Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

Well, Base Goku fighting evenly with a much stronger Freeza in RoF is a thing, and Trunks and Caulifla are in Goku’s level.

Overall I don’t think that’s what Toyotaro or Toriyama had in mind though. They’re just vague callbacks to what happened before.

Goku didn't absorb SSJG in the manga. There's a Rof manga but that was for the film following BoG and not DBS. That's why Goku needed SSJ to defeat Frost and Vegeta needing SSJ against Cabba who should've both been far weaker than 4th form Freeza in RoF.

[Cipher]

Ch. 15, pg. 34.1-2
Context: Goku and Trunks pause their sparring
Goku: “This is amazing, Trunks. You’re so much better than Gohan from back than.”
Trunks: “It’s been more than ten years since then. I’ve trained myself to death.”

Goku's line about Trunks and Vegeta's line about Goku in the Boo arc are 1:1 in Japanese.

Vegeta, on Goku (Boo arc):
"Impressive. You're even more powerful than Gohan from back then!"
さすがだな。あのときの悟飯以上のパワーだ！

"Incredible, Trunks. You're even stronger than Gohan from back then."
すげえぞ　トランクス。あの時の悟飯以上だ。

Relevant pages below:

Spoiler:

There's no extra intensifier on Goku's line in Super. This makes me feel like we might warrant a "Strength Checker" dialogue thread for Super in the same way Herms graced us with for the original.

There's the line, so make of it what you will. For my own interpretation, I stand on the idea that the line is meant to do nothing but imply Trunks is in line with the Super Saiyan 2s of the original series, and by extension Goku (and by extension Frost) as well. Which I don't think should even really require that line to clarify, as I stand by the idea that both series are quite consistent in no significant strength gains happening where not explicitly stated. Goku never absorbs the God power in the manga, and training in early Super is all focused on the use of God and Blue, so Goku and Vegeta's base and lower-form powers stay more or less as is (minus Vegeta's unique SS2, by way of the Beerus and Black fights, as it's the only explanation for the latter, a bit of oddness overall). Certainly you can give them some leeway from their three years in the RoSaT. I think keeping Frost in that Cell range is quite safe, but as he must be above Semi-Perfect Cell from his shrugging off Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho, and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta deal with him more easily than they might have been expected to handle Cell, they have to be at least somewhat stronger. But not radically--not so radically as to alter perception of Frost or Piccolo.

Once again, I know fans like to assume these quiet, large leaps for characters just for continuing their basic training, but the one time it has ever deigned to actually comment on anything like that, it was in Battle of Gods to say it wasn't happening. When characters have gotten significantly stronger at any point, both DB and Super are explicit about it. Otherwise, I tend to assume nothing where nothing is given.

The pride troopers did claim her moves were leagues above Kale, but this was right before stating that Kefla combines "the sheer power of Kale with the battle sense of Caulifla". They were able to adapt and react to her before because her moves were predictable, rather than slow.

Due to the following things:

- Pride trooper specifically saying Kefla has Kale's strength, with no mention of the combined strength you'd expect to hear of
- Gohan evenly fighting Kefla
- Krillin commenting during said fight, "Makes you wonder if he [Gohan] could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training", thereby indicating Gohan (and by extension, Kefla and Kale) was still weaker than Goku's CSSJB

Logic would dictate that for whatever reason, the potara simply combined Kale's power and Caulifla's battle acumen, instead of multiplying their power as potara typically do.

All you need to make sense of this is to assume that Freeza is correct and Kale never really does quite hit the tier of the CSSB characters. Though obviously she's still a threat and would be a tough enough fight for any of them to reduce their chances of lasting to the end. Vegeta's knocked away by her surprise attack, but isn't exactly breaking a sweat after seeing her plow through the rest of the field.

I said this a few pages back, but Kefla can still wind up in a sub-Merged Zamasu level and allow Gohan to take her without having surpassed Goku, as Kuririn's dialogue implies (along with Gohan's own next arc). You can put Kefla above Goku Black and still wind up there, with Caulifla being below Zamasu. No matter how I go back to it, I just don't see any way the chapters don't practically scream that Goku is still above Gohan, however impressive the latter is.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, thanks to Cipher for the clarification on the matter.
I'd say, with numbers out of my ass:

CG SS2 Gohan: 7,000
Majin Vegeta/SS2 Goku: 8,500
DBS SS2 Goku: 9,500
DBS SS2 Trunks: 10,000

Should be noted that the power we've been talking about wasn't even Trunks's FP. No need to have his suppressed form worlds above the reference used, specially when the text does not support/imply it.

