Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

I don’t think people will give too much thought to it. Moreover I assume it’s not even clear if Monaito granted the wish or not, or if Toronbo heard Bardock and thus granted his wish.

This will be probably left up for interpretation, which is cool by me.

That'd be the ideal outcome. I suppose Monaito could have simply dismissed Toronbo which would still have scattered the Dragon Balls, right?

[OrangeBanana]

Spoiler:

I guess then Goku will beat Gas by going MUI and pushing himself to the limit, growing in strength as the battle progresses with it culminating in him achieving a new level of MUI (Super MUI???)

[Grimlock]

What the Japanese "leaker" said might be true, Bardock's wish, if it was granted, could change everything. But it raises some questions:

1 - For how long does wishing for someone to be well last?
2 - What can the wish protect them from? Is it selective?
3 - If Goku being alive to this very day is still thanks to the wish, shouldn't something have happened to Raditz already?

[emperior]

What the Japanese "leaker" said might be true, Bardock's wish, if it was granted, could change everything. But it raises some questions:

1 - For how long does wishing for someone to be well last?
2 - What can the wish protect them from? Is it selective?
3 - If Goku being alive to this very day is still thanks to the wish, shouldn't something have happened to Raditz already?

Bardock wanted them to grow up well. Of course if it happened it would not be infinite. Heck, I assume that the wish expired once they both became adults.

And they both died immediately after, as if the fact they were spared from Vegeta’s destruction only postponed their destined demise.

[Soba Mask]

The wish worked for Raditz... He was killed by his own blood later on....and have grown up well. LOL

[OLKv3]

So the big secret to winning was "never give up, just fight like you always do Goku"
Whoa..

[emperior]

So the big secret to winning was "never give up, just fight like you always do Goku"
Whoa..

Yeah this was… underwhelming? I wonder if Toyotaro had grander plans which were shut down by Toriyama.

I am sort of a fan of this development, which is very safe by the way, but at least we got Goku remembering his parents which is quite big. Will the grit to win be what Goku needs to get stronger?

There will be more to Bardock’s story in the past, by the way. How did he escape from Cereal, and why did he leave his scouter there? I think there will be some interesting developments there.

[batistabus]

So the big secret to winning was "never give up, just fight like you always do Goku"
Whoa..

Well, I'm sure some of the characters will react that way as well. There's no obvious strategy or weakness that Gas has. It's just whatever that story ends up meaning to Goku.

[Grimlock]

Bardock wanted them to grow up well. Of course if it happened it would not be infinite. Heck, I assume that the wish expired once they both became adults.

Then it would be my immediate headcanon that the wish expired once they were both killed by Piccolo. I gotta be honest, it feels like Toyotaro went a bit J. K. Rowling with her idea of protection for Harry Potter due to his mother's love and all.

And they both died immediately after, as if the fact they were spared from Vegeta’s destruction only postponed their destined demise.

We see things that should have killed Goku, but didn't, they weren't just "lucky", it also had Bardock's involvement. Off the top of my head, Jaco pissing on Tights and her throwing him off a cliff, missing Goku in the process. Who would knew Bardock could somehow be involved in a moment like this?

[chitarra10]

Here is my Dragon Ball Super chapter 83 full summary that I can share with you.

Spoiler:

