Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

[supersaiyamangod]

I tried to fix that, but the solution I used to fix it, I would go to a screenshot containing piccolo and color correct it using the same solution. It would get me inaccurate colors for that damn namekian's skin. Nothing I can do about it.

So no way to isolate the human characters shots to color correction the skin tones? What about maybe recolor piccolo’s color with a color editor while fixing the skin tones?

Nope. One of the main reasons characters on my cc have pinkish colors are because it's just like that on the cels. Unless your fine with a more blue than green piccolo you can't go any further.

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up so this was how the show looked when it originally aired didn’t know that. is it possible to at least paint the red gi’s the color orange used in z or super?

[Lorium_O]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up so this was how the show looked when it originally aired didn’t know that. is it possible to at least paint the red gi’s the color orange used in z or super?

I'm sure there are some tools for that. I don't have em though.

[vanner64]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up so this was how the show looked when it originally aired didn’t know that. is it possible to at least paint the red gi’s the color orange used in z or super?

You're getting into revisionist personal corrections at this point. Also, if you apply a color correction or hue shift that turns a red gi into orange, it would also turn anything else red orange which wouldn't be right. The only possibility is someone willing to create a mask on the gi for every frame it appears in a possible 153 episodes. To that I say: good luck, and that is not how the show was drawn.

[supersaiyamangod]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up so this was how the show looked when it originally aired didn’t know that. is it possible to at least paint the red gi’s the color orange used in z or super?

You're getting into revisionist personal corrections at this point. Also, if you apply a color correction or hue shift that turns a red gi into orange, it would also turn anything else red orange which wouldn't be right. The only possibility is someone willing to create a mask on the gi for every frame it appears in a possible 153 episodes. To that I say: good luck, and that is not how the show was drawn.

The only reason I thought it was possible was because of the fact these types of edits using a computer that were done by team four star.

[Trachta10]

Maybe I don't like it because is cleary wrong?
How come nobody used a ​​cel as reference?
But I'm still open mind on it, maybe the opening has a different aspect ratio compared to the episode?

Using the cels as a reference is like saying a demo version of a game is the actual final product. Animation Cels are meant to be scanned with different colors and aspect ratios to begin with, which is why you see these bright, bleached skin colors for Goku in the cels. They're not the final product. The original broadcast video is.

The colors of the cels and obviously also their aspect ratio, It's how the show should actually look.
The original broadcast was probably really close to a cel look, not perfect, due to the difficulties caused by the technology of the time, but much better than anything you see today (level sets, dragon box), at least in colors.

Those "bright, bleached skin colors for Goku" are the accurate colors, not the terrible colors you have in the level sets or dragon box

[Trachta10]

But I'm still open mind on it, maybe the opening has a different aspect ratio compared to the episode?

Ahh, I see the problem now, it was an earlier mistake and I'm glad you caught me on that. The first pictures I posted (Goku in front of home, Pilaf, Goku and Jackie-Chun, General Blue, Goku and Tien, Goku and Chi-Chi) did not have the PAR transformation applied. That is why you think they look too wide (because those specific ones are!) I was just sharing to show off the colors and hadn't noticed since the aspect ratio was not the focus of my post. The first and last pictures from this original post are what you used to compare with the cels, and that is why they look "off".

The later before/after comparison posts, and the one with the ball in the opening, have the correct PAR transformation applied. Good eye! I did find you cel comparison interesting, but I would caution against using different frames. I found the exact frame on the 4:3 DVD and made my own comparison, centering both images on Goku's mouth and nose.
https://imgsli.com/MTA1OTQ1
And look at that! The 4:3 image had to be enlarged to match up with his nose and mouth. That 4:3 is a bit too tall vertically and should be stretched horizontally, just like the ball example earlier. Thanks for pushing me to try and find another example of why our updated 177:160 aspect ratio is correct, I'll be saving this image I made for sure!

You can read more about the industry standard here if you'd like https://lurkertech.com/lg/video-systems/#sq_rp187

Anyway, I think this detour has gone on long enough. I hope everyone learned something. We now return to our regularly scheduled color corrections.

It makes more sense now

do you think you might be able to find these screenshots in your cc dragon box?

episode 147


119


136


138


140


139


148


143


145

[Trachta10]

Maybe I don't like it because is cleary wrong?
How come nobody used a ​​cel as reference?
But I'm still open mind on it, maybe the opening has a different aspect ratio compared to the episode?

