Goku9001]

Back to the topic of Gohan's default strength in Super Hero:

Spoiler:

I don't wanna say "I told ya so", but...

Lol. That totally contradicts Gohan's character in both the anime and manga. I was banking on Super Saiyan being a lesser form Gohan would use during the fight similar to how Goku and Vegeta fight against Broly.

Also, wasn't he still training in the Moro Arc? Strange how it infers that he stopped training after the Tournament of Power.

[Goku9001]

I also want to touch up on a topic related to this. I'm aware that Gohan regards Goku and Vegeta as his superior in the Moro Arc but that came after the events of Broly where Goku and Vegeta were explicitly shown to be training. However, I wonder how large the gap is between Gohan and Goku during the Tournament of Power. It's clear that LSSJ Kale should be much stronger than CSSJB Goku and Golden Frieza given the stupefied expressions they had on their faces when LSSJ Kale powered up. In fact, Golden Frieza stated that he could beat LSSJ Kale if he took her seriously but it can be inferred that he retracted that statement after Kale's final power-up.

Once Kale fuses with Caulifa, despite SSJ Caulifa being tens of times weaker than LSSJ Kale at least, the Pride Troopers claim that Kefla was leagues beyond Kale. Kefla wasn't just much stronger than Kale, she was levels beyond Kale. That was reflected in Kefla's performance against them. She blatantly blitzes the troopers whereas the Pride Troopers could react to her moves before she begun slowing down. This falls in line with what Gowasu claimed in the Goku Black saga. Vegetto was especially strong as a result of fusing between two powerful Saiyans. All said and done, Gohan manages to tie with SSJ Kefla.

Because Kefla is leagues beyond Kale who was already stronger than Frieza and Goku, in order for Goku to reclaim his status as the strongest with Super Saiyan Blue, he would have had to have grown many times stronger from the Tournament of Power up until the Moro Arc to overtake Ultimate Gohan presumably.

[picc]

I also want to touch up on a topic related to this. I'm aware that Gohan regards Goku and Vegeta as his superior in the Moro Arc but that came after the events of Broly where Goku and Vegeta were explicitly shown to be training. However, I wonder how large the gap is between Gohan and Goku during the Tournament of Power. It's clear that LSSJ Kale should be much stronger than CSSJB Goku and Golden Frieza given the stupefied expressions they had on their faces when LSSJ Kale powered up. In fact, Golden Frieza stated that he could beat LSSJ Kale if he took her seriously but it can be inferred that he retracted that statement after Kale's final power-up.

Once Kale fuses with Caulifa, despite SSJ Caulifa being tens of times weaker than LSSJ Kale at least, the Pride Troopers claim that Kefla was leagues beyond Kale. Kefla wasn't just much stronger than Kale, she was levels beyond Kale. That was reflected in Kefla's performance against them. She blatantly blitzes the troopers whereas the Pride Troopers could react to her moves before she begun slowing down. This falls in line with what Gowasu claimed in the Goku Black saga. Vegetto was especially strong as a result of fusing between two powerful Saiyans. All said and done, Gohan manages to tie with SSJ Kefla.

Because Kefla is leagues beyond Kale who was already stronger than Frieza and Goku, in order for Goku to reclaim his status as the strongest with Super Saiyan Blue, he would have had to have grown many times stronger from the Tournament of Power up until the Moro Arc to overtake Ultimate Gohan presumably.

The pride troopers did claim her moves were leagues above Kale, but this was right before stating that Kefla combines "the sheer power of Kale with the battle sense of Caulifla". They were able to adapt and react to her before because her moves were predictable, rather than slow.

Due to the following things:

- Pride trooper specifically saying Kefla has Kale's strength, with no mention of the combined strength you'd expect to hear of
- Gohan evenly fighting Kefla
- Krillin commenting during said fight, "Makes you wonder if he [Gohan] could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training", thereby indicating Gohan (and by extension, Kefla and Kale) was still weaker than Goku's CSSJB

Logic would dictate that for whatever reason, the potara simply combined Kale's power and Caulifla's battle acumen, instead of multiplying their power as potara typically do.

[Goku9001]

The pride troopers did claim her moves were leagues above Kale, but this was right before stating that Kefla combines "the sheer power of Kale with the battle sense of Caulifla". They were able to adapt and react to her before because her moves were predictable, rather than slow.

Due to the following things:

- Pride trooper specifically saying Kefla has Kale's strength, with no mention of the combined strength you'd expect to hear of
- Gohan evenly fighting Kefla
- Krillin commenting during said fight, "Makes you wonder if he [Gohan] could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training", thereby indicating Gohan (and by extension, Kefla and Kale) was still weaker than Goku's CSSJB

Logic would dictate that for whatever reason, the potara simply combined Kale's power and Caulifla's battle acumen, instead of multiplying their power as potara typically do.