- Chapter 83: "Bardock Vs. Gas 2".
- Gas creates a mace to continue attacking Bardock.
- Monaito begs Bardock to leave him and Granolah to their fate and save himself. Bardock refuses to do it.
- Gas tells Bardock that even if he runs away, Saiyans doesn't have much time left (that's what Elec told him).
- Bardock gets angry and tells Gas that they are the one with no future. He then shots a Ki ball at Gas.
- Gas dodges it and attacks Bardock with his mace. Bardock stops it with his arms but he is seriously damaged.
- Bardock grabs the mace and throws Gas away from the area, then tells Monaito and Granolah to leave.
- Bardock: "This is my battle and you're in the middle!!"
- Gas is tired of Bardock's annoying attacks, so he decides to unleash his "instincts" a bit and changes form (but he doesn't reach his "Broly" form yet).
- Monaito goes to his house and takes out the 2 Dragon Balls. Although it is forbidden to use them for their own sake, Monaito believes that using them for someone from another planet is OK.
- Bardock is upset about fighting someone who can change his fighting power, Gas tells him that his power doesn't work like that exactly.
- Gas tells Bardock that he must give up, but Bardock says no. Bardock is happy to be able to fight against someone strong.
- Gas and Bardock continue exchanging attacks. In the distance we can see "Trombo", the dragon that Monaito has summoned.
- Monaito asks the dragon to send Bardock back to his home planet.
- Trombo contacts with Bardock and tells him that he is going to send him to Planet Vegeta at the request of Monaito.
- Bardock doesn't know what is happening and who is talking to him. Trombo explains that he is a dragon that grants wishes. Gas wonders who Bardock is talking to and then he sees the dragon in the distance.
- Trombo tells Monaito that Bardock has refused to the wish. We see Bardock says that the Saiyans don't run away from their enemies even if they are going to die.
- Bardock and Gas are still fighting. Monaito speaks telepathically with Bardock and asks him to leave the plante becouse Bardock can help others as he has done with him.
- Bardock refuses again, he's not going to leave until he defeats Gas.
- Monaito then asks Bardock if he has another wish since he wants to help him no matter what. Bardock wonders if Monaito is going to ask the wish to a shooting star (he hasn't seen the dragon yet).
- Bardock: ""Well then, yeah... May my sons grow up well... I wish them well""
- Elec, Maki and Oil are watching the explosions from the fight between Bardock and Gas. Suddenly, they see a light in the distance that goes up into the sky and then splits in two.
- They wonder what it is, since the light appears in the area where the Namekian's house is. Oil makes a wish, Maki tells him that it's not a shooting star.
- Elec says them not to worry about that and to go for Frieza's ship since it won't take long to arrive.
- Monaito looks at the sky while the Dragon Balls leave. He then looks at Granolah, who is still asleep.
- Monaito: "Wishes should be used to give hope to the future. Selfish wishes only bring ruin. I almost made a big mistake. Now I must focus on protecting that hope."
- Gas hits Bardock with some Ki balls. Bardock defends himself but in the end he falls to the ground very tired.
- Gas approaches him and grabs his tail, then he shakes Bardock and finally rips his tail off by force.
- Gas: "You can no longer transform into a giant ape!!"
- Gas creates a spear with his powers and throws it at Bardock, but Monaito gets in the way and the spear goes through Monaito's shoulder.
- Monaito: "I'm sorry about what I did before. I've decided that I must protect Granolah by myself."
- Gas enrages and unleashes his instincts 100% (he changes to his "Broly" form). Gas attacks both violently, Monaito crashes into some rocks.
- Gas grabs Bardock's neck and tells him that now he no longer has the Namekian to protect him. He also tells Bardock that he will find the kid and kill him.
- Bardock laughs and tells Gas that he shouldn't decide things without counting on the others. He won't die until he defeats Gas.
- Bardock creates a large Ki ball in his hand and makes it explode. Gas lets go Bardock that starts attacking Gas repeatedly, it seems that Bardock has regained his strength.
- Gas asks Bardock why he keeps fighting if he can't win, if he does it to repair his sins. Bardock says no.
- Gas then asks Bardock if he does it for revenge, Bardock says no again.
- Gas is furious and asks Bardock for an answer. Then he attacks Bardock.
- Bardock: "Of course that's obvious. When you're in a fight to the death, what kind of an idiot thinks about anything but "winning"?"
- An aura covers Bardock's body, then he stops Gas punch easily. Then Bardock punches Gas hard in the stomach.
- Bardock: "The only reason I fight is to see if I can beat the other bastard standing against me. That's all I care about."
- Gas wonders what is going on, how is it possible that Bardock has become stronger if the Saiyans have no other way to do it than transforming into giant apes.
- Bardock: "Perhaps you don't know. When we push past our limits, we often evolve. We Saiyans"
- Bardock keeps attacking Gas. Elec watches the fight from the distance.
- Bardock charges a Ki ball in his hand, it will be his last attack. He then throws it at Gas, who fully takes the attack.
- Gas falls to the ground unconscious, he has returned to his normal form. Bardock also falls to the ground exhausted.
- Elec approaches his brother, looks at him and says that he should train more. As Elec is about to pick Gas up to leave, he sees that Bardock is still alive.
- Bardock asks Elec if they are Frieza's allies, Elec laughs and asks Bardock if he knows what Frieza really has in mind.
- Elec: "Kukuku... You Saiyans are lucky. A meteor could fall near your heads."
- Bardock doesn't know what he is talking about. Elec tells Bardock that now that he has heard it, he must die and shoots Bardock with a gun.
- The shot goes through Bardock's right arm, then Bardock falls off a cliff into a forest.
- Elec is going to finish Bardock off, but Maki calls him and tells Elec that Frieza's ship has arrived.
- Elec shoots several times to the area where Bardock has fallen and leaves with Gas, since Bardock was so badly injured that he will die even if Elec doesn't kill him now.
- Monaito arrives at where Bardock is and begins to heal him (although he is also injured). Both of them and Granolah have survived.
- Monaito: "You have won, Bardock!"
- In the last panel we see that Bardock's scouter turns off, a sign that Elec has gone far enough that scouter can no longer detect him.

