Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

Yep. It’s just the assumption/acknowledgement that manga-continuity RoF events would have to play out slightly differently because its BoG ones do as well—really just coming down to Goku not absorbing the God power into lower forms in the manga. The base Goku-Freeza fight would have to play out differently accordingly.

Yup, and it could be something as simple as having Goku fight Freeza in Super Saiyan God, showing how far the tyrant has come in his training. Then afterwards they both transform in Blue and Golden, respectively.

[Koitsukai]

If you don't rethink RoF's events, you end up having Frost being 50x stronger than SSG(basically RoF SSB), and Piccolo being slightly below that (basically below SSB). We know, also that Golden Freeza is on a whole other level than FF Frost. And we'd be assuming Goku's SS is now above his previous SSB form.
We also have SS forms now, and the God base form from RoF(because it was NOT the usual base form) is never seen or mentioned again.
Goku commenting on Trunks' power also loses relevance, if Trunks is 100x stronger than SSG from RoF (twice as strong as SSB), it'd be like Goku saying to Moro that he's even stronger than Gohan was back then.


I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

Yup, and it could be something as simple as having Goku fight Freeza in Super Saiyan God, showing how far the tyrant has come in his training. Then afterwards they both transform in Blue and Golden, respectively.

I'd argue that would make it impossible for other people to fight FF Freeza during the ToP, if he's SSG level. Caulifla's SS would be above SSG if she forces him to go Golden. Kefla would be amazingly stronger than in the anime, as well. Of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but given the type of conservative scaling the manga has, it would require a whole different scenario for the ToP, though it could be even better than what we got.
OTOH, it would've been fantastic to see SSG vs Freeza.

[Mr Baggins]

I'd argue that would make it impossible for other people to fight FF Freeza during the ToP, if he's SSG level.

Right. As much as I like the idea of Freeza in his final form fighting Super Saiyan God, I don't think the Tournament of Power portrays him at that level. It's far more likely that Golden Freeza is his only "godlike" form in the manga.

It's ridiculous to compare that to reality since our mind and body don't grow stronger from just our imagination whereas image training and meditation in general clearly has a profound effect on a fighter's battle power.

No, it's ridiculous to say that it was physically strenuous for Goku when he wasn't strained or winded from it at all. He was bored and flat-out said he'd rather resume his training at Kai's planet.

There is nothing to analyze or dissect about image training. It's exactly what its name implies, and how it was described -- an imaginary simulation based on how the user recalls their opponent's fighting style and movements (if they're not telepathically training with a partner). At every point in both the original series and Super, the characters ditch it for something more effective and only seem to do it when there are no alternatives available. It can help one moderately improve, otherwise there's nothing profound about it.

[ZombieVito]

ToP Final form Freeza is actually depicted the same in both mediums. Super Saiyan tier.

The tier just varies in power since in the anime it's over 50 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks and in the manga it's (At the bare minimum) 50 times stronger than Shin.

[Lionel]

I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

The question could also be asked of why the ROSAT is perceived as a worthwhile training asset after so many years and uses following its inception in the Cell arc.

Regardless of it being Freeza, how did he, while languishing in a cocoon in hell being tormented, successfully grow so much more powerful by his admitted use of the image training methodology being cited? For that matter how could swinging a sword around to improve 'arm strength' for a day prompt even Goku to speculate on his son's possible odds against Buu instead of bluntly dismissing it as wishful thinking?

[Koitsukai]

I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

The question could also be asked of why the ROSAT is perceived as a worthwhile training asset after so many years and uses following its inception in the Cell arc.

Regardless of it being Freeza, how did he, while languishing in a cocoon in hell being tormented, successfully grow so much more powerful by his admitted use of the image training methodology being cited? For that matter how could swinging a sword around to improve 'arm strength' for a day prompt even Goku to speculate on his son's possible odds against Buu instead of bluntly dismissing it as wishful thinking?

Because the ROSAT was beneficial to more than just one person. And not just once but several times. By the FT arc it has proven to still be beneficial for Vegeta.

Freeza did so because the plot required it. Also, he mainly got his golden form under control, he didn't actually become stronger, he became better at using it, more efficient. Similar to mastering SSB. And even if he actually got stronger, that's also the plot doing it for him, not the means used.
While the image training benefits are 'debunked' in the next page of the chapter and on the next chapter, too. Freeza's weren't.