RE: Kale-Kefla/Goku-Gohan.

Kale: uncontrolled 500
Kefla: controlled 500 (maybe something similar to the SSB and CSSB thing)
Gohan: 500
FP Goku/Freeza: 750

I also take at face value Krilin's comment, besides if Goku were to be surpassed by Gohan, I feel it would've been explicitly stated, specially by Goku.

This brings me to Dyspo, where do you guys place him?

A battered SS Caulifla held him long enough to let Cabba save Kale, when Dyspo was beating his ass. Then Kefla proves to be way too much for him and Kahseral together, and they go crying to Jiren. And then he'll stalemate with 17 off-screen.

[Goku9001]

That's one way to interpret it but I still struggle to believe any author would intend for the fans to look at it that way. I'm asking if anything contradicts the most straightforward interpretation of these comparisons.
Does anything contradict Trunks being below Buu until his upgraded SSJ2 or Caulifa being below namek SSJ Goku before Freeza's comment?

And there are examples where Toriyama makes such comparisons despite the gap being gargantuan. Case in point is Ginyu.

I struggle to believe why SSJ Goku would somehow be a benchmark for SSJ Caulifa who forced Frieza to go golden but to each their own. I believe it's blatantly obvious why that statement was made.

[picc]

Ch. 15, pg. 34.1-2
Context: Goku and Trunks pause their sparring
Goku: “This is amazing, Trunks. You’re so much better than Gohan from back than.”
Trunks: “It’s been more than ten years since then. I’ve trained myself to death.”

Goku's line about Trunks and Vegeta's line about Goku in the Boo arc are 1:1 in Japanese.

Vegeta, on Goku (Boo arc):
"Impressive. You're even more powerful than Gohan from back then!"
さすがだな。あのときの悟飯以上のパワーだ！

"Incredible, Trunks. You're even stronger than Gohan from back then."
すげえぞ　トランクス。あの時の悟飯以上だ。

Relevant pages below:

Spoiler:

There's no extra intensifier on Goku's line in Super. This makes me feel like we might warrant a "Strength Checker" dialogue thread for Super in the same way Herms graced us with for the original.

There's the line, so make of it what you will. For my own interpretation, I stand on the idea that the line is meant to do nothing but imply Trunks is in line with the Super Saiyan 2s of the original series, and by extension Goku (and by extension Frost) as well. Which I don't think should even really require that line to clarify, as I stand by the idea that both series are quite consistent in no significant strength gains happening where not explicitly stated. Goku never absorbs the God power in the manga, and training in early Super is all focused on the use of God and Blue, so Goku and Vegeta's base and lower-form powers stay more or less as is (minus Vegeta's unique SS2, by way of the Beerus and Black fights, as it's the only explanation for the latter, a bit of oddness overall). Certainly you can give them some leeway from their three years in the RoSaT. I think keeping Frost in that Cell range is quite safe, but as he must be above Semi-Perfect Cell from his shrugging off Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho, and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta deal with him more easily than they might have been expected to handle Cell, they have to be at least somewhat stronger. But not radically--not so radically as to alter perception of Frost or Piccolo.

Once again, I know fans like to assume these quiet, large leaps for characters just for continuing their basic training, but the one time it has ever deigned to actually comment on anything like that, it was in Battle of Gods to say it wasn't happening. When characters have gotten significantly stronger at any point, both DB and Super are explicit about it. Otherwise, I tend to assume nothing where nothing is given.

First off, thanks for this. It does kind of suck that such small translation errors can result in such extended arguments. But OTOH, I suppose its our fault for being the weirdos that care enough about cartoon power levels to argue them for hours on the internet.

Saying that, this does clear much of the issue up and I'd agree with Koitsukai's estimated PL chart above regarding the Goku/Trunks/Gohan conundrum.

All you need to make sense of this is to assume that Freeza is correct and Kale never really does quite hit the tier of the CSSB characters. Though obviously she's still a threat and would be a tough enough fight for any of them to reduce their chances of lasting to the end. Vegeta's knocked away by her surprise attack, but isn't exactly breaking a sweat after seeing her plow through the rest of the field.

