Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

[ikaos]

Idk that is the best source I found, even so, it doesn't even matter because the original color of the cels are already know https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The original cel color are not fully accurate? What?

I think you really missed the current development of this thread because we do have the exact value of the cel color now. So this whole idea of "we don't have a good reference source so let's just stick to the closest we can get by combining various sources" can be retired. As the idea didn't make much sense anyway.

With known cel color, we can build the character model from the ground up using the color design sheet without actually having the cel, something like this:

You guys keep intentionally misunderstanding the point that I and others are making. Of course having the character sheets and the color charts can help you determine the actual cel colors. No one is saying otherwise and they are a great reference tool. But the point is that those cel colors do not represent the actual intention of what the colors should look like because the cels were designed with the knowledge that the colors would change once printed onto 16mm film. This is a fact not just of the animation process but also of shooting on film in general, where a cinematographer would choose particular film stock because of how it affects what colors look like. So in that regard the most "accurate" colors would be what the initial film prints looked like back in the 80s, which of course no one has access to. The notion that film prints are intentionally too dark on initial scan is also false and likely comes from the footage that has been shown of the Dragon Ball film scans, which are not only multi-generational film prints, but are also at least 20 years old and were stored in less than ideal conditions. I have seen raw scans of 16 and 35mm film that are much brighter than the Dragon Ball prints.

Again, I'm not saying we should only use the original broadcast or film scans as a source and I'm not saying that cels should be negated completely, in fact I would argue that the cels are probably the best source for figuring out the differences between colors, but to only use the cels as a source negates other aspects of filmmaking.

Beyond all of that, the Dragon Box simply does not have enough dark details to be able to use the cel colors alone as a base without introducing many artifacts. Our Vanner's group did do some tests and determined that while it is possible to make individual shots or even parts of scenes look like Kai colors, that kind of correction is untenable for anyone interested in actually fixing the show in the long run due to the aforementioned issues with the Dragon Box.

[Lorium_O]

The original cel color are not fully accurate? What?

I think you really missed the current development of this thread because we do have the exact value of the cel color now. So this whole idea of "we don't have a good reference source so let's just stick to the closest we can get by combining various sources" can be retired. As the idea didn't make much sense anyway.

With known cel color, we can build the character model from the ground up using the color design sheet without actually having the cel, something like this:

Spoiler:

Like I said, cels aren't the final product, their film scan is. Cels are colored with the knowledge that the saturation would decrease and the hue would be shifted due to color restrictions in 16mm film prints. They knew about those restrictions, and drew it in a way where the film prints will still be accurate to the original intent. Cels aren't the original intent! Pink skins and oversaturated namekians aren't the original intent! Kai's red gis and bad color casts aren't the original intent! Promotional images aren't the original intent! And you're right, neither are the original broadcasts the original intent! The REAL intent is what they WOULD HAVE drawn if it weren't for 16mm film scan limitations!

Knowing this, we can:
A. Use multiple different sources

OR

B. Use the cel colors as a reference just because "it's the most accurate", and have a result with more artifacts than the amount of people on this planet.


Anyone would choose A if they are going for an accurate color correction.

[lansing]

The original cel color are not fully accurate? What?

I think you really missed the current development of this thread because we do have the exact value of the cel color now. So this whole idea of "we don't have a good reference source so let's just stick to the closest we can get by combining various sources" can be retired. As the idea didn't make much sense anyway.

With known cel color, we can build the character model from the ground up using the color design sheet without actually having the cel, something like this:

Spoiler:

Like I said, cels aren't the final product, their film scan is.

Point is original broadcast video is the final product, not cels. If you want to color-correct and/or remaster the dragon box to make it look like the real full intention, use the original fuji tv broadcast as reference. NOT cels.

You just contradicted yourself from what you said earlier.

Cels are colored with the knowledge that the saturation would decrease and the hue would be shifted due to color restrictions in 16mm film prints. They knew about those restrictions, and drew it in a way where the film prints will still be accurate to the original intent.

You're just making up story now. If they really do had the film limitation in mind before choosing color, they would had make Vegeta's hair black instead of dark brown in the cel, since they came out to be black on film anyway.

Cels aren't the original intent! Pink skins and oversaturated namekians aren't the original intent! Kai's red gis and bad color casts aren't the original intent! Promotional images aren't the original intent! And you're right, neither are the original broadcasts the original intent! The REAL intent is what they WOULD HAVE drawn if it weren't for 16mm film scan limitations!

