Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

[Anonymous Friend]

Every story has a canon, established series of events that have occured. While I believe Toriyama was writing a lot of stuff as it happened, he wasn't carelessly writing things that contradicted previous written events.

Ah, the classic confusion of thinking "canonicity" and "continuity" to be the same thing. I thought I wouldn't find this confusion here, not after the last canon debate which it was explained in details the differences in meaning of these two different words, yet here we are again. Oh well... Get yourselves a dictionary, folks. You need it.

We use them interchangably becuase they pretty closely mean the same thing. And even if Toriyama or doesn't release an Official Book of Canon, doesn't mean the concept isn't present there.

[JulieYBM]

Canon was invented to sell more cameras canon.

I personally don't care about canon to a degree that a lack of it affects my enjoyment of any work of art. I'd a neat little thing for on the side but what I'm concerned most about is taking each piece (book, episode, comic chapter, film, video game, et cetera) on its own.

[Grimlock]

We use them interchangably becuase they pretty closely mean the same thing.

I know you do. I also know it's wrong to use them interchangeably. Please read it.

And even if Toriyama or doesn't release an Official Book of Canon, doesn't mean the concept isn't present there.

Is that so? Then by all means, please do show me the instances of the concept being present there.

[MasenkoHA]

I know you do. I also know it's wrong to use them interchangeably.

People also frequently use ironic to mean "a funny coincidence" which is by definition wrong.


People also frequently use "literally" when they just want to emphasize something often to be hyperbolic.


But most normal human beings understand what someone is saying when they say "Ironically my ex used to date my other ex" and "I'm literally going to kill you." (when they dont actually plan on killing that person) because as it turns out language is just a means to communicate. Words aren't bound by hard and unbreakable laws and can evolve based on use.


And Anonymous Friend is 100 percent right most fandoms, including Dragon Ball's, do use canon and continuity interchangeabley.

Is that so? Then by all means, please do show me the instances of the concept being present there.

I feel like I'm wasting my time here but its generally accepted things written by Toriyama are canon anything that isn't directly written by him is not.

The first Bardock tv special is considered non-canon because he didn't write it. The character Bardock is canon because he does show up in the manga.

Dragon Ball Minus IS the canon backstory for the end of planet Vegeta and how Goku arrived on earth because that' what Toriyama wrote.


And yeah we can get super pedantic and annoying and say "Well Toriyama designed such and such character from this movie and GT are they canon?" and that's a dumb argument because there's a distinct difference between Toriyama writing something for his story and Toriyama drawing something for Toei to use upon request for additional material for them to expand on.

And yes I know that puts Dragon Ball Super in a weird middle ground because Toriyama didn't actually write it.

[Anonymous Friend]

We use them interchangably becuase they pretty closely mean the same thing.

I know you do. I also know it's wrong to use them interchangeably. Please read it.

And even if Toriyama or doesn't release an Official Book of Canon, doesn't mean the concept isn't present there.

Is that so? Then by all means, please do show me the instances of the concept being present there.

How about you show me an instance of Toriyama says "F it!" And contradicting him because he doesn't care about any concept of canon.

[ikaos]

I feel like I'm wasting my time here but its generally accepted things written by Toriyama are canon anything that isn't directly written by him is not.

The first Bardock tv special is considered non-canon because he didn't write it. The character Bardock is canon because he does show up in the manga.

Dragon Ball Minus IS the canon backstory for the end of planet Vegeta and how Goku arrived on earth because that' what Toriyama wrote.


And yeah we can get super pedantic and annoying and say "Well Toriyama designed such and such character from this movie and GT are they canon?" and that's a dumb argument because there's a distinct difference between Toriyama writing something for his story and Toriyama drawing something for Toei to use upon request for additional material for them to expand on.

And yes I know that puts Dragon Ball Super in a weird middle ground because Toriyama didn't actually write it.

This should really be the only answer and it baffles me that people make things up that say otherwise. I've always felt that people either feel like they need something to be canon in order to care about it, or they are equating logical canon with their own personal head-canon.

[MasenkoHA]

[. I've always felt that people either feel like they need something to be canon in order to care about it, .

Mostly that, I think. That's why you get fans wanting Coola and Super Saiyan 4 to appear in Super or any feature films written by Toriyama as that somehow makes them more valid.


Or fans bending over backwards to explain how certain movies can fit or trying to force in GT and Super as part of the same timeline.

[Grimlock]

And Anonymous Friend is 100 percent right most fandoms, including Dragon Ball's, do use canon and continuity interchangeabley.

I know they are, that was made pretty clear to me since the last conversation. Still doesn't make it right, though.