I said this a few pages back, but Kefla can still wind up in a sub-Merged Zamasu level and allow Gohan to take her without having surpassed Goku, as Kuririn's dialogue implies (along with Gohan's own next arc). You can put Kefla above Goku Black and still wind up there, with Caulifla being below Zamasu. No matter how I go back to it, I just don't see any way the chapters don't practically scream that Goku is still above Gohan, however impressive the latter is.

Yes, I'm taking both Freeza and Krillin's statements at face value.

[Goku9001]

You can assume so but I believe the immediate reactions from both Goku and Frieza suggest that Kale was stronger than them but would lose in a fight overall due to her lack of battle experience. You can take Krillin's statement at face-value and I'm not really surprised why you would because it's a valid interpretation to make. I'm just trying to reconcile with both of what was shown at that instance and what the series has conveyed in the past with Krillin's statement.

[Lionel]

Regardless of contextual synonymity in the statements, the fact of Goku requiring only Super Saiyan to challenge Kid Buu in his mental image exercise implies higher standards for the Super Saiyan forms relative to prior arcs from Z.

[picc]

This brings me to Dyspo, where do you guys place him?

A battered SS Caulifla held him long enough to let Cabba save Kale, when Dyspo was beating his ass. Then Kefla proves to be way too much for him and Kahseral together, and they go crying to Jiren. And then he'll stalemate with 17 off-screen.

Point of references for Dypso:

- Superior to SSJ Goku, evidenced by dominating their 1v1
- Batted aside by Blue Vegeta on his way to fight Toppo (the bigger challenge)
- Crushed SSJ Cabba almost instantly. However, Cabba was pretty beat up by then already.
- Held by SSJ Caulifla, but due to the element of surprise, most of the his time spent being restrained he was simply reacting to the surprise of the hold and then to Kale being knocked off the stage. To boot, Raditz was able to be held by Goku after both were weakened through battle. In AT's mind, a hold from behind seems to let you at least restrain stronger fighters if they are somewhat close
- Blitzed by Kefla, and says he and another pride trooper are outmatched even together before being beaten by her
- So far, > SSJ Goku, < Blue Vegeta, < Kefla/Gohan/Kale
- Unseen battle with 17, that lasted at least an entire chapter from the time they squared up to the time Dyspo left to save Toppo from falling off

Due to him being clearly weaker than Gohan, and having an extended, presumably even-ish battle with 17, I think we can safely take that battle at face value and place him about equal to C17. Yes, Caulifla held him for a while, but for the above reasons it isn't particularly damning IMO

Gohan/Kefla
17/Dyspo

[picc]

You can assume so but I believe the immediate reactions from both Goku and Frieza suggest that Kale was stronger than them but would lose in a fight overall due to her lack of battle experience. You can take Krillin's statement at face-value and I'm not really surprised why you would because it's a valid interpretation to make. I'm just trying to reconcile with both of what was shown at that instance and what the series has conveyed in the past with Krillin's statement.

Respectfully, its a closed matter as far as I'm concerned. I'm unwilling to debate direct, comparative statements with no refutations as it would make an already strenuous endeavor (debating PL's) entirely pointless.

[Hugo Boss]

There's no extra intensifier on Goku's line in Super. This makes me feel like we might warrant a "Strength Checker" dialogue thread for Super in the same way Herms graced us with for the original.

Let’s do that, please! I feel sometimes we are repeating the same arguments over and over, and having an easy source for decent translation would be very helpful and not generate so much fuss.

All you need to make sense of this is to assume that Freeza is correct and Kale never really does quite hit the tier of the CSSB characters. Though obviously she's still a threat and would be a tough enough fight for any of them to reduce their chances of lasting to the end. Vegeta's knocked away by her surprise attack, but isn't exactly breaking a sweat after seeing her plow through the rest of the field.

I said this a few pages back, but Kefla can still wind up in a sub-Merged Zamasu level and allow Gohan to take her without having surpassed Goku, as Kuririn's dialogue implies (along with Gohan's own next arc). You can put Kefla above Goku Black and still wind up there, with Caulifla being below Zamasu. No matter how I go back to it, I just don't see any way the chapters don't practically scream that Goku is still above Gohan, however impressive the latter is.