[Mr Baggins]

Freeza's image training did make him stronger (nobody is disputing this, by the way), but only just enough to reduce the drawbacks of his Golden form and put him on par with Blue again. Nothing remotely major there.

Goku likewise probably marginally improved with his own usage of it, but clearly not to the same degree as Kai's planet; which, by the way, was itself surpassed as a training method after the Saiyan arc.

[ZombieVito]

I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

The question could also be asked of why the ROSAT is perceived as a worthwhile training asset after so many years and uses following its inception in the Cell arc.

Regardless of it being Freeza, how did he, while languishing in a cocoon in hell being tormented, successfully grow so much more powerful by his admitted use of the image training methodology being cited? For that matter how could swinging a sword around to improve 'arm strength' for a day prompt even Goku to speculate on his son's possible odds against Buu instead of bluntly dismissing it as wishful thinking?

Because plot.

Series never cared to make power gains make sense.

[Lionel]

I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

The question could also be asked of why the ROSAT is perceived as a worthwhile training asset after so many years and uses following its inception in the Cell arc.

Regardless of it being Freeza, how did he, while languishing in a cocoon in hell being tormented, successfully grow so much more powerful by his admitted use of the image training methodology being cited? For that matter how could swinging a sword around to improve 'arm strength' for a day prompt even Goku to speculate on his son's possible odds against Buu instead of bluntly dismissing it as wishful thinking?

Because the ROSAT was beneficial to more than just one person. And not just once but several times. By the FT arc it has proven to still be beneficial for Vegeta.

Freeza did so because the plot required it. Also, he mainly got his golden form under control, he didn't actually become stronger, he became better at using it, more efficient. Similar to mastering SSB. And even if he actually got stronger, that's also the plot doing it for him, not the means used.
While the image training benefits are 'debunked' in the next page of the chapter and on the next chapter, too. Freeza's weren't.

Freeza's image training did make him stronger (nobody is disputing this, by the way), but only just enough to reduce the drawbacks of his Golden form and put him on par with Blue again. Nothing remotely major there.

Goku likewise probably marginally improved with his own usage of it, but clearly not to the same degree as Kai's planet; which, by the way, was itself surpassed as a training method after the Saiyan arc.

Oh so it's consistently beneficial therefore it doesn't succumb to the cliche of being a utilised and discarded tool. The conditions inside the room haven't changed sans for its allowance of greater duration of time spent for a user. If one were to point to the before and after results of both Freeza and Future Trunks' efforts with the image training then does that represent consistency or just repetitive lucky chances?

The plot... Rationale is extended insomuch as it's asserted as being convenient for the plot. So the activity itself is discarded because that's the determination made? Also, there must really be a minimalist interpretation of the improvements made by not only Goku but Vegeta as well in their blue forms from the end of the ROF to the beginning of the Tournament of Power seeing as Freeza apparently fought with Goku to an impasse and Goku himself acknowledged Freeza's ability to challenge Vegeta.

The scene itself wasn't debunked. If it was then it represents an unneeded and misleading spectacle which is to simulate... just movement and fighting styles? Now that sounds like speculation.

[ZombieVito]

The question could also be asked of why the ROSAT is perceived as a worthwhile training asset after so many years and uses following its inception in the Cell arc.

Regardless of it being Freeza, how did he, while languishing in a cocoon in hell being tormented, successfully grow so much more powerful by his admitted use of the image training methodology being cited? For that matter how could swinging a sword around to improve 'arm strength' for a day prompt even Goku to speculate on his son's possible odds against Buu instead of bluntly dismissing it as wishful thinking?

Because the ROSAT was beneficial to more than just one person. And not just once but several times. By the FT arc it has proven to still be beneficial for Vegeta.

Freeza did so because the plot required it. Also, he mainly got his golden form under control, he didn't actually become stronger, he became better at using it, more efficient. Similar to mastering SSB. And even if he actually got stronger, that's also the plot doing it for him, not the means used.
While the image training benefits are 'debunked' in the next page of the chapter and on the next chapter, too. Freeza's weren't.