How are you still going hard with this story when there's a post just a few comments below yours' showing that Toei was attempting to match to cel color for another show in their blu-ray release?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1700#p1739767

B. Use the cel colors as a reference just because "it's the most accurate", and have a result with more artifacts than the amount of people on this planet.

Knowing what is the accurate color and achieving it are two different subjects. Your inability to achieve it now does not makes your other imaginary film-intended color you're attempting to the accurate color correction.

[RustyCreed]

"Accurate" can mean accurate to the intended colors which is what cels look like, and "accurate" can also mean accurate to what audiences saw on the original broadcast after the cels were printed onto film and copied a few times. Yes the latter isn't necessarily intentional, but it is the look that people first experienced. It also happens to be the more practical option when working with a compressed standard definition source that has an even smaller chroma resolution.

[lansing]

Idk that is the best source I found, even so, it doesn't even matter because the original color of the cels are already know https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The original cel color are not fully accurate? What?

I think you really missed the current development of this thread because we do have the exact value of the cel color now. So this whole idea of "we don't have a good reference source so let's just stick to the closest we can get by combining various sources" can be retired. As the idea didn't make much sense anyway.

With known cel color, we can build the character model from the ground up using the color design sheet without actually having the cel, something like this:

Spoiler:

You guys keep intentionally misunderstanding the point that I and others are making. Of course having the character sheets and the color charts can help you determine the actual cel colors. No one is saying otherwise and they are a great reference tool. But the point is that those cel colors do not represent the actual intention of what the colors should look like because the cels were designed with the knowledge that the colors would change once printed onto 16mm film. This is a fact not just of the animation process but also of shooting on film in general, where a cinematographer would choose particular film stock because of how it affects what colors look like. So in that regard the most "accurate" colors would be what the initial film prints looked like back in the 80s, which of course no one has access to. The notion that film prints are intentionally too dark on initial scan is also false and likely comes from the footage that has been shown of the Dragon Ball film scans, which are not only multi-generational film prints, but are also at least 20 years old and were stored in less than ideal conditions. I have seen raw scans of 16 and 35mm film that are much brighter than the Dragon Ball prints.

Again, I'm not saying we should only use the original broadcast or film scans as a source and I'm not saying that cels should be negated completely, in fact I would argue that the cels are probably the best source for figuring out the differences between colors, but to only use the cels as a source negates other aspects of filmmaking.

Beyond all of that, the Dragon Box simply does not have enough dark details to be able to use the cel colors alone as a base without introducing many artifacts. Our Vanner's group did do some tests and determined that while it is possible to make individual shots or even parts of scenes look like Kai colors, that kind of correction is untenable for anyone interested in actually fixing the show in the long run due to the aforementioned issues with the Dragon Box.

Well you better show me the fact that dragon ball z's initial film color was the intended color, not the cel because I don't see it.

[ikaos]

Idk that is the best source I found, even so, it doesn't even matter because the original color of the cels are already know https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The original cel color are not fully accurate? What?

I think you really missed the current development of this thread because we do have the exact value of the cel color now. So this whole idea of "we don't have a good reference source so let's just stick to the closest we can get by combining various sources" can be retired. As the idea didn't make much sense anyway.

With known cel color, we can build the character model from the ground up using the color design sheet without actually having the cel, something like this:

Spoiler:

You guys keep intentionally misunderstanding the point that I and others are making. Of course having the character sheets and the color charts can help you determine the actual cel colors. No one is saying otherwise and they are a great reference tool. But the point is that those cel colors do not represent the actual intention of what the colors should look like because the cels were designed with the knowledge that the colors would change once printed onto 16mm film. This is a fact not just of the animation process but also of shooting on film in general, where a cinematographer would choose particular film stock because of how it affects what colors look like. So in that regard the most "accurate" colors would be what the initial film prints looked like back in the 80s, which of course no one has access to. The notion that film prints are intentionally too dark on initial scan is also false and likely comes from the footage that has been shown of the Dragon Ball film scans, which are not only multi-generational film prints, but are also at least 20 years old and were stored in less than ideal conditions. I have seen raw scans of 16 and 35mm film that are much brighter than the Dragon Ball prints.

Again, I'm not saying we should only use the original broadcast or film scans as a source and I'm not saying that cels should be negated completely, in fact I would argue that the cels are probably the best source for figuring out the differences between colors, but to only use the cels as a source negates other aspects of filmmaking.