While I agree the implications against Kale being CSSB tier are strong, I think Krillin doesn’t quite tells us that Goku is stronger than Gohan either, right? He says that Gohan could be stronger, but what if he is Goku’s equal? After all, Kale’s problem wasn’t her lack of power, but her ki control that was a mess (merging with Caulifla fixed it). And Vados saw how Jiren dispatched Hit and had confidence on Kefla having unprecedented dominance. All implications took at face value would suggest Kefla and Gohan are as capable as Goku and Vegeta, no?

[Cipher]

Regardless of contextual synonymity in the statements, the fact of Goku requiring only Super Saiyan to challenge Kid Buu in his mental image exercise implies higher standards for the Super Saiyan forms relative to prior arcs from Z.

I might suggest that what form Goku turns into in an introductory image-training sequence isn’t indicative of ... anything?

Especially since it would require Goku to have gotten folds stronger just putzing about with his farming—he couldn’t even go to Kaio’s, per his dialogue. And remember where BoG lands on whether or not characters get leagues stronger just with basic training at this point. Even then, a Super Saiyan Goku who could take out Boo is probably a base Goku who could take out Freeza, no? (And that base Goku is subsequently implied to not exist.)

[Skar]

And there are examples where Toriyama makes such comparisons despite the gap being gargantuan. Case in point is Ginyu.

I struggle to believe why SSJ Goku would somehow be a benchmark for SSJ Caulifa who forced Frieza to go golden but to each their own. I believe it's blatantly obvious why that statement was made.

I think Ginyu might be the only example. The story already made it clear Goku was stronger than Ginyu before his final Zenkai so it wasn't confirming anything new to the audience and Freeza brought him up because he's the second strongest in the army.

In every other direct comparison I can think of, it's to give the audience an idea how strong the character is. If Toyotaro expected us to already know that Caulifa was above that level in base then there wouldn't be a point to only have Freeza say after she fights in SSJ. She only achieved SSJ the day before so it's impressive enough that she's already this powerful. It would make sense for fans who do believe these direct statements since Goku was still weaker than his initial SSJ despite all his years of special training.

[Lionel]

Regardless of contextual synonymity in the statements, the fact of Goku requiring only Super Saiyan to challenge Kid Buu in his mental image exercise implies higher standards for the Super Saiyan forms relative to prior arcs from Z.

I might suggest that what form Goku turns into in an introductory image-training sequence isn’t indicative of ... anything?

Especially since it would require Goku to have gotten folds stronger just putzing about with his farming—he couldn’t even go to Kaio’s, per his dialogue. And remember where BoG lands on whether or not characters get leagues stronger just with basic training at this point. Even then, a Super Saiyan Goku who could take out Boo is probably a base Goku who could take out Freeza, no? (And that base Goku is subsequently implied to not exist.)

Really? I thought it was expressly stated that Goku's reasons for the image sparring were that he was training in the event of another strong opponent like Buu appearing. It doesn't seem like a throwaway outline for major villains encountered up until that point.

I don't understand why conventional training is generally disregarded. It's not as qualitatively efficient as something like the ROSAT or working under the guidance of Whis but there are benefits to be had from the effort. Take the transition from the Freeza to 'Enter Trunks' portions of the manga. Vegeta and Piccolo only had the wilds of Earth's environment to train in far as we're aware. Despite these limitations Goku still felt compelled to put forth the idea that the ki he felt confronting Freeza may have belonged to one of them; suggesting that they could have made impressive strides in their training in his mind since Namek. On that point, Piccolo himself felt confident enough in his strength to challenge Vegeta to a fight despite being in awe of the Saiyan's past reflexes and acuity against Freeza's projectiles. What does that imply about his training?

I don't believe base Goku surpassed Freeza. Do I think he could defeat Freeza without Super Saiyan? Sure, provided he was using the Kaioken. The leap from the estimated power level of 3 million for base Goku during the Freeza battle to the 100% maximum of 120 million for the tyrant is a vast one. You could have base Goku jump all the way to an arbitrary estimate of 80 million by the time of the BOG arc and it would still fit with Beerus' assessment of Goku's incapacity for defeating Freeza (absent the Kaioken which Beerus didn't know of at the time).

[Goku9001]

And there are examples where Toriyama makes such comparisons despite the gap being gargantuan. Case in point is Ginyu.