Freeza's image training did make him stronger (nobody is disputing this, by the way), but only just enough to reduce the drawbacks of his Golden form and put him on par with Blue again. Nothing remotely major there.

Goku likewise probably marginally improved with his own usage of it, but clearly not to the same degree as Kai's planet; which, by the way, was itself surpassed as a training method after the Saiyan arc.

Oh so it's consistently beneficial therefore it doesn't succumb to the cliche of being a utilised and discarded tool. The conditions inside the room haven't changed sans for its allowance of greater duration of time spent for a user. If one were to point to the before and after results of both Freeza and Future Trunks' efforts with the image training then does that represent consistency or just repetitive lucky chances?

The plot... Rationale is extended insomuch as it's asserted as being convenient for the plot. So the activity itself is discarded because that's the determination made? Also, there must really be a minimalist interpretation of the improvements made by not only Goku but Vegeta as well in their blue forms from the end of the ROF to the beginning of the Tournament of Power seeing as Freeza apparently fought with Goku to an impasse and Goku himself acknowledged Freeza's ability to challenge Vegeta.

The scene itself wasn't debunked. If it was then it represents an unneeded and misleading spectacle which is to simulate... just movement and fighting styles? Now that sounds like speculation.

Ironically the power increase from RoF to the ToP is not that big in the anime. Last time I did power levels I could make it fit into a 2 times increase easily.

The manga is another story entirely. Goku (And by extension Vegeta/Freeza) did get a big boost between arcs thanks to Perfected Blue since it matched Fused Zamasu, who got a big fusion boost according to official promo information.

[Mr Baggins]

Oh so it's consistently beneficial therefore it doesn't succumb to the cliche of being a utilised and discarded tool.

...every training method is consistently beneficial. That's what makes it training.

Some are just less beneficial than others. Not all training is equal. Dragon Ball has been excruciatingly clear about this since day one, my dude.

Also, there must really be a minimalist interpretation of the improvements made by not only Goku but Vegeta as well in their blue forms from the end of the ROF to the beginning of the Tournament of Power

The manga itself is minimalist about it. Blue's whole deal is that it's characterized by its rapid decline in strength, only capable of outputting full power for a fleeting period of time. The only difference with Complete Blue is that it can fight at a constant 100%; standard Blue, before they perfected it, isn't that much weaker at first. It degrades over time while in use.

We can see this principle in action with Vegeta's instantaneous God-Blue strategy against Black, which Goku says he employed against Hit earlier in U6's tournament. Rather than getting massively stronger during that period, they were specifically just overcoming a weakness. Freeza's weakness (as portrayed in RoF) is similar.

If it was then it represents an unneeded and misleading spectacle

Toyotaro drew like two pages of Goku playing around with choreography and comically popping villains like balloons in his mind while big goofy sound effects play out on the panel, followed by him telling Goten he needs to be able to keep up with Boo level baddies. Then he says he wishes he could train on Kai's planet instead. Next chapter: Goku is on Kai's planet and is ecstatic that he gets to train for real now.

So what tipped you off about the "unneeded spectacle" part? Do you think Toyotaro was taking those few panels as seriously as you're taking them, even if he went out of his way to downplay them (and the concept of Goku's "training" on the farm) in the story?

I don't want you to answer or respond, although whether you do is obviously up to you. Just think about it for a while. Reflect.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ignoring everything else, the series never mentions the near-death power-ups after the Namek arc, and Trunks makes it explicit that Goku and Vegeta have already tapped theirs out during the Future Trunks arc, when explaining the ability to Mai. (And why Black is continuing to benefit from it while Vegeta won't.)

On everything else: I still can't wrap my head around the idea of assuming quiet, manifold improvements for all the characters after the Namek/Cell arcs when the one time the story ever comes down on the idea either way is to nix it in Battle of Gods. Characters also regularly worry about hitting peaks without specialized training. As mentioned in previous pages, there's no reason for Piccolo to have to be radically above his Cell Games self to get his performance against Frost (if Frost is Cell-ish level, which he can be), and I actually am of the persuasion that #18 isn't significantly stronger in the Moro arc, as she only ever participates in team attacks. As with every other character who makes substantial increases in the series, I would expect some dialogue to be paid to her were she have supposed to.