That interpretation makes the most sense. However, I still think there's enough evidence to suggest that Gohan was stronger than CSSJB Goku and Krillin's statement in context, refers to the idea that Gohan training consistently would mean he'd always have the leg up on Goku. Gohan has been stronger than Goku in the past yet his inconsistent training led to him being far weaker than Goku. Maintaining a consistent training regime by "quitting his day job" would allow him to training consistently and always be stronger than Goku given his potential.

[picc]

C'mon bro. You're better than that. You've proven it many times.

[Goku9001]

C'mon bro. You're better than that. You've proven it many times.

Believe me, I would be inclined to agree with Goku > Gohan if it weren't for the multiple visual cues and statements present. Goku initially enters the battle smiling because Kale was a respectably powerful opponent. His attitude immediately shifts once Kale powers up. He is visibly frustrated with his veins popping out until he's eventually overpowered. Frieza argues with Goku and states that he can handle Kale once he's serious. Frieza continues to argue or "wrestle" (for lack of a better word) with Goku until Kale performs one last massive power-up that floors Frieza and Goku. Their attention is directed at Kale with a stupefied expression on their faces. Goku is nervous because Kale's ki spiked up whereas Frieza likely retracted his statement since he's in complete shock and is utterly speechless. Both don't even try to engage her. They're nervously watching her and waits for Kale to make the first move.

I believe all of this places Kale as being stronger than Goku and Golden Frieza. From the statements you've given me, it definitely seems as though Kefla ~ Kale or at least not as much of a boost as one would believe. The only pieces of evidence I'm seeing in favor of Kefla > Kale is Cabba's claim of the potaras containing mysterious power (which could mean anything) as well as Kefla being impressed by her own power and claiming that this is the power of fusion. Though, that could definitely be Caulifa's side talking. I think it's safe to say that whatever power Kefla gained doesn't make her significantly stronger than Kale.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that’s a fair approach. Gohan does occasionally gets stronger than Goku when the situation demands it, but he is consistently behind him. The Super Hero promo that is circulating today just reinforces it. When peace takes place, he doesn’t train, but whenever he enters battle mode he does impressive stuff.

About Kale, it’s interesting that everyone that comments on being able to take her use her sloppy and predictable moves as a justification. So, when that weakness is gone, her power advantage might be a problem, right? I would be inclined to think Kefla and Gohan may have surpassed SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Hit/Golden Freeza, given all the implications favoring it.

[picc]

C'mon bro. You're better than that. You've proven it many times.

Believe me, I would be inclined to agree with Goku > Gohan if it weren't for the multiple visual cues and statements present. Goku initially enters the battle smiling because Kale was a respectably powerful opponent. His attitude immediately shifts once Kale powers up. He is visibly frustrated with his veins popping out until he's eventually overpowered. Frieza argues with Goku and states that he can handle Kale once he's serious. Frieza continues to argue or "wrestle" (for lack of a better word) with Goku until Kale performs one last massive power-up that floors Frieza and Goku. Their attention is directed at Kale with a stupefied expression on their faces. Goku is nervous because Kale's ki spiked up whereas Frieza likely retracted his statement since he's in complete shock and is utterly speechless. Both don't even try to engage her. They're nervously watching her and waits for Kale to make the first move.

I believe all of this places Kale as being stronger than Goku and Golden Frieza. From the statements you've given me, it definitely seems as though Kefla ~ Kale or at least not as much of a boost as one would believe. The only pieces of evidence I'm seeing in favor of Kefla > Kale is Cabba's claim of the potaras containing mysterious power (which could mean anything) as well as Kefla being impressed by her own power and claiming that this is the power of fusion. Though, that could definitely be Caulifa's side talking. I think it's safe to say that whatever power Kefla gained doesn't make her significantly stronger than Kale.

I mean, Vegeta also commented Kale was losing power by the end of her fight with the pride troopers. So by the time she fused with Kefla, she would have been pretty weakened compared to the time she engaged Goku and Freeza.

But I'm not arguing this further tbh. We have a direct statement from Krillin placing Gohan below Goku. If that isnt hierarchal evidence, nothing is. Not Beerus comparing Goku to Freeza, not Goku comparing Trunks to Gohan (maybe “so much better” was in reference to control of his ki and not pure power), nothing. It really makes a lot of this even more pointless if we get to pick and choose which direct comparative statements we’d like to respect or not.