I struggle to believe why SSJ Goku would somehow be a benchmark for SSJ Caulifa who forced Frieza to go golden but to each their own. I believe it's blatantly obvious why that statement was made.

I think Ginyu might be the only example. The story already made it clear Goku was stronger than Ginyu before his final Zenkai so it wasn't confirming anything new to the audience and Freeza brought him up because he's the second strongest in the army.

In every other direct comparison I can think of, it's to give the audience an idea how strong the character is. If Toyotaro expected us to already know that Caulifa was above that level in base then there wouldn't be a point to only have Freeza say after she fights in SSJ. She only achieved SSJ the day before so it's impressive enough that she's already this powerful. It would make sense for fans who do believe these direct statements since Goku was still weaker than his initial SSJ despite all his years of special training.

Right, and it's also not confirming anything new that SSJ Caulifa is much stronger than SSJ Namek Goku by a gargantuan margin. Mentioning SSJ Goku when battling Frieza at this point in time is a largely irrelevant comparison. The only reason the comparison was made in context is because Caulifa asks Frieza if he were impressed by her Super Saiyan transformation and then retracts it by claiming "Oh, but the guys in your universe can use this too. But don't lump me in with them." Frieza responds to this by acknowledging that this is true, but she is much stronger than the Super Saiyans that she has battled. In Frieza's words, "Interesting... Yes you may indeed by different from the other Saiyans. The first Super Saiyan I ever fought wasn't nearly this strong." In short, Frieza draws this comparison because of Caulifa's Super Saiyan form. Caulifa going Super Saiyan was the main reason Caulifa prodded for praise from Frieza. She wanted to assert that she was much stronger than the Super Saiyans in U6 and Frieza agrees somewhat, hence his comparison.

Another comparison I can think of is Gohan vs. Raditz. Raditz already acknowledges that Gohan at a battle power of ~710 was stronger than Goku and then asserts it again once his battle power rises above 1300. In fact, Gohan's battle power can be argued to be beyond Raditz' even though no such comparison is made. Regardless, I think Toyotaro isn't even comparing Base Caulifa to anyone since the context of Frieza's comparison was made once Caulifa went Super Saiyan, after Caulifa wanted a response from Frieza. If we take this benchmark literally, then SSJ Caulifa isn't even stronger than SSJ Trunks on his debut which is objectively wrong.

[Goku9001]

If we're going to acknowledge the movie's comparison between Base Goku and Frieza despite Toriyama not including in his footnotes (presumably because it's absent in both the anime and manga), then I think it's fair to include the implications made in the movie which suggests that Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That means that Goku did in fact, grow significantly stronger after the Buu Saga which coincides with Goku's image training against previous villains in addition to Goten implying that Goku was the strongest in the world (but that's a bit shaky admittedly).

[Cipher]

Let’s do that, please! I feel sometimes we are repeating the same arguments over and over, and having an easy source for decent translation would be very helpful and not generate so much fuss.

On it and through Chapter 2. While I have my personal readings, like Herms, I'm simply interested in getting a consistent translation across all the dialogue with an eye on strength commentary. Borrowing his format, and adding contextual notes here or there where something reads like a callback to DB or differs from equivalent dialogue in a film (really only relevant for BoG). A more complete version might also add anime line comparisons, but that's simply beyond me to tackle, especially for things that would just be bits of trivia taking the manga unto itself.

While I agree the implications against Kale being CSSB tier are strong, I think Krillin doesn’t quite tells us that Goku is stronger than Gohan either, right? He says that Gohan could be stronger, but what if he is Goku’s equal? After all, Kale’s problem wasn’t her lack of power, but her ki control that was a mess (merging with Caulifla fixed it). And Vados saw how Jiren dispatched Hit and had confidence on Kefla having unprecedented dominance. All implications took at face value would suggest Kefla and Gohan are as capable as Goku and Vegeta, no?

I have my own thoughts about Kefla based on Vados' lines (it really has always read to me as if it's more a general statement on how suited to fighting Kefla is having both Caulifla's technique and Kale's power, rather than a comparative assessment against everyone else there), but maybe they're best saved for post Strength Checker translation.