Otherwise it's just a game of assuming large leaps are happening without reference or not, but the series has only ever really thrown its weight behind one reading. I'll probably be accused of low-balling here, but when given the chance to be explicit about something, the series has only ever low-balled itself. Give me a dialogue statement and I'll accept any increase--but both series are so good about providing those when that's the case, and have come down on that not being the case when not stated (BoG), that where none is given I'll personally read none as happening every time.

(Re: #17, he gets dialogue. He also gets some explanatory context in a manga back-up, as even Toyotaro was searching for a way to add a bit more coherence and context to his level of improvement.)

Re: Above: I ... honestly can't even believe we're dissecting the image-training sequence. It's the only major action beat in the first chapter of the series. Toyotaro just wanted to have Goku doing some imaginary sparring in an iconic form--I don't think it would have been in his wildest dreams that fans would read into the strength implications there, nor do I think any are given. Especially when the whole thrust of the chapter is Goku having barely been able to seriously train since the Boo arc.

Goku Black did say he was letting Trunks live so he could come back stronger and make him stronger too. Just assumed he was getting zenkais since training conditions were rather poor in the future and Trunks was doing nothing besides hiding and getting his ass kicked. I agree that near death boosts stopped being a thing since Namek, but Future Trunks did go pretty far without proper training.

I'm not sure what's quiet or assumed about Goku popping Cell's head like a balloon. Are we not supposed to take fights into account in a show about fighting? Getting some 10x stronger (If we take the fight he was about to start with Boo into account) in 4 years is really not that special when Goku was getting power ups this big within a week back on Namek.

I think you're severely underestimating the difference in power between Post Rosat Piccolo and Perfect Cell. Even reaching Goku's power from the Cell Games would be quite a feat that's not stated anywhere... The only explanatory we've seen from 17, manga-wise at least, is him telling Piccolo he hasn't even done any training. I have no doubts that was just meant to be a funny scene, but you're still reading something that wasn't spelled out anywhere. Even the bonus chapter only uses the Cell Jrs. to reinforce his strength rather than explain it. You're playing that same game of assuming you just talked about. Same here:

Yep. It’s just the assumption/acknowledgement that manga-continuity RoF events would have to play out slightly differently because its BoG ones do as well—really just coming down to Goku not absorbing the God power into lower forms in the manga. The base Goku-Freeza fight would have to play out differently accordingly.

Toyotaro presumably skipped RoF because we already had the movie version and the anime was adapting it... so how is it the conclusion that things actually played out differently?

I feel 10x can't happen because he never tries to do it against Piccolo who wasn't even twice as strong as him (139 vs < 260). You would think he would try to do it since he would be in the 1,000's but he decides to risk his life doing the Mafuba instead.

I think 2 times could work. It surpasses Piccolo but not by much and the latter can always evade the Kamehameha. By the time of RoF, I can see him getting more out of it since he can actually move now in the form.

Maybe, but the math never really adds up with that half of the series. Piccolo said he wasn't even using half of his power to beat up Goku, so Roshi should be lucky to be anywhere near half of Piccolo's level. Unless we're ignoring the official numbers and assuming Roshi was below 139 back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, but even then his PL can only be so low.

Yamcha also thought Roshi was going to kill Oozaru Goku and he talked about sensing "fighting spirit" earlier in the saga, so he already had some crude form of Ki sensing back then. Not sure how reliable that was though.

Really? Goku beating up Merged Zamasu and fighting Hit without Kaio-Ken always looked like quite a big deal to me.

I used to think the manga had fairly minimalistic gains, but now I think the boost PSSJB gives is comparable to the limit breaking Goku and Vegeta did in the anime.

If you don't rethink RoF's events, you end up having Frost being 50x stronger than SSG(basically RoF SSB), and Piccolo being slightly below that (basically below SSB). We know, also that Golden Freeza is on a whole other level than FF Frost. And we'd be assuming Goku's SS is now above his previous SSB form.
We also have SS forms now, and the God base form from RoF(because it was NOT the usual base form) is never seen or mentioned again.
Goku commenting on Trunks' power also loses relevance, if Trunks is 100x stronger than SSG from RoF (twice as strong as SSB), it'd be like Goku saying to Moro that he's even stronger than Gohan was back then.