Beyond all of that, the Dragon Box simply does not have enough dark details to be able to use the cel colors alone as a base without introducing many artifacts. Our Vanner's group did do some tests and determined that while it is possible to make individual shots or even parts of scenes look like Kai colors, that kind of correction is untenable for anyone interested in actually fixing the show in the long run due to the aforementioned issues with the Dragon Box.

Well you better show me the fact that dragon ball z's initial film color was the intended color, not the cel because I don't see it.

I mean I said in the very next line that we can't know what the true intended colors for Dragon Ball were because we don't have access to the original film scans. There's not much else I can say since you're picking and choosing what to respond to and ignoring everything else so I'll just say good day and leave you to it.

[lansing]

You guys keep intentionally misunderstanding the point that I and others are making. Of course having the character sheets and the color charts can help you determine the actual cel colors. No one is saying otherwise and they are a great reference tool. But the point is that those cel colors do not represent the actual intention of what the colors should look like because the cels were designed with the knowledge that the colors would change once printed onto 16mm film. This is a fact not just of the animation process but also of shooting on film in general, where a cinematographer would choose particular film stock because of how it affects what colors look like. So in that regard the most "accurate" colors would be what the initial film prints looked like back in the 80s, which of course no one has access to. The notion that film prints are intentionally too dark on initial scan is also false and likely comes from the footage that has been shown of the Dragon Ball film scans, which are not only multi-generational film prints, but are also at least 20 years old and were stored in less than ideal conditions. I have seen raw scans of 16 and 35mm film that are much brighter than the Dragon Ball prints.

Again, I'm not saying we should only use the original broadcast or film scans as a source and I'm not saying that cels should be negated completely, in fact I would argue that the cels are probably the best source for figuring out the differences between colors, but to only use the cels as a source negates other aspects of filmmaking.

Beyond all of that, the Dragon Box simply does not have enough dark details to be able to use the cel colors alone as a base without introducing many artifacts. Our Vanner's group did do some tests and determined that while it is possible to make individual shots or even parts of scenes look like Kai colors, that kind of correction is untenable for anyone interested in actually fixing the show in the long run due to the aforementioned issues with the Dragon Box.

Well you better show me the fact that dragon ball z's initial film color was the intended color, not the cel because I don't see it.

I mean I said in the very next line that we can't know what the true intended colors for Dragon Ball were because we don't have access to the original film scans. There's not much else I can say since you're picking and choosing what to respond to and ignoring everything else so I'll just say good day and leave you to it.

So you came up with this idea of a phantom film-color that you claimed to be the original intended color by the animator over cel color but then you don't have anything to back it up?

[ikaos]

So you came up with this idea of a phantom film-color that you claimed to be the original intended color by the animator over cel color but then you don't have anything to back it up?

I am stating a fact about the nature of film stock and animation in general because I actually work in this field and understand how film works. If I am going to shoot something using film, then I'm going to select a film stock that has certain properties that will capture the color how I want it to be captured.

Here is an example from a random YouTube video of how different film stocks capture colors in different ways:



Animation works the same way, different film stocks will make the cels look different. Now once again, and I cannot stress this enough but I feel like I must, I have never said the cels, or more specifically the color reference charts, should not be used as a source, which is where I think the disconnect keeps coming from. The cel colors were chosen for a reason and definitely reflect a certain amount of artistic intention on behalf of the animators. My point is simply that they do not represent 100% of that intention. Now because Dragon Ball was produced for TV on the cheap, it's very unlikely that anyone was purposefully selecting film stocks to modify the cel colors in an artistic way, however that does not negate the affect that film has on the colors. This is where using a certain amount of information from other sources comes in handy, and why it's important to not negate things like promo images or broadcast colors. But again, again, these sources should be used to supplement, to inform, and to allow the color correctors to use logic to be able to make decisions regarding the color choices. Which again, is what our team did and continues to do for all 508 episodes, 17 movies, and various specials of the classic series. If you find our effort unsatisfactory, then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I will leave you with a correction just finished today, including the raw shot for comparison. This correction was accomplished after doing a shot by shot white balance, a global hue shift, and finally some curve adjustments to counteract the bleached nature of the source. A cross-sample of various cels were used as reference.

[jjgp1112]

You're just making up story now. If they really do had the film limitation in mind before choosing color, they would had make Vegeta's hair black instead of dark brown in the cel, since they came out to be black on film anyway.

Vegeta's hair only appears black because of the poor quality of the nth-generation film scans Funimation uses that make the colors too dark. In the Dragon box - while it isn't as noticable on first glance, Vegeta's hair is indeed a shade of dark brown. Try black balancing a Dragon Box screencap with Vegeta's hair as your source point - everything will be distorted, although if you use his eyes you'll get a standard result.