Re: Freeza and Caulifla: Even being as strong as the Cell Games Super Saiyans would make her significantly stronger than the Goku he fought on Namek. Though I also have no trouble believing she could be above even that, as she's supposedly prodigal even among U6 Saiyans. I have trouble she'd drastically break SS2 ground though, even compared to the original run. Again, keeping everything not too far above Boo arc levels except where made clear. Freeza is extremely careful about preserving energy throughout the ToP, and playing the survival game, so not having a longer spar with her when he could simply break out Golden (which he seems to have mastered) would make sense.

[Mr Baggins]

I thought it was expressly stated that Goku's reasons for the image sparring were that he was training in the event of another strong opponent like Buu appearing.

Yes, but two things of note: Goku technically doesn't actually get to spar with "Boo" before the session is cut short, and like you said, it's just image sparring.

If he did, who's to say that he wouldn't have escalated into higher forms? And even if Goku remained in Super Saiyan, there's no guarantee that "Boo" fully represented the genuine article. I don't find much reason to believe Goku and Vegeta ever made significant leaps in their pre-God forms until the Moro arc, mainly because the manga doesn't seem interested in indulging that sort of growth until then.

[Goku9001]

You can assume so but I believe the immediate reactions from both Goku and Frieza suggest that Kale was stronger than them but would lose in a fight overall due to her lack of battle experience. You can take Krillin's statement at face-value and I'm not really surprised why you would because it's a valid interpretation to make. I'm just trying to reconcile with both of what was shown at that instance and what the series has conveyed in the past with Krillin's statement.

Respectfully, its a closed matter as far as I'm concerned. I'm unwilling to debate direct, comparative statements with no refutations as it would make an already strenuous endeavor (debating PL's) entirely pointless.

I think Hugo Boss said it best. No one in the audience seemed to understand how impressive Gohan was. Even Goku remarks, "Boy... I didn't realize that Gohan was this good." or something like that. This leaves room for the others, including Krillin, to be uncertain as to whether or not Gohan is stronger than Goku but confident enough to assume that Gohan would certainly surpass Goku with consistent training. Regardless, I'm just stating that my interpretation that includes the evidence we are given. Goku's and Frieza's reactions are telling on how Kale's sheer power compares to their own on top of Vados implying that she was the most dominant figure on the field. These visual cues are explicitly presented to the reader multiple times that it simply can't be ignored. You're simply discounting the evidence in favor of one statement that could be interpreted in another way.

[Skar]

Another comparison I can think of is Gohan vs. Raditz. Raditz already acknowledges that Gohan at a battle power of ~710 was stronger than Goku and then asserts it again once his battle power rises above 1300. In fact, Gohan's battle power can be argued to be beyond Raditz' even though no such comparison is made. Regardless, I think Toyotaro isn't even comparing Base Caulifa to anyone since the context of Frieza's comparison was made once Caulifa went Super Saiyan, after Caulifa wanted a response from Frieza. If we take this benchmark literally, then SSJ Caulifa isn't even stronger than SSJ Trunks on his debut which is objectively wrong.

Gohan was a few times stronger than Goku so I'm not sure if there's a direct comparison of an astronomical gap that you seem to arguing exists here. Her SSJ could be equal to FPSSJ Goku which is vastly stronger than his initial SSJ and impressive she reached that level without all their special training. I asked before but what evidence is there that base Caulifa is above Namek SSJ Goku in the manga. I feel there should be some evidence of that first before you would need to argue around Freeza's line this much.

[Goku9001]

Gohan was a few times stronger than Goku so I'm not sure if there's a direct comparison of an astronomical gap that you seem to arguing exists here. Her SSJ could be equal to FPSSJ Goku which is vastly stronger than his initial SSJ and impressive she reached that level without all their special training. I asked before but what evidence is there that base Caulifa is above Namek SSJ Goku in the manga. I feel there should be some evidence of that first before you would need to argue around Freeza's line this much.

You missed the point big time. Reread what I said. Gohan was only used as a benchmark for Goku despite there being enough proof that Gohan could be superior to Raditz as well. I wasn't making a comparison in the gap between them.

I don't think you even understand. I'm contesting the idea that SSJ Goku serves as any sort of benchmark to Caulifa at all. Whether Base Caulifa is stronger than SSJ Goku is irrelevant. Base Caulifa can easily be much stronger than SSJ Goku while still warranting Frieza's acknowledgement given the context of their discussion. You don't need to have any understanding of powerscaling to understand why that conversation was even initiated in the first place.