I also don't understand why we had 2 pages of in-depth analysis of an image training panel... when two pages later we have Goku going nuts because he can finally go to Kaio's to train. That's the answer to the image training relevance: Goku drops it immediately at the chance of training for real. I don't think there's ever been something as clear as this. The following chapter has Goku, at Kaio's, literally saying I CAN FINALLY RESUME MY TRAINING. We need to actually read the story and not just each of the traces of a panel.

I would hardly call taking something face value "in depth". We see Goku one shotting Cell and about to fight Kid Boo. The mental gymanstics is in how Goku is imagining them to be weaker than they are, how image training is not effective (Even though it constitues the bulk of Piccolo's training and raised Goku's Ki the most in the Afterlife according to the SEG), in how this is the only kind of training he's done since Boo's defeat...

On him being hyped to train with Kaio... he's just hyped that he's getting away from Chi-Chi, lol.

Spoiler:

Worth pointing out Goten says Chi-Chi is the strongest for bossing Goku around, but I guess she's can also boss Gohan and Gotenks around for being their (half) mother.

battle power.

No, it's ridiculous to say that it was physically strenuous for Goku when he wasn't strained or winded from it at all. He was bored and flat-out said he'd rather resume his training at Kai's planet.
[/quote]

Worth pointing out that was literally just what he did. Goku didn't have to work until Gyumao's fortune dried up at a unspecified point, and even then Satan was occasionally giving them money.

Toyotaro drew like two pages of Goku playing around with choreography and comically popping villains like balloons in his mind while big goofy sound effects play out on the panel, followed by him telling Goten he needs to be able to keep up with Boo level baddies. Then he says he wishes he could train on Kai's planet instead. Next chapter: Goku is on Kai's planet and is ecstatic that he gets to train for real now.

I'll say something that I said to someone else in this same post: Are we not to take fighting sequences seriously in a series about fighting anymore? People talk a lot about how direct Beerus was in his statement, but Goku fighting Cell and Boo is like a fever dream?

Here's another reading of the sequence:

We get a glimpse of what's Goku been up to. He's been kinda busy, but he's still training what he can and now dwarfs his former enemies before the new one is introdced, a trope present in every saga of the series thus far. Goten is pretty impressed by his power, but Goku himself is not satifisfied and would rather train with his master instead. Leaning into the anime here (But still following Goku's characterization in Super), the guy simply cannot stay put and is always looking for something better to do. Even if training alone could make him a million times stronger, he knows training with a master is going to be better.

And unless I'm missing something, there's nothing goofy about illusions disintegrating or the sound effects that are present in serious fights.

Spoiler:

Ironically the power increase from RoF to the ToP is not that big in the anime. Last time I did power levels I could make it fit into a 2 times increase easily.

The manga is another story entirely. Goku (And by extension Vegeta/Freeza) did get a big boost between arcs thanks to Perfected Blue since it matched Fused Zamasu, who got a big fusion boost according to official promo information.

Really? Goku beating up Merged Zamasu before he mutated and fighting a improved Hit without Kaio-Ken look like pretty big deals to me. I think he made some small gains in the Rosat and after U6 (He and Vegeta do comment in each other's gains after the tournament), but the bulk of the gains come in the Goku Black Saga itself since Goku actually slacked off between that and the ToP.

I used to think Goku and Vegeta's gains were pretty neglible in the manga since all they did was perfect SSJB, but nowadays I think they made gains similar to the anime. Merged Zamasu was treating them like flies before, not to mention Vegeta going from below SSJ Goku Black to above SSJR even before PSSJB.

[Lionel]

Oh so it's consistently beneficial therefore it doesn't succumb to the cliche of being a utilised and discarded tool.

...every training method is consistently beneficial. That's what makes it training.

Some are just less beneficial than others. Not all training is equal. Dragon Ball has been excruciatingly clear about this since day one, my dude.

Also, there must really be a minimalist interpretation of the improvements made by not only Goku but Vegeta as well in their blue forms from the end of the ROF to the beginning of the Tournament of Power

The manga itself is minimalist about it. Blue's whole deal is that it's characterized by its rapid decline in strength, only capable of outputting full power for a fleeting period of time. The only difference with Complete Blue is that it can fight at a constant 100%; standard Blue, before they perfected it, isn't that much weaker at first. It degrades over time while in use.

