Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

You missed the point big time. Reread what I said. Gohan was only used as a benchmark for Goku despite there being enough proof that Gohan could be superior to Raditz as well. I wasn't making a comparison in the gap between them.

I don't think you even understand. I'm contesting the idea that SSJ Goku serves as any sort of benchmark to Caulifa at all. Whether Base Caulifa is stronger than SSJ Goku is irrelevant. Base Caulifa can easily be much stronger than SSJ Goku while still warranting Frieza's acknowledgement given the context of their discussion. You don't need to have any understanding of powerscaling to understand why that conversation was even initiated in the first place.

I think you're still missing my point. If you want to deny that this implies anything about her base, that's fine but I'm still asking if there's any evidence that would require that interpretation at all. You don't have to understand or care about power scaling to consider how the author expects most of the audience to read this. Freeza says she's stronger than SSJ Goku after she lasted longer than he expected. I have no idea how strong she is in base but the story only went out of its way to compare her SSJ to another SSJ which is the same for every direct statement involving a SSJ form. Arguing her base might be stronger than SSJ Goku is like arguing SSJ Future Trunks might stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. The story technically doesn't confirm that to be false but we go by what level they were when the author decided to have another character make that reference.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a big point is that Freeza himself is an anomaly in the manga.

In the anime, it's very clear that he was a big powerhouse and that Goku and Vegeta match him in the same forms as per Toriyama's own movies which he seems to factor in more than the anime when he was writing the drafts for the Broly and Super Hero movies.

How strong is Freeza compared to our main cast, and what exactly happened in their version of RoF? If Goku isn't all that far from pre-BoG in the manga like some people say, then what the heck was his fight with Freeza like before they went god-level? If it didn't go down like the movie/anime at all, then that's a drastically different version of RoF that we really need to be filled in on.

[Goku9001]

You missed the point big time. Reread what I said. Gohan was only used as a benchmark for Goku despite there being enough proof that Gohan could be superior to Raditz as well. I wasn't making a comparison in the gap between them.

I don't think you even understand. I'm contesting the idea that SSJ Goku serves as any sort of benchmark to Caulifa at all. Whether Base Caulifa is stronger than SSJ Goku is irrelevant. Base Caulifa can easily be much stronger than SSJ Goku while still warranting Frieza's acknowledgement given the context of their discussion. You don't need to have any understanding of powerscaling to understand why that conversation was even initiated in the first place.

I think you're still missing my point. If you want to deny that this implies anything about her base, that's fine but I'm still asking if there's any evidence that would require that interpretation at all. You don't have to understand or care about power scaling to consider how the author expects most of the audience to read this. Freeza says she's stronger than SSJ Goku after she lasted longer than he expected. I have no idea how strong she is in base but the story only went out of its way to compare her SSJ to another SSJ which is the same for every direct statement involving a SSJ form. Arguing her base might be stronger than SSJ Goku is like arguing SSJ Future Trunks might stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. The story technically doesn't confirm that to be false but we go by what level they were when the author decided to have another character make that reference.

I'm going to agree to disagree here. I've already presented you the context. The reason for the comparison is clear. I don't need to provide any evidence of Base Caulifa > Frieza since the comparison itself doesn't disprove what my position is to begin with. I'd be arguing against a brick wall. No need to discuss this any further because we see this very differently.

[Skar]

I'm going to agree to disagree here. I've already presented you the context. The reason for the comparison is clear. I don't need to provide any evidence of Base Caulifa > Frieza since the comparison itself doesn't disprove what my position is to begin with. I'd be arguing against a brick wall. No need to discuss this any further because we see this very differently.

We can agree to disagree but I think we were discussing different points. I'm not arguing your interpretation is wrong since it hasn't been disproven. Someone could interpret it your way and reach that same conclusion since they're not mutually exclusive. I'm asking if someone had the interpretation that she only surpassed Namek SSJ Goku when that comment was made then would anything contradict her being weaker in base?

[Lionel]

I thought it was expressly stated that Goku's reasons for the image sparring were that he was training in the event of another strong opponent like Buu appearing.

Yes, but two things of note: Goku technically doesn't actually get to spar with "Boo" before the session is cut short, and like you said, it's just image sparring.

If he did, who's to say that he wouldn't have escalated into higher forms? And even if Goku remained in Super Saiyan, there's no guarantee that "Boo" fully represented the genuine article. I don't find much reason to believe Goku and Vegeta ever made significant leaps in their pre-God forms until the Moro arc, mainly because the manga doesn't seem interested in indulging that sort of growth until then.