[lansing]

Animation works the same way, different film stocks will make the cels look different. Now once again, and I cannot stress this enough but I feel like I must, I have never said the cels, or more specifically the color reference charts, should not be used as a source, which is where I think the disconnect keeps coming from.

Yes you did:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1680

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

At first you denied cel color as an accurate source and claimed some imagery film-color is. But then you started backpedaling when you found out that we actually do have the accurate cel color chart.

The cel colors were chosen for a reason and definitely reflect a certain amount of artistic intention on behalf of the animators. My point is simply that they do not represent 100% of that intention. Now because Dragon Ball was produced for TV on the cheap, it's very unlikely that anyone was purposefully selecting film stocks to modify the cel colors in an artistic way, however that does not negate the affect that film has on the colors.

It's doesn't matter what effect the film property has on the color, the argument here is "how is the film-color you claimed to be the intended color", and you just admitted that it's not.

then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I did

[Lorium_O]

then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I did

well it looks terrible, thank you for ruining my eyesight.

[jjgp1112]

Animation works the same way, different film stocks will make the cels look different. Now once again, and I cannot stress this enough but I feel like I must, I have never said the cels, or more specifically the color reference charts, should not be used as a source, which is where I think the disconnect keeps coming from.

Yes you did:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1680

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

You might wanna read that post again, bubba..

I don't see what's so difficult for you to grasp here: they paint the cels with the expectation of how the film stock will alter it. You seem to be stumbling on how iKaos mentioned that they likely didn't select a specific stock to intentionally alter the colors for artistic purpose; while that's true, that doesn't change the fact that they know that alterations are unavoidable no matter what film stock they use. Both things can be true - they weren't shooting for drastic changes, but they knew a change was going to come either way. That's the nature of film stock.

(That's the problem I'm noticing with some of y'all - y'all want to play "gotcha!" on folks and catch them contradicting themselves when 90% of the time you're not reading them clearly enough and missing out on the nuance. I do it myself, but still!)

Like I mentioned before, even now when people are making things on the computer with intention of printing, they know that the printed product will look different from even a perfectly calibrated monitor since a monitor uses RGB while printers use a duller CMYK. The CMYK product is how they want it to look since that's what everybody else is going to see - so they'll use the RGB values that will successfully convert to those CMYK values (typically they'll use over-saturated RGB values)

In today's digital-first world people just work in CMYK from the jump since an RGB monitor can display/convert CMYK values with no problem, but with physical mediums like cels you don't have that advantage; so you have to use the "wrong" colors from the start.

And yeah, your example...is not very good. Unlike Lorium, I'll actually be constructive: the colors are way oversaturated and unbalanced (just look at the shadows on Goku's gi!), and there's obvious artifacting too - which goes back to ikaos' other point about the limitations of working with 480p footage and makes it RICH that you insinuated they're incapable of doing a "proper" cc.

[lansing]

I don't see what's so difficult for you to grasp here: they paint the cels with the expectation of how the film stock will alter it. You seem to be stumbling on how iKaos mentioned that they likely didn't select a specific stock to intentionally alter the colors for artistic purpose; while that's true, that doesn't change the fact that they know that alterations are unavoidable no matter what film stock they use. Both things can be true - they weren't shooting for drastic changes, but they knew a change was going to come either way. That's the nature of film stock.

Then that "unavoidable" color change on film would not be the intended color of the show, which is what this whole argument is all about.

To refresh your memory, while Trachta10 and I said that the cel color was the intended color of the show, he and his group argues that it was the film color that was intended, with the animators acknowledging the altered color through the film stock to be the intended color. But later he retracted and said that the animators most likely didn't have that in mind, which makes sense, I mean who in the world would go through every character model, filmed the cel just to see what their color looks like on film? And then possibly "fixed" them and repeating the process?

Like I mentioned before, even now when people are making things on the computer with intention of printing, they know that the printed product will look different from even a perfectly calibrated monitor since a monitor uses RGB while printers use a duller CMYK. The CMYK product is how they want it to look since that's what everybody else is going to see - so they'll use the RGB values that will successfully convert to those CMYK values (typically they'll use over-saturated RGB values)

In today's digital-first world people just work in CMYK from the jump since an RGB monitor can display/convert CMYK values with no problem, but with physical mediums like cels you don't have that advantage; so you have to use the "wrong" colors from the start.