We can see this principle in action with Vegeta's instantaneous God-Blue strategy against Black, which Goku says he employed against Hit earlier in U6's tournament. Rather than getting massively stronger during that period, they were specifically just overcoming a weakness.

If it was then it represents an unneeded and misleading spectacle

I don't know how many more ways this could possibly be explained, but let's recap and summarize.

Toyotaro drew like two pages of Goku playing around with choreography and comically popping villains like balloons in his mind while big goofy sound effects play out on the panel, followed by him telling Goten he needs to be able to keep up with Boo level baddies. Then he says he wishes he could train on Kai's planet instead. Next chapter: Goku is on Kai's planet and is ecstatic that he gets to train for real now.

So what tipped you off about the "unneeded spectacle" part? Do you think Toyotaro was taking those few panels as seriously as you're taking them, even if he went out of his way to downplay them (and the concept of image training in general) in the story?

I don't want you to answer or respond, although whether you do is obviously up to you. Just think about it for a while. Reflect.

What I wonder concerning the panels is how a clear gauntlet exhibition of continuously improving villains from the past engaged or intended to be enraged by the main character with a form that was previously cast aside as insufficient to properly fight them but is being utilised now can be extrapolated as some theatre expressing just movements and fighting styles. Drawing these reasons about how Goku intended to transform further after finding himself coming to the inevitable conclusion of Super Saiyan 1's inadequacy against Buu when he had proven it to not be necessary with Cell is speculative. Toyotaro didn't need to provide the image training or if he compelled to yet the storyboard entailed for Goku to be written as requiring higher forms to challenge Kid Buu then that would have been elaborated on because Goku already knows what Kid Buu is capable of.

Despite the weakness of the blue form, Vegeta still found himself at a disadvantage against Black when he was using just standard Super Saiyan forms immediately after eating a sensu. Subsequent to his training in the ROSAT and discovering the swap out optimisation strategy for blue, though, we see how he's capable of overwhelming Black with his power. It was close to being the opposite situation before even when Vegeta would logically have full stamina and energy for his blue form to use.

On the matter of the image training method itself, thus far we've seen only significant benefits yielded by the effort. It isn't even a matter of retaining what you gained prior through some other means. Mental image training has precedently shown to yield good improvements. We see this as Freeza is alluded to have parity with Goku and Vegeta, presumably their blue forms, possibly the perfected state as well if what we see from Goku against Kale was actually that. Regarding that scene, yes Freeza was getting battered around but he admits that if he took the situation seriously he could also defeat Kale.

Also, comically popping? The ethos of Majin Buu is one big parody. It's difficult to find anything about him that isn't at least partly humorous at points except maybe for Kid Buu's insane disposition and certain portions of fights like the Buutenks segment with Gohan. Despite all that no one dismisses the presentation of Buu as a powerful force at the time.

[Thani]

Once more, it doesn't get much more "these fights didn't actually happen and have no bearing on actual strength levels" than image training.

[Mr Baggins]

I think I've said my peace, so I'll top this off with one last observation:

Even if we assume that image training is some esoteric technique, a qualitatively different experience than what it was described to be (a mental simulation) or that it's some massively beneficial training method even if all characters have largely abandoned it unless they had no alternative - which is already a stretch - there's no serious evidence that Goku was actually using that technique in Chapter 1 of Super.

The term "image training" isn't used anywhere in the chapter, even though it consistently is (when confirmed) in both manga serializations, and he isn't in a stationary meditative position as we've seen characters do in verified instances. People don't just explode like balloons after being punched in the face. He's exercising and sparring by himself while imagining previous enemies, and that's all we can go on.

It's also just not a serious sequence. The point of the chapter is that Goku doesn't get to train much now that Boo is defeated, which doesn't lend to any of the assumptions stated here. He preferred Kai's planet over this. He also outright said he's training just to face Boo level opponents. It doesn't get more obvious than that.

[Lionel]

It was what it was. Nothing suggests that what Goku subjected himself to was anything but the image training which is probably one of the closest things to an official term going by Dragon Ball media. Goku was using the same ability that Freeza and Future Trunks demonstrated.