I don't think sandbagging enemies is very productive for Goku's training. If he really hadn't improved since the Buu arc then he would have been more easily picked apart than SSJ2 Vegeta was when he confronted Kid Buu before he can transform. Let's not forget that he easily defeated Cell in just a few hits, though.

[Mr Baggins]

If he really hadn't improved since the Buu arc then he would have been more easily picked apart than SSJ2 Vegeta was when he confronted Kid Buu before he can transform.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta decimated Pure Boo's legs in one hit, and still managed to survive his onslaught for over a minute. A few chapters later, base Vegeta lasted long enough for Satan to finish his speech and Goku to complete the Genki Dama.

Sandbagging or not, image training is designed to simulate the fighting styles of imagined opponents without incurring the risks of actually fighting them. It's not some super serious battle that necessitates Goku going Super Saiyan 3 or whatever in the middle of a field he's cropping with Goten.

BoG arc Goku has probably gotten stronger, but not by massive leaps and bounds. For most of Super, the pre-God forms tend to be used as measuring sticks to gauge how other characters (like Trunks) have improved since the original run.

[Koitsukai]

We'll never agree on this, but after all the debates, here's my list of how strong I think Goku and Vegeta were in each arc. As conservative as I can be.

BoG: Below Freeza, as stated (no, it wasn't a commentary about their hairdue). Barely stronger, considering Goku wasn't allowed to train, and was basically a bored farmer. He can be stronger than the rest without improving, though, 4 years have passed, the others can become weaker. Gohan will become much, much weaker in RoF, like a year later, so the trend implies the weakening should've started before BoG if he is about to lose so much power.
Geets probably the same as in the Buu arc, unlocking a Super SS2 form. Yeah, Super Super Saiyan 2.
RE: about the image training, that probably was just Goku playing around. We've all played around to hype ourselves up, with whatever sport we play, who hasn't tried to score a winner like Messi or Ronaldo in their heads?

RoF: a mess, let's skip it.

U6 arc: After BoG, RoF and training with Whis, and even though they have trained to unlock new forms, the sidegains should place them above Namek Freeza.
Frost fights Piccolo -in every version of RoF he is below the weakest adult Gohan- and needs to resort to trickery. SS Goku beats Frost easily, who might be on Cell's level. I'd say SS Goku is strong enough to fight on even grounds with Cell's FP.
Vegeta's base is equal to Cabba's, who happens to be below Caulifla, so her base is above Vegeta's. She might be as strong as one of the future androids, in base.

FT arc: Goku's SS2 is somewhat above his Buu arc form. Vegeta's should defeat Kid Buu, maybe Super Buu, too. Their bases, probably around post Namek SS, if their SS2 hasn't become much greater.

Recruitment and ToP: Don't remember any big gains or feats, actually Goku gets hit by a bullet and admits he is not in the greatest shape, and while I doubt a SS would be hurt by a bullet, it seems to be to show Goku's not been training/improving lately. They probably can fight FP Perfect Cell without SS2. This further implies Shin isn't that strong, having him around the androids works for me, I'll give Goku a boost in all forms after mastering SSB, being a big strain on the body and all, placing him on the android level of power.

Moro arc: Here are the big gains. Yadrat and Merus' training probably put their base forms on Perfect Cell's level. Or at least post-ROSAT SS level.

Granola arc: Gains keep improving, Goku's UI in base puts him on SS tier, which would be like 50x stronger than Super Vegeta from the Cell arc.

[Lionel]

If he really hadn't improved since the Buu arc then he would have been more easily picked apart than SSJ2 Vegeta was when he confronted Kid Buu before he can transform.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta decimated Pure Boo's legs in one hit, and still managed to survive his onslaught for over a minute. A few chapters later, base Vegeta lasted long enough for Satan to finish his speech and Goku to complete the Genki Dama.

Sandbagging or not, image training is designed to simulate the fighting styles of imagined opponents without incurring the risks of actually fighting them. It's not some super serious battle that necessitates Goku going Super Saiyan 3 or whatever in the middle of a field he's cropping with Goten.

BoG arc Goku has probably gotten stronger, but not by massive leaps and bounds. For most of Super, the pre-God forms tend to be used as measuring sticks to gauge how other characters (like Trunks) have improved since the original run.

Buu's body is notorious for being easily malleable. We see automatic gunfire perforating through his body some chapters back when Super Buu was first born. At that point on Kaioshin's planet Kid Buu was simply messing around with Vegeta.

Goku's intended rationale that he's training in preparation for an opponent like Buu doesn't imply that he's simply gauging fighting styles or what have you. Besides that it would be repetitive for him to simply work out in a form that he had already acclimated himself to back in the Cell arc.