Using the cels as a reference is like saying a demo version of a game is the actual final product. Animation Cels are meant to be scanned with different colors and aspect ratios to begin with, which is why you see these bright, bleached skin colors for Goku in the cels. They're not the final product. The original broadcast video is.

The colors of the cels and obviously also their aspect ratio, It's how the show should actually look.
The original broadcast was probably really close to a cel look, not perfect, due to the difficulties caused by the technology of the time, but much better than anything you see today (level sets, dragon box), at least in colors.

Those "bright, bleached skin colors for Goku" are the accurate colors, not the terrible colors you have in the level sets or dragon box

Just a simple white balance and this is perfection

[vanner64]

But I'm still open mind on it, maybe the opening has a different aspect ratio compared to the episode?

Ahh, I see the problem now, it was an earlier mistake and I'm glad you caught me on that. The first pictures I posted (Goku in front of home, Pilaf, Goku and Jackie-Chun, General Blue, Goku and Tien, Goku and Chi-Chi) did not have the PAR transformation applied. That is why you think they look too wide (because those specific ones are!) I was just sharing to show off the colors and hadn't noticed since the aspect ratio was not the focus of my post. The first and last pictures from this original post are what you used to compare with the cels, and that is why they look "off".

The later before/after comparison posts, and the one with the ball in the opening, have the correct PAR transformation applied. Good eye! I did find you cel comparison interesting, but I would caution against using different frames. I found the exact frame on the 4:3 DVD and made my own comparison, centering both images on Goku's mouth and nose.
https://imgsli.com/MTA1OTQ1
And look at that! The 4:3 image had to be enlarged to match up with his nose and mouth. That 4:3 is a bit too tall vertically and should be stretched horizontally, just like the ball example earlier. Thanks for pushing me to try and find another example of why our updated 177:160 aspect ratio is correct, I'll be saving this image I made for sure!

You can read more about the industry standard here if you'd like https://lurkertech.com/lg/video-systems/#sq_rp187

Anyway, I think this detour has gone on long enough. I hope everyone learned something. We now return to our regularly scheduled color corrections.

It makes more sense now

do you think you might be able to find these screenshots in your cc dragon box?

Spoiler:

episode 147


119


136


138


140


139


148


143


145

I can find a few of those. This is what it looks likes for frames I have saved, about 200 for every episode.

I can't preview every single frame of Dragon Ball here but I can find some close examples:

119


136


138


139


140 (my personal favorite of the bunch)


Obviously we don't get that that oversaturated bright look of the cels (and we face some limitation due to video source), but the show was never meant to look like that of course.

[ikaos]

Maybe I don't like it because is cleary wrong?
How come nobody used a ​​cel as reference?
But I'm still open mind on it, maybe the opening has a different aspect ratio compared to the episode?

Using the cels as a reference is like saying a demo version of a game is the actual final product. Animation Cels are meant to be scanned with different colors and aspect ratios to begin with, which is why you see these bright, bleached skin colors for Goku in the cels. They're not the final product. The original broadcast video is.

The colors of the cels and obviously also their aspect ratio, It's how the show should actually look.
The original broadcast was probably really close to a cel look, not perfect, due to the difficulties caused by the technology of the time, but much better than anything you see today (level sets, dragon box), at least in colors.

Those "bright, bleached skin colors for Goku" are the accurate colors, not the terrible colors you have in the level sets or dragon box

No, he's right, the cels aren't how the show is intended to look, they are made in such a way knowing that they will be transferred to film where the colors will end up looking different. You can see this in pretty much any animation cel, not just Dragon Ball. The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other, and to see which parts of a shot are inherently darker than others - for example we Vanner's group uses cels to reference which parts of a character's hair is black or not, but they know enough about the animation process to know that cels should never be the only reference. As far as intended aspect ratio goes, again the show is meant to be broadcast on a 4:3 television, but like with everything on film the show was animated with some overscan protection on the edges. The cels themselves are often much wider or taller than even the film scans, and while it's interesting to look at, again it's not what was intended to be seen by the audience. All of that, coupled with how the scans of Dragon Ball cels that are online vary widely in terms of scan quality and color accuracy, are why it's not a good idea to rely solely on the cels as a reference. Of course the colors of the Dragon Box and the Level sets aren't accurate - but neither are the cels. The intended colors are always going to be somewhere in the middle.

[jjgp1112]

I think the best reference would be promo art and posters from that era since they use Toei's intended colors...for the most part.