END

WOW!! DANG!! Bardock NOT going Super Saiyan makes me so happy to hear, as does the fact that the Dragon Balls didn't get used in the fight!! YES!! I love SO much that Bardock wins just by fighting his ass off and giving it everything he's got not matter what!! This is exactly what I wanted to see!! Because that's what I love about Bardock... he's not one of the impossible heroes like all the other main characters. No one can be a hero like all the other characters do with their crazy power-ups and SSJ-whatever things they do all the time, but anyone who's willing to stand up for what they know in their heart is right, even if they're the only one standing, and are willing to fight for it with everything they have, even if it cost them everything, and even if they know they might not even win can be a hero like Bardock. That connects him to the audience in a way that can't happen with all the other characters because he's not a "super hero" that we can never be, he's just a regular everyman character who's basically one of us, and what sets him apart is his courage, bravery, and heart, which is something we all can have. It gives us a way to sympathize and empathize with him that's unique, we can see through his eyes so much more easily, and we can even see ourselves in him in a way that we can't with everyone else. And it makes me SO happy that they didn't destroy that by making him power-up or by using the Dragon Balls to save him. I love it that it was Bardock showing that strength of character and heart are what it takes to win over just physical strength because it's perfectly in line with the entire overall theme of this story arc, and I freaking love that so much!! I can't freaking wait to see this in the manga, this chapter is so freaking awesome!!

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well. "The Past is Present", "What makes us who we really are?", and "Why do we fight?" all still coming through strong - possibly stronger than ever - in the theme-work for this arc, and it sounds like they're all pretty artfully deployed as integral to this single fight. That's pretty gratifying.

Looking forward to reading the Chapter properly.

[Zelvin]

Spoiler:

So, Bardock loses his tail in the fight, then gets a bullshit power up to win the fight, instead of power degradation from losing his tail, and the day is saved! Thanks to...not having a plan on how to make any of this work after making it clear Base Gas was much stronger than Bardock, which would mean Berserker Instinct Gas should paste him easily, yet doesn't because...well, literal Plot Protection.

[Grimlock]

In regards to whether Bardock got a power-up or not that people seem to have a disagreement:

Spoiler:

- Bardock laughs and tells Gas that he shouldn't decide things without counting on the others. He won't die until he defeats Gas.
- Bardock creates a large Ki ball in his hand and makes it explode. Gas lets go Bardock that starts attacking Gas repeatedly, it seems that Bardock has regained his strength.

(...)

- Bardock: "Of course that's obvious. When you're in a fight to the death, what kind of an idiot thinks about anything but "winning"?"
- An aura covers Bardock's body, then he stops Gas punch easily. Then Bardock punches Gas hard in the stomach.
- Bardock: "The only reason I fight is to see if I can beat the other bastard standing against me. That's all I care about."
- Gas wonders what is going on, how is it possible that Bardock has become stronger if the Saiyans have no other way to do it than transforming into giant apes.
- Bardock: "Perhaps you don't know. When we push past our limits, we often evolve. We Saiyans"

All of this screams "power-up" to me. One that comes from Bardock's desire to do nothing but win in a fight, since it's all he cares about. Bardock's aura doesn't seem to be the regular aura usually used to fly faster, as well as he himself saying that "push past limits/Saiyans evolve" (we obviously knew that, but in this context specifically, it provides a different meaning, to me at least). He got something, I can't tell. Or I'm just reading too much into it, I don't know.

[Super Murjin]

So is this how the timeline works:

1. Raditz born
2. Goku born
3. Bardock, Taro and Leek attack the Cerealians ..... Bardock fights Gas
4. Bardock later regroups with Leek to attack that alien race (seen at the start of Dragon Ball Minus)
5. Bardock goes back to Planet Vegeta with Leek, sends Goku off to Earth
6. Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta, Bardock tries to stop him dying in the process

Bardock vs Gas must take place weeks or months prior to Dragon Ball Minus?

Spoiler:

Unless Monaito is able to fully heal Bardock, allowing for his tail to grow back?

Thoughts

[batistabus]

Spoiler:

So Bardock's "instinct" power here seems to be based in his single-minded desire to "win" at all costs.

Bardock: "Of course that's obvious. When you're in a fight to the death, what kind of an idiot thinks about anything but "winning"?"
Bardock: "The only reason I fight is to see if I can beat the other bastard standing against me. That's all I care about."