In this case, your intended color is the original RGB image. The CMYK product is just a compromised output because of the limitation of the printer. The original RGB image is the one that you wanted people to see, not the CMYK print.

And yeah, your example...is not very good. Unlike Lorium, I'll actually be constructive: the colors are way oversaturated and unbalanced (just look at the shadows on Goku's gi!), and there's obvious artifacting too - which goes back to ikaos' other point about the limitations of working with 480p footage and makes it RICH that you insinuated they're incapable of doing a "proper" cc.

That "oversaturated and unbalanced" color IS the accurate cel color for Goku and Piccolo under the sRGB color space, it was not make up by me. That is what they actually looks like. The artifact was just an example of the challenges to be resolve along the way, which is not much big of a deal, not unfixable.

[ikaos]

Animation works the same way, different film stocks will make the cels look different. Now once again, and I cannot stress this enough but I feel like I must, I have never said the cels, or more specifically the color reference charts, should not be used as a source, which is where I think the disconnect keeps coming from.

Yes you did:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1680

At first you denied cel color as an accurate source and claimed some imagery film-color is. But then you started backpedaling when you found out that we actually do have the accurate cel color chart.

My guy

I know the DB fans don't read thing is a meme but I feel like it's true here.

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

This doesn't say what you think I'm saying. I have already elaborated on my original statement and you keep missing my intentions but I encourage you to use some critical thinking instead of just trying to "gotcha" me.

I can assure you our group has followed this thread and we knew all about the color charts and they were taken into account. I feel like I haven't needed to explain why the charts are not the end-all-be-all because someone already did that in this very thread back when you posted them. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1580#p1728614

What they say is correct, and we even discussed the same points in our Discord server when they were posted. I hope I don't require screenshots for you to believe me.

BUT AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED AT ALL.

then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I did

That's not a raw Dragon Box shot, it's a filtered upscale. Here, I will provide a raw shot for you.

Beyond that, the colors are far too bright for reasons I have already gone into, but that appears to already have been said by others. Those specific colors will also result in artifacts when using the actual DBOX as a base, which again has been pointed out before in the part of the thread I linked above. And you even admit yourself that the sky may not be correct due to a lack of a specific chart reference.

As I already said I would rather not keep going in circles as we've been doing. For anyone else reading, again please let us know if you want to see more examples of our corrections from specific shots of Dragon Ball.

[vanner64]

That "oversaturated and unbalanced" color IS the accurate cel color for Goku and Piccolo under the sRGB color space, it was not make up by me. That is what they actually looks like. The artifact was just an example of the challenges to be resolve along the way, which is not much big of a deal, not unfixable.

I've heard once that most internet arguments happen as a result of miscommunication. So Iansing, I'd like to hear something from you to maybe clear up this issue. Which of the follow methods would you say is the best/correct way for color correction (not for all media ever, just this specific show):

1. Strict adherence to the colors of cels found online.
2. Strict adherence to color charts.
3. A subjective combination of cels and color charts but nothing else.
4. A subjective combination of cels, color charts, promotional images, and original broadcast.
5. Some other method (please share what that would be if you say this one)

[jjgp1112]

In this case, your intended color is the original RGB image. The CMYK product is just a compromised output because of the limitation of the printer. The original RGB image is the one that you wanted people to see, not the CMYK print.

My guy, when you're putting out a product that's going to be consumed by people, you're going to make sure that what they're seeing is what you intend them to see. Which means that you tune the input so the output is displayed correctly. The "compromises" have already been accounted for. In my example, the CMYK is what the people are going to see - so that's the color they're aiming for. In a graphic design course, they will drill this home because the final product is the sole impression the audience is getting.

[lansing]

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

This doesn't say what you think I'm saying. I have already elaborated on my original statement and you keep missing my intentions but I encourage you to use some critical thinking instead of just trying to "gotcha" me.

The single problem I have is that you and your group kept saying that instead of original cel color, there was this imaginary film color that animators were aware of and used that was the original intended color of the show. And your elaboration implied that you didn't even believe in this. Do I get this wrong?

then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I did

That's not a raw Dragon Box shot, it's a filtered upscale. Here, I will provide a raw shot for you.

Spoiler:

Beyond that, the colors are far too bright for reasons I have already gone into, but that appears to already have been said by others. Those specific colors will also result in artifacts when using the actual DBOX as a base, which again has been pointed out before in the part of the thread I linked above. And you even admit yourself that the sky may not be correct due to a lack of a specific chart reference.