But even then, you have to look to high quality and official sources since scan quality wildly varies. Like having the Golden Warrior book right in front of you.

[Trachta10]

Using the cels as a reference is like saying a demo version of a game is the actual final product. Animation Cels are meant to be scanned with different colors and aspect ratios to begin with, which is why you see these bright, bleached skin colors for Goku in the cels. They're not the final product. The original broadcast video is.

The colors of the cels and obviously also their aspect ratio, It's how the show should actually look.
The original broadcast was probably really close to a cel look, not perfect, due to the difficulties caused by the technology of the time, but much better than anything you see today (level sets, dragon box), at least in colors.

Those "bright, bleached skin colors for Goku" are the accurate colors, not the terrible colors you have in the level sets or dragon box

No, he's right, the cels aren't how the show is intended to look, they are made in such a way knowing that they will be transferred to film where the colors will end up looking different. You can see this in pretty much any animation cel, not just Dragon Ball. The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other, and to see which parts of a shot are inherently darker than others - for example we Vanner's group uses cels to reference which parts of a character's hair is black or not, but they know enough about the animation process to know that cels should never be the only reference. As far as intended aspect ratio goes, again the show is meant to be broadcast on a 4:3 television, but like with everything on film the show was animated with some overscan protection on the edges. The cels themselves are often much wider or taller than even the film scans, and while it's interesting to look at, again it's not what was intended to be seen by the audience. All of that, coupled with how the scans of Dragon Ball cels that are online vary widely in terms of scan quality and color accuracy, are why it's not a good idea to rely solely on the cels as a reference. Of course the colors of the Dragon Box and the Level sets aren't accurate - but neither are the cels. The intended colors are always going to be somewhere in the middle.

If this show is done today, in exactly the same way, but with today technology, (better scans, etc), we would see the show with colors 100% identical to the cels.

The end product looks worse and different from a cel, not because they wanted to make it look like that, but because of the limitations of that time.

One thing is to think we should aim to get that "film look" when we do the cc, because of the technical impossibilities of getting those cel colors, and another totally different thing is to think that the colors of the cels are somehow incorrect. The colors of the cels are absolutely perfect.

About the aspect ratio, I mean, of course they cropped the image a lot, but that doen't mean that the final product should look wider or less width compared to a cel, which means that using a cel as a reference is the best you can do, obviously if it was scanned correctly.

[lansing]

Using the cels as a reference is like saying a demo version of a game is the actual final product. Animation Cels are meant to be scanned with different colors and aspect ratios to begin with, which is why you see these bright, bleached skin colors for Goku in the cels. They're not the final product. The original broadcast video is.

The colors of the cels and obviously also their aspect ratio, It's how the show should actually look.
The original broadcast was probably really close to a cel look, not perfect, due to the difficulties caused by the technology of the time, but much better than anything you see today (level sets, dragon box), at least in colors.

Those "bright, bleached skin colors for Goku" are the accurate colors, not the terrible colors you have in the level sets or dragon box

No, he's right, the cels aren't how the show is intended to look, they are made in such a way knowing that they will be transferred to film where the colors will end up looking different. You can see this in pretty much any animation cel, not just Dragon Ball. The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other, and to see which parts of a shot are inherently darker than others - for example we Vanner's group uses cels to reference which parts of a character's hair is black or not, but they know enough about the animation process to know that cels should never be the only reference.

This makes no sense. It's like saying the intended color of the anime is black and white simply because it was shot in a black and white film.

[KPike87]

No, he's right, the cels aren't how the show is intended to look, they are made in such a way knowing that they will be transferred to film where the colors will end up looking different. You can see this in pretty much any animation cel, not just Dragon Ball. The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other, and to see which parts of a shot are inherently darker than others - for example we Vanner's group uses cels to reference which parts of a character's hair is black or not, but they know enough about the animation process to know that cels should never be the only reference.

This makes no sense. It's like saying the intended color of the anime is black and white simply because it was shot in a black and white film.

The cels were shot on film, and as someone who's worked with 16mm color film in the past, it's a pretty fickle format (and honestly sort of a pain in the ass to get it just the way you want it). While I personally have no idea how DBZ was made in this specific regard, nor can I backup iKaos if it was the "intended" look (though the incorrect hair colors do back him up a bit), I can tell you, even when the master were brand new, they didn't look like the cels/Kai. It all has to do with the amount of light used, and things shot on 16mm film in particular (compared to 35mm and 70mm) are not easy to get an exact match of what something looks like in the real world. While Kai's colors are graded in such a way to match the original cels with the master they had to go off of, the Dragon Box and Level Sets seem to be somewhat poor attempts to restore the original colors of the film itself; i.e, how the original broadcast looked.