I don't really think that "winning" is what drives Goku. He's happy to forfeit if he feels his opponent can't fight anymore. Goku would be happiest in a fight where both he and his opponent are pushing themselves higher and higher. I'm not sure what one-word "instinct" term would go with that.

Hopefully both Goku and Vegeta are able to get something out of this.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Spoiler:

So, Bardock loses his tail in the fight, then gets a bullshit power up to win the fight, instead of power degradation from losing his tail, and the day is saved! Thanks to...not having a plan on how to make any of this work after making it clear Base Gas was much stronger than Bardock, which would mean Berserker Instinct Gas should paste him easily, yet doesn't because...well, literal Plot Protection.

Why would losing the tail make Bardock's power degrade?

[kemuri07]

Spoiler:

- Monaito then asks Bardock if he has another wish since he wants to help him no matter what. Bardock wonders if Monaito is going to ask the wish to a shooting star (he hasn't seen the dragon yet).
- Bardock: ""Well then, yeah... May my sons grow up well... I wish them well""
- Elec, Maki and Oil are watching the explosions from the fight between Bardock and Gas. Suddenly, they see a light in the distance that goes up into the sky and then splits in two.
- They wonder what it is, since the light appears in the area where the Namekian's house is. Oil makes a wish, Maki tells him that it's not a shooting star.

So I think from this line alone its pretty obvious that Bardock's wish was granted. I don't care for this development because I think all this retconning has done is to needlessly complicate Dragon Ball's lore, but if this is going to happen then I think its clear that the response to that wish was to allow Raditz and Goku to survive Planet Vegeta's destruction--and that's it. I think if we go further than that, that opens up a can of worms that, frankly, I really don't care for. Like I mentioned about the possibility that I don't like the idea of Bardock being "special" because it absolutely undermines Goku's character progression. Rather than someone who became the most powerful on earth, and later the entire galaxy, through sheer will power, now he's someone who was destined to be great. That's lame. That's absolutely lame.

It's all of these changes to Goku's origin story does nothing for him as a character. It doesn't make him or Bardock more interesting. It's just more shit for the sake of shit because this franchise refuses to evolve from the status quo.

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

Seems I was more or less right. Bardock wins by good-old emotional-grit Saiyan power-up, and that's what Goku needs to embrace again rather than copy Whis' aloofness. It's a way to complete some character issues hanging over him since the ToP in a germane way, and makes use of Bardock's whims and personality as well. Bringing UI into his own instead of having to utterly change who he is works well, despite the push-back pages ago in this thread. Fits with a general martial-arts drama theme Super has been going for for some time of finding your own way to master things.

The wish is cute, but I don't think it's something to read too much into in terms of greater implications. It just keeps both his sons well and may be an extra boon in their surviving the destruction of Vegeta. Maybe it gave Goku a leg up in surviving the Super Divine Water. It's pretty much a nothing thing, but a solid moment for Bardock in this context.

Excited to read the full chapter!

Spoiler:

So the big secret to winning was "never give up, just fight like you always do Goku"
Whoa..

Sometimes less is more. Goku had been struggling to do just that all arc (and arguably beforehand--ever since the ToP). It's coherent. I couldn't imagine any big secret twist working any better for the story, which is why this was along the lines of what I was expecting.

[OLKv3]

Spoiler:

Seems I was more or less right. Bardock wins by good-old emotional-grit Saiyan power-up, and that's what Goku needs to embrace again rather than copy Whis' aloofness. It's a way to complete some character issues hanging over him since the ToP in a germane way, and makes use of Bardock's whims and personality as well. Bringing UI into his own instead of having to utterly change who he is works well, despite the push-back pages ago in this thread. Fits with a general martial-arts drama theme Super has been going for for some time of finding your own way to master things.

The wish is cute, but I don't think it's something to read too much into in terms of greater implications. It just keeps both his sons well and may be an extra boon in their surviving the destruction of Vegeta. Maybe it gave Goku a leg up in surviving the Super Divine Water. It's pretty much a nothing thing, but a solid moment for Bardock in this context.

Excited to read the full chapter!

Spoiler:

So the big secret to winning was "never give up, just fight like you always do Goku"
Whoa..

Sometimes less is more. Goku had been struggling to do just that all arc (and arguably beforehand--ever since the ToP). It's coherent. I couldn't imagine any big secret twist working any better for the story, which is why this was along the lines of what I was expecting.

Spoiler:

I don't think Monaito ever actually made the wish

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

I don't think Monaito ever actually made the wish

Spoiler:

The ambiguity would definitely work too. Guess I'll just have to see how it seems like it plays out on the page!