Goku didn't have much time to commit to training on a daily basis but he did have three years since the Buu arc to undergo it. An expected work week of 48 hours tilling the soil as is the standard for farmers in Japan with an average sleeping schedule of 7.3 hours per day would still leave 8.7 hours a day to image train when not counting for time spent with family. You're looking at a potential maximum of over 9500 hours throughout the three years for training which is hundreds of times better than what Gohan had for time when working with the Z-Sword, potential or not.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also worth pointing out we don’t even know when Goku started working. Gyumao was paying his bills until he went broke and Satan seems willing to give him as much money as possible.

Considering Ki literally means Mind in Japanese (among other things, depending on how you translate it), I’d imagine it’s just as important as pulling heavy weights and sparring.

The bulk of Piccolo’s training in the series consists of meditating/image training. It’s all we see him doing most the time, and look how far it got him.

Once more, it doesn't get much more "these fights didn't actually happen and have no bearing on actual strength levels" than image training.

None of the fights in the series ever happened. It’s all fiction.

[ZombieVito]

Maybe, but the math never really adds up with that half of the series. Piccolo said he wasn't even using half of his power to beat up Goku, so Roshi should be lucky to be anywhere near half of Piccolo's level. Unless we're ignoring the official numbers and assuming Roshi was below 139 back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, but even then his PL can only be so low.

Yamcha also thought Roshi was going to kill Oozaru Goku and he talked about sensing "fighting spirit" earlier in the saga, so he already had some crude form of Ki sensing back then. Not sure how reliable that was though.

Really? Goku beating up Merged Zamasu before he mutated and fighting a improved Hit without Kaio-Ken look like pretty big deals to me. I think he made some small gains in the Rosat and after U6 (He and Vegeta do comment in each other's gains after the tournament), but the bulk of the gains come in the Goku Black Saga itself since Goku actually slacked off between that and the ToP.

I used to think Goku and Vegeta's gains were pretty neglible in the manga since all they did was perfect SSJB, but nowadays I think they made gains similar to the anime. Merged Zamasu was treating them like flies before, not to mention Vegeta going from below SSJ Goku Black to above SSJR even before PSSJB.

I do use the official numbers and I take that Piccolo line as him simply taking into account the max output he can do with an attack. Goku on the 23rd TB was already doing attacks over 900 so I think Piccolo can easily do attacks on the 500-600 range with 260.

Goku only beat Fused Zamasu by doing a limit breaking Kamehameha that cost him the use of his arms and then using what I believe was Kaioken x 10 based on the previews for the episode.

Goku fighting Hit is fine. Without the Time Skip, Hit is below the high Blue tier fighters. It has been like that on all 3 arcs he has appeared in.

I actually still think SSB Goku and Vegeta don't surpass SSR Goku Black [Scythe] until the Broly movie.

Also worth pointing out we don’t even know when Goku started working. Gyumao was paying his bills until he went broke and Satan seems willing to give him as much money as possible.

Isn't he working as soon as Age 776? On the Tarble special?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Isn't he working as soon as Age 776? On the Tarble special?

That’s a good catch. So he had at best 2 years to be training non stop before having to share his time with work.

[Hugo Boss]

ToP Final form Freeza is actually depicted the same in both mediums. Super Saiyan tier.

The tier just varies in power since in the anime it's over 50 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks and in the manga it's (At the bare minimum) 50 times stronger than Shin.

While I agree with placing Freeza’s true form at Super Saiyan level in both serializations, I think we have fundamentally different views on what this Super Saiyan level is.

First, in the anime, SS3 Gotenks fought a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Vegeta describes it with the same wordplay used in RoF. This means, had Gotenks fought a genuine golden-haired Super Saiyan, the fight would play out differently.

Second, in the manga, if Super Saiyan were 50 times stronger than Shin, that would mean Zamasu is more than 50 times stronger than Shin and by extension even more than that stronger than Kibito. Going by how their fight played out, it doesn’t seem Zamasu was so absurdly above Kibito. For reference, Zamasu is stronger than SS Goku and Kibito is weaker than Shin.

Toyotaro presumably skipped RoF because we already had the movie version and the anime was adapting it... so how is it the conclusion that things actually played out differently?

Because the movie was written with the idea that Goku and Vegeta had the power of Super Saiyan God when they were not transformed, which is not the case when they fought warriors from other universes and Broly.