This is actually something to consider even during the digital era; paint does not play well with it.

Regular scan; incorrect colors:

Spoiler:

What the colors actually look like IRL:

Spoiler:

[vanner64]

No, he's right, the cels aren't how the show is intended to look, they are made in such a way knowing that they will be transferred to film where the colors will end up looking different. You can see this in pretty much any animation cel, not just Dragon Ball. The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other, and to see which parts of a shot are inherently darker than others - for example we Vanner's group uses cels to reference which parts of a character's hair is black or not, but they know enough about the animation process to know that cels should never be the only reference.

This makes no sense. It's like saying the intended color of the anime is black and white simply because it was shot in a black and white film.

The cels were shot on film, and as someone who's worked with 16mm color film in the past, it's a pretty fickle format (and honestly sort of a pain in the ass to get it just the way you want it). While I personally have no idea how DBZ was made in this specific regard, nor can I backup iKaos if it was the "intended" look (though the incorrect hair colors do back him up a bit), I can tell you, even when the master were brand new, they didn't look like the cels/Kai. It all has to do with the amount of light used, and things shot on 16mm film in particular (compared to 35mm and 70mm) are not easy to get an exact match of what something looks like in the real world. While Kai's colors are graded in such a way to match the original cels with the master they had to go off of, the Dragon Box and Level Sets seem to be somewhat poor attempts to restore the original colors of the film itself; i.e, how the original broadcast looked.

This is actually something to consider even during the digital era; paint does not play well with it.

Regular scan; incorrect colors:

Spoiler:

What the colors actually look like IRL:

Spoiler:

I'm so glad you understand and shared an excellent example. People don't realize the cels can be:
1. Aged at least a decade, with the wedding cel being a good example of how aging changes the color
2. Scanned poorly in who knows what light conditions on who knows what device
3. Made in such a way to account for changes when converting to film. I'm sure most us have seen some kind of old cel anime in HD (maybe even 4K), and we all know they don't look like cels. It's clear that no animation would have the characters that much brighter than than the background.

[KPike87]

I'm so glad you understand and shared an excellent example. People don't realize the cels can be:
1. Aged at least a decade, with the wedding cel being a good example of how aging changes the color
2. Scanned poorly in who knows what light conditions on who knows what device
3. Made in such a way to account for changes when converting to film. I'm sure most us have seen some kind of old cel anime in HD (maybe even 4K), and we all know they don't look like cels. It's clear that no animation would have the characters that much brighter than than the background.

Agreed, those are all important things to keep in mind. Analog video is just damn tricky, and isn't always going to be a perfect science. Also thanks to my friend Vis for the example.

[jaisonas]

I'd just like to add to this conversation in support of Vanner, that all of those "cel scans"/ promotional material, was shot in 35mm film stock and it's not a proper digital cel scan. What you think as accurate colors may as well be something wrong itself considering the oversaturation and color differences between them.

[Lorium_O]

I'm so glad you understand and shared an excellent example. People don't realize the cels can be:
1. Aged at least a decade, with the wedding cel being a good example of how aging changes the color
2. Scanned poorly in who knows what light conditions on who knows what device
3. Made in such a way to account for changes when converting to film. I'm sure most us have seen some kind of old cel anime in HD (maybe even 4K), and we all know they don't look like cels. It's clear that no animation would have the characters that much brighter than than the background.

I like how this went from me trying to make a point to this crazy but short argument lol.

Point is original broadcast video is the final product, not cels. If you want to color-correct and/or remaster the dragon box to make it look like the real full intention, use the original fuji tv broadcast as reference. NOT cels.

16mm scans can look more stretched than cels, it's only natural. Especially if it was drawn and scanned with the intention of such action.

[Trachta10]

This makes no sense. It's like saying the intended color of the anime is black and white simply because it was shot in a black and white film.