[Skar]

Frieza is referring to a moment in time where he battled a Super Saiyan and acknowledging that despite her being a Super Saiyan, she ended up to be much stronger than the Super Saiyan he battled before. It's not using Goku as a benchmark and that should be clear anyways since Frieza claims that SSJ Goku isn't nearly as powerful as SSJ Caulifa which suggests a tremendous gap. Not that needs to be stated. SSJ Cabba was already proven to be much stronger than Frieza when he battled Vegeta.

SSJ2 Kid Gohan was used as a mutual reference to the strongest power that both Trunks and Goku were aware of. SSJ Goku was mentioned since Caulifa was a Super Saiyan and thus, was compared to one of the only Super Saiyans Frieza has ever battled. I don't think we'll ever agree here, but my point is that these 2 examples don't have to serve as benchmarks for these characters. Nothing contradicts Trunks and Caulifa being 100x stronger than Gohan and Goku respectively, for instance.

That's one way to interpret it but I still struggle to believe any author would intend for the fans to look at it that way. I'm asking if anything contradicts the most straightforward interpretation of these comparisons.
Does anything contradict Trunks being below Buu until his upgraded SSJ2 or Caulifa being below namek SSJ Goku before Freeza's comment?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Compare that quote to what Vegeta and Piccolo's observations were of SSJ2 for the adults during the Buu arc.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4, P9.4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

Gohan from the Cell Games was still the gold standard for the Z-Warriors during the early part of the Buu arc. Here we see how Goku and Vegeta are only described as having surpassed Gohan but not to a considerable degree as Trunks in the Goku Black arc was stated to have accomplished.

In addition, you still have the mental image training with SSJ Goku in the BOG arc easily defeating Cell and earnestly charging Kid Buu with just the first form, not SSJ3. I hope that scene would be considered as well.

I think at the very least normal SSJ2 Trunks is between the Boo Saga SSJ2s and Majin Boo, closer to the latter, just like Gohan probably was after training with the Z Sword.

People also keep forgetting RoF happened in the manga and how it makes Goku absurdly stronger than his Boo Saga self.

Back to the topic of Gohan's default strength in Super Hero:

Spoiler:

I don't wanna say "I told ya so", but...

Well, here we go again…

I also want to touch up on a topic related to this. I'm aware that Gohan regards Goku and Vegeta as his superior in the Moro Arc but that came after the events of Broly where Goku and Vegeta were explicitly shown to be training. However, I wonder how large the gap is between Gohan and Goku during the Tournament of Power. It's clear that LSSJ Kale should be much stronger than CSSJB Goku and Golden Frieza given the stupefied expressions they had on their faces when LSSJ Kale powered up. In fact, Golden Frieza stated that he could beat LSSJ Kale if he took her seriously but it can be inferred that he retracted that statement after Kale's final power-up.

Once Kale fuses with Caulifa, despite SSJ Caulifa being tens of times weaker than LSSJ Kale at least, the Pride Troopers claim that Kefla was leagues beyond Kale. Kefla wasn't just much stronger than Kale, she was levels beyond Kale. That was reflected in Kefla's performance against them. She blatantly blitzes the troopers whereas the Pride Troopers could react to her moves before she begun slowing down. This falls in line with what Gowasu claimed in the Goku Black saga. Vegetto was especially strong as a result of fusing between two powerful Saiyans. All said and done, Gohan manages to tie with SSJ Kefla.

Because Kefla is leagues beyond Kale who was already stronger than Frieza and Goku, in order for Goku to reclaim his status as the strongest with Super Saiyan Blue, he would have had to have grown many times stronger from the Tournament of Power up until the Moro Arc to overtake Ultimate Gohan presumably.

While I agree that Kefla is stronger than Goku, I’m not sure if that applies to Kale. After the initial scare, she’s not that big of a deal. Vegeta definitely doesn’t think much of her. She’s definitely stronger than Goku Black and should rival the SSJBs, but probably doesn’t go beyond them.

That's one way to interpret it but I still struggle to believe any author would intend for the fans to look at it that way. I'm asking if anything contradicts the most straightforward interpretation of these comparisons.
Does anything contradict Trunks being below Buu until his upgraded SSJ2 or Caulifa being below namek SSJ Goku before Freeza's comment?

Well, Base Goku fighting evenly with a much stronger Freeza in RoF is a thing, and Trunks and Caulifla are in Goku’s level.

Overall I don’t think that’s what Toyotaro or Toriyama had in mind though. They’re just vague callbacks to what happened before.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, Base Goku fighting evenly with a much stronger Freeza in RoF is a thing, and Trunks and Caulifla are in Goku’s level.

Overall I don’t think that’s what Toyotaro or Toriyama had in mind though. They’re just vague callbacks to what happened before.

I don’t see Caulifla tangling with Freeza without Super Saiyan, if their fight is any indication. And if Cabba is weaker than Caulifla, he is no match for Freeza either.