My only interest here is to show what an accurate cel color looks like as the show originally intended. I'm not here to discuss how to fix the artifact.

[jjgp1112]

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

This doesn't say what you think I'm saying. I have already elaborated on my original statement and you keep missing my intentions but I encourage you to use some critical thinking instead of just trying to "gotcha" me.

The single problem I have is that you and your group kept saying that instead of original cel color, there was this imaginary film color that animators were aware of and used that was the original intended color of the show. And your elaboration implied that you didn't even believe in this. Do I get this wrong?

I did

That's not a raw Dragon Box shot, it's a filtered upscale. Here, I will provide a raw shot for you.

Spoiler:

Beyond that, the colors are far too bright for reasons I have already gone into, but that appears to already have been said by others. Those specific colors will also result in artifacts when using the actual DBOX as a base, which again has been pointed out before in the part of the thread I linked above. And you even admit yourself that the sky may not be correct due to a lack of a specific chart reference.

My only interest here is to show what an accurate cel color looks like as the show originally intended. I'm not here to discuss how to fix the artifact.

WHere in his elaboration did he say he didn't believe this? He said he didn't think Toei was trying to find the best film stock to achieve a certain color.

But what we are we trying to say is that ALL film stock will alter colors, no matter what your artistic goal is.

Meaning, that Toei will keep this in mind. They're not using a particularly ambitious film stock, but they're using *a* film stock, meaning that they will tune the colors to the expected output. A standard damn procedure. All he did was point out the more ambitious uses of film stock as an easy way to demonstrate how artists are aware of how film stock enters into the equation - and now you're fixating on that because you keep trying to play "gotcha!" I mean holy crap, the very same sentence you're lasering on even establishes the nuance:

Now because Dragon Ball was produced for TV on the cheap, it's very unlikely that anyone was purposefully selecting film stocks to modify the cel colors in an artistic way, however that does not negate the affect that film has on the colors

Our entire damn point is that colors on the original film print were the intended final product and that the cels were painted in such a way to facilitate this. Since we don't have the original film prints, a combination of the cel colors (figuring out the values and such) and promotional material is the best way to figure out how the show was intended to look.

And your colors are still oversaturated.

[Grande Pesquisador]

Animation works the same way, different film stocks will make the cels look different. Now once again, and I cannot stress this enough but I feel like I must, I have never said the cels, or more specifically the color reference charts, should not be used as a source, which is where I think the disconnect keeps coming from.

Yes you did:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1680

At first you denied cel color as an accurate source and claimed some imagery film-color is. But then you started backpedaling when you found out that we actually do have the accurate cel color chart.

My guy

I know the DB fans don't read thing is a meme but I feel like it's true here.

the cels aren't how the show is intended to look...The cels are good as a reference, to see how the colors should relate to each other...

This doesn't say what you think I'm saying. I have already elaborated on my original statement and you keep missing my intentions but I encourage you to use some critical thinking instead of just trying to "gotcha" me.

I can assure you our group has followed this thread and we knew all about the color charts and they were taken into account. I feel like I haven't needed to explain why the charts are not the end-all-be-all because someone already did that in this very thread back when you posted them. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1580#p1728614

What they say is correct, and we even discussed the same points in our Discord server when they were posted. I hope I don't require screenshots for you to believe me.

BUT AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED AT ALL.

then by all means please show an example, using the color reference charts and raw Dragon Box footage, of how it should look in your eyes.

I did

That's not a raw Dragon Box shot, it's a filtered upscale. Here, I will provide a raw shot for you.

Beyond that, the colors are far too bright for reasons I have already gone into, but that appears to already have been said by others. Those specific colors will also result in artifacts when using the actual DBOX as a base, which again has been pointed out before in the part of the thread I linked above. And you even admit yourself that the sky may not be correct due to a lack of a specific chart reference.

As I already said I would rather not keep going in circles as we've been doing. For anyone else reading, again please let us know if you want to see more examples of our corrections from specific shots of Dragon Ball.

Is this the SoM group project? I've been looking for information about this for a while. I'd love to see more of what you've been up to and when it will be available.

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Is this the SoM group project? I've been looking for information about this for a while. I'd love to see more of what you've been up to and when it will be available.

Thanks appreciate it! My post saying that the original Dragon Ball show has been white balanced and we have a draft of color correction for all 153 episodes is really the most up-to-date news at this time. I'm not sure what the rules are for posting Discord invite links here, but you can find an invite link on any SoM releases. We often discuss smaller updates there.