The cels were shot on film, and as someone who's worked with 16mm color film in the past, it's a pretty fickle format (and honestly sort of a pain in the ass to get it just the way you want it). While I personally have no idea how DBZ was made in this specific regard, nor can I backup iKaos if it was the "intended" look (though the incorrect hair colors do back him up a bit), I can tell you, even when the master were brand new, they didn't look like the cels/Kai. It all has to do with the amount of light used, and things shot on 16mm film in particular (compared to 35mm and 70mm) are not easy to get an exact match of what something looks like in the real world. While Kai's colors are graded in such a way to match the original cels with the master they had to go off of, the Dragon Box and Level Sets seem to be somewhat poor attempts to restore the original colors of the film itself; i.e, how the original broadcast looked.

This is actually something to consider even during the digital era; paint does not play well with it.

Regular scan; incorrect colors:

Spoiler:

What the colors actually look like IRL:

Spoiler:

I'm so glad you understand and shared an excellent example. People don't realize the cels can be:
1. Aged at least a decade, with the wedding cel being a good example of how aging changes the color
2. Scanned poorly in who knows what light conditions on who knows what device
3. Made in such a way to account for changes when converting to film. I'm sure most us have seen some kind of old cel anime in HD (maybe even 4K), and we all know they don't look like cels. It's clear that no animation would have the characters that much brighter than than the background.

I don't think age can change the color of a cel, it is literally paint, and if it does, surely it does in a totally different way compared to a film/photography.

I think what you mean are those promotional HD scans that Toei usually share, and those are not recent scans, they are old analog scans and its colors deteriorated with the age, and is seems they were digitaly re-scaned again, that is why they look so bad.
Should never be taken as a reference.

You need to know where to look.
The best reference I have seen, the most homogeneous and with the best colors, are the ones available in the official Toei web site
https://lineup.toei-anim.co.jp/ja/tv/dragon/episode/
https://lineup.toei-anim.co.jp/ja/tv/dragonz/episode/


That idea, of the cels being made in such way to account for changes when converting to film It's something I've never heard before. And is probably not true

[Trachta10]

I'm so glad you understand and shared an excellent example. People don't realize the cels can be:
1. Aged at least a decade, with the wedding cel being a good example of how aging changes the color
2. Scanned poorly in who knows what light conditions on who knows what device
3. Made in such a way to account for changes when converting to film. I'm sure most us have seen some kind of old cel anime in HD (maybe even 4K), and we all know they don't look like cels. It's clear that no animation would have the characters that much brighter than than the background.

I like how this went from me trying to make a point to this crazy but short argument lol.

Point is original broadcast video is the final product, not cels. If you want to color-correct and/or remaster the dragon box to make it look like the real full intention, use the original fuji tv broadcast as reference. NOT cels.

16mm scans can look more stretched than cels, it's only natural. Especially if it was drawn and scanned with the intention of such action.

You need to understand that there isn't such thing as a "final product", there isn't such thing as a post production where the producers applied increible filters, and color effects and things like that to make the image look better.

It was just a poorly scaned cel transfered to film.

Why do you think when they made Kai, that is the best Dragon Ball Z ever looked, they tried to make the colors as similar as possible to the cels? because they knew that this is how the show should look, the true colors.

If you guys think a bad scan looks better than a good scan with accurate colors, then I don't know what to say sincerely. Lets go for that "film look", sure is easier to get.

Also, 16mm scans don't look more stretched than cels, they have the same proportion.

[Lorium_O]

You need to understand that there isn't such thing as a "final product", there isn't such thing as a post production where the producers applied increible filters, and color effects and things like that to make the image look better.

Ahem...

Here is a comparison between a sonic anime animation cel vs the footage.



I don't think Dragon Ball used analog effects, but even then, a lot of film to tape edited media will have lighting conditions shift per scene due to time crunch and/or different studios working on an episode. That's WITHOUT analog effects.

A certain someone explained it in his reply

Why do you think when they made Kai, that is the best Dragon Ball Z ever looked, they tried to make the colors as similar as possible to the cels? because they knew that this is how the show should look, the true colors.

If you actually somehow think kai is the "best Dragon ball Z has ever looked" then you are out of your mind.

If you guys think a bad scan looks better than a good scan with accurate colors, then I don't know what to say sincerely. Lets go for that "film look", sure is easier to get.

Also, 16mm scans don't look more stretched than cels, they have the same proportion.

16mm scans will have inaccurate colors no matter whether it's a "bad scan" or a "good scan". I mean if you caught up with Femboyfilms' og DB remaster you would know that. It's scanned using goddamn filmstock, not normal image scanning.

As for the stretching part, you're right, but it was still overscanned in the edges due to the intention of a 4:3 frame. The dragon box DVDs squashed it, due to the resolution that they put the video on.