[Skar]

Goku's intended rationale that he's training in preparation for an opponent like Buu doesn't imply that he's simply gauging fighting styles or what have you. Besides that it would be repetitive for him to simply work out in a form that he had already acclimated himself to back in the Cell arc.

I thought the image training was all he could do because it was implied he barely has done any training while working. SSJ Goku was still weaker than SSJ2 Gohan in Buu saga so I don't think four years of occasional image training going to give him better results than the seven years in Other World.

[Lionel]

Goku's intended rationale that he's training in preparation for an opponent like Buu doesn't imply that he's simply gauging fighting styles or what have you. Besides that it would be repetitive for him to simply work out in a form that he had already acclimated himself to back in the Cell arc.

I thought the image training was all he could do because it was implied he barely has done any training while working. SSJ Goku was still weaker than SSJ2 Gohan in Buu saga so I don't think four years of occasional image training going to give him better results than the seven years in Other World.

We know he has Goten performing at least some of the ploughing with the tractor as he eats and trains. Goku could be spending most of the rest of his days mentally training for all we know.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku's intended rationale that he's training in preparation for an opponent like Buu doesn't imply that he's simply gauging fighting styles or what have you. Besides that it would be repetitive for him to simply work out in a form that he had already acclimated himself to back in the Cell arc.

Exactly: Goku's intended rationale is that he's training to be able to face opponents like Boo at all. That's expressly telling you that he couldn't just easily mop the floor with Pure Boo at the time.

I'm still not sure why you think busting out a non-acclimated form like Super Saiyan 3 is something Goku would do right in the middle of a small field he's tending to with his son. He's not fighting for his life or throwing around big ki blasts; it's not that serious.

[Lionel]

Goku's intended rationale that he's training in preparation for an opponent like Buu doesn't imply that he's simply gauging fighting styles or what have you. Besides that it would be repetitive for him to simply work out in a form that he had already acclimated himself to back in the Cell arc.

Exactly: Goku's intended rationale is that he's training to be able to face opponents like Boo at all. That's expressly telling you that he couldn't just easily mop the floor with Pure Boo at the time.

I'm still not sure why you think busting out a non-acclimated form like Super Saiyan 3 is something Goku would do right in the middle of a small field he's tending to with his son. He's not fighting for his life or throwing around big ki blasts; it's not that serious.

There weren't any indications that Goku was restraining himself in his Super Saiyan 1 form. If anything his aura empowered charge at Kid Buu suggests that he was raring for a serious battle there. Some arbitrary projected limiter on the opponents defeats the purpose of Goku training in preparation for adversaries of that calibre to begin with.

Edit: Granted, the trademark cues of Freeza's 100% strength were missing. Although the tyrant at that stage in the timeline is such a nonfactor that 70% or 100% of his strength is immaterial to what Goku is pushing himself to achieve.

[Mr Baggins]

There weren't any indications that Goku was restraining himself in his Super Saiyan 1 form.

There are no indications (from this scene) that Goku's Super Saiyan forms were in a different league from the Boo arc, which is the point I'm making here.

1. Goku's literally just sparring.
2. He's in the middle of landscaping with Goten.
3. He didn't even get to fight the fake Boo.
4. Vegeta lasted for a while against Boo in SS2 and in base, so there's no reason Goku can't start in SS (which he tends to do a lot anyway).
5. He himself says he's training even just to face opponents like Boo in the first place.

I just don't know how you'd get "BoG arc Goku must now be waaaay stronger than before" from these five factors, not to mention the number of indications in the manga that would suggest the exact opposite. There's very little reason to think Goku and Vegeta would achieve big gains in base until Moro/Granolah.

[Skar]

We know he has Goten performing at least some of the ploughing with the tractor as he eats and trains. Goku could be spending most of the rest of his days mentally training for all we know.

Well Goten almost crashed so I don't know how often he took over the work. If the image training was meant to show how much he improved, he still needed SSJ against Freeza so maybe his full power wasn't that much higher than the Buu saga. Like Mr. Baggins said, he's still training in case an opponent like Buu appears implying he hasn't surpassed Buu yet.

[Lionel]

There weren't any indications that Goku was restraining himself in his Super Saiyan 1 form.

There are no indications (from this scene) that Goku's Super Saiyan forms were in a different league from the Boo arc, which is the point I'm making here.

1. Goku's literally just sparring.
2. He's in the middle of landscaping with Goten.
3. He didn't even get to fight the fake Boo.
4. Vegeta lasted for a while against Boo in SS2 and in base, so there's no reason Goku can't start in SS (which he tends to do a lot anyway).
5. He himself says he's training even just to face opponents like Boo in the first place.

I just don't know how you'd get "BoG arc Goku must now be waaaay stronger than before" from these five factors, not to mention the number of indications in the manga that would suggest the exact opposite. There's very little reason to think Goku and Vegeta would achieve big gains in base until Moro/Granolah.

Vegeta was being picked apart by a carefree lunatic who decided to try and choke him to death. The initial strategy involved him maintaining distance and keeping Buu pinned with ki projectiles but that failed to work.

As to Goku, he was charging headlong into a direct battle with Kid Buu. Destructiveness and expanse of the battle zone apparently weren't as big of concerns in his mind. In addition, it's true this example involved Freeza but we hear how he was able to make considerable progress just by simulating engagements with the Z-Warriors, namely Goku I imagine. The notion of such methods yielding benefits exists.

We know he has Goten performing at least some of the ploughing with the tractor as he eats and trains. Goku could be spending most of the rest of his days mentally training for all we know.

Well Goten almost crashed so I don't know how often he took over the work. If the image training was meant to show how much he improved, he still needed SSJ against Freeza so maybe his full power wasn't that much higher than the Buu saga. Like Mr. Baggins said, he's still training in case an opponent like Buu appears implying he hasn't surpassed Buu yet.

Goten seemed preoccupied with following Goku's progress. As mentioned before, base Goku could have an arbitrary power level of 80 million during BOG and it would still fit with Beerus' assessment of the Saiyan's need for Super Saiyan to beat Freeza.

[Skar]

Goten seemed preoccupied with following Goku's progress. As mentioned before, base Goku could have an arbitrary power level of 80 million during BOG and it would still fit with Beerus' assessment of the Saiyan's need for Super Saiyan to beat Freeza.

Base Goku could be that strong in BoG but how strong do you think he was in the Buu saga? Do you think he could defeat Kid Buu in SSJ or still needs SSJ3 in BoG?

[Lionel]

Goten seemed preoccupied with following Goku's progress. As mentioned before, base Goku could have an arbitrary power level of 80 million during BOG and it would still fit with Beerus' assessment of the Saiyan's need for Super Saiyan to beat Freeza.

Base Goku could be that strong in BoG but how strong do you think he was in the Buu saga? Do you think he could defeat Kid Buu in SSJ or still needs SSJ3 in BoG?

Using that random guesstimate? Probably around 10 million if you choose to use the SEG multipliers. We don't know for certain if SSJ Goku in that scene would have been able to defeat Kid Buu; only that he seemed willing to engage the Majin with just SSJ. At a minimum I believe he could have fought well against Kid Buu with SSJ though he may not have won without transforming further.

[Koitsukai]

Even if we take at face value the image training panels, they go out the window once the story kicks in.
So he either becomes weaker after training with Whis, becoming "normal" again and not being able to best SS2 Trunks even though his SS oneshots Cell, putting also Frost at the level of Kid Buu, and Piccolo a little below that with no merit whatsoever, or the scene was retconned, because even if we do take it as being THE training regime, the gains seem to not have been carried over to the "real" world.

Or, and this is what I believe, he was just daydreaming/playing around because he is bored as fuck and not allowed to actually train.
Probably that's what he's aiming for, what he'd like to be able to do: oneshot Cell, Freeza and fight the strongest foe ever with just SS*. We do much better in our heads than in the real world.

*By now, he probably can do all those things. In fact, in EoZ, he is fighting Uub/Buu in base.

[Mr Baggins]

As to Goku, he was charging headlong into a direct battle with Kid Buu.

That doesn't matter, though. Goku doesn't have to worry about maintaining his distance like Vegeta because he's not actually fighting Boo. He's image training, and thus in no real danger whether he stands be on the losing end with regular SS or not. That's regardless of whether he's holding back, and the fact remains that A. Boo wasn't one-shotting Vegeta in SS2, and B. Goku tends to form cycle a lot.

There's just no evidence to suggest that there's some gargantuan difference between Goku's strength in the Boo arc and manga-BoG. He likely got a bit stronger since then, but it's nothing that the story felt was particularly worth noting.

[Skar]

Using that random guesstimate? Probably around 10 million if you choose to use the SEG multipliers. We don't know for certain if SSJ Goku in that scene would have been able to defeat Kid Buu; only that he seemed willing to engage the Majin with just SSJ. At a minimum I believe he could have fought well against Kid Buu with SSJ though he may not have won without transforming further.

Would that result in better gains than all his various training since the Freeza saga? A year on Yardrat, three years with Piccolo, a year with Gohan, and seven years in Other World vs occasional image training for four years? I know training gains aren't always consistent but that would mean image training was the most effective training he's ever done in his life up to that point.