I feel like I'm wasting my time here but its generally accepted things written by Toriyama are canon anything that isn't directly written by him is not.

Is it "generally accepted" by who? Says who? Is that something we all need to concede? If so, why?

The first Bardock tv special is considered non-canon because he didn't write it. The character Bardock is canon because he does show up in the manga.

Dragon Ball Minus IS the canon backstory for the end of planet Vegeta and how Goku arrived on earth because that' what Toriyama wrote.


And yeah we can get super pedantic and annoying and say "Well Toriyama designed such and such character from this movie and GT are they canon?" and that's a dumb argument because there's a distinct difference between Toriyama writing something for his story and Toriyama drawing something for Toei to use upon request for additional material for them to expand on.

So all that is required to be canonical is for the original author to write it? Then what happens after he retires or passes away?

Also, how does that applies to works set in Dragon Ball, like Dragon Ball Online and Neko Majin?

And yes I know that puts Dragon Ball Super in a weird middle ground because Toriyama didn't actually write it.

It's also one of the reasons why all of this is a complete waste of time. But the question still needs to be asked: is Dragon Ball Super canonical or not? It shouldn't be since, as you say, it wasn't written by Toriyama. But if it is, which continuity are we meant to consider and disregard the other two, movie, anime or manga?

How about you show me an instance of Toriyama says "F it!" And contradicting him because he doesn't care about any concept of canon.

But you are the one making a claim that something exists, I never said he said "fuck it". You're the one to provide an evidence.

Then again, pretty sure "retcons" are pretty much "fuck it! I don't care". So...

[Anonymous Friend]

How about you show me an instance of Toriyama says "F it!" And contradicting him because he doesn't care about any concept of canon.

But you are the one making a claim that something exists, I never said he said "fuck it". You're the one to provide an evidence.

Then again, pretty sure "retcons" are pretty much "fuck it! I don't care". So...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Yes, retcons are basically "F its". But hopefully you try to explain it away decently.

[Grimlock]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Correct. Which is why you ask for evidences when claims are "positive", that is to say, when something was actually said or done that we can see and touch for ourselves. You don't ask for evidences of the abstract, which in this case, would be Toriyama not saying what you asked for. The evidence of the abstract lies in the fact that we never saw it up until that point. In this case, Toriyama saying "fuck it". We have access to a lot of interviews and statements, not a single one of them has him saying "fuck it", so we must conclude, based on everything we have so far/up until this point, that he never said it, until proven otherwise. That's how it works.

I say there is no canon based on the fact that I have never seen Toriyama or Shueisha stating anything that I'm aware of, but if I'm wrong about it, then you must certainly have something I can see for myself. By the way, this is something I forgot to say in the last debate and I was forgetting to say it here: all discussions about canonicity can easily end as soon as someone post a statement of the supposed canon that Dragon Ball supposedly has.
Those who say there's a canon never provide a source (or when they try to, they get confused about "canonicity" and "continuity" and assume these words mean the same thing. Or they say a lot of things, but never providing something substantial. Or they don't say anything at all), so we are always going in circles with this.

Yes, retcons are basically "F its". But hopefully you try to explain it away decently.

Something Dragon Ball can barely do it.

[Anonymous Friend]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Correct. Which is why you ask for evidences when claims are "positive", that is to say, when something was actually said or done that we can see and touch for ourselves. You don't ask for evidences of the abstract, which in this case, would be Toriyama not saying what you asked for. The evidence of the abstract lies in the fact that we never saw it up until that point. In this case, Toriyama saying "fuck it". We have access to a lot of interviews and statements, not a single one of them has him saying "fuck it", so we must conclude, based on everything we have so far/up until this point, that he never said it, until proven otherwise. That's how it works.

I say there is no canon based on the fact that I have never seen Toriyama or Shueisha stating anything that I'm aware of, but if I'm wrong about it, then you must certainly have something I can see for myself. By the way, this is something I forgot to say in the last debate and I was forgetting to say it here: all discussions about canonicity can easily end as soon as someone post a statement of the supposed canon that Dragon Ball supposedly has.
Those who say there's a canon never provide a source (or when they try to, they get confused about "canonicity" and "continuity" and assume these words mean the same thing. Or they say a lot of things, but never providing something substantial. Or they don't say anything at all), so we are always going in circles with this.

Yes, retcons are basically "F its". But hopefully you try to explain it away decently.

Something Dragon Ball can barely do it.

Fandom assumes there is always a coanon even without te official comments. especially in the last couple decades when fact checking is so readily available by anyone with a camera and access to the internet. And in fact, fans have been doing the large majority of canon keeping for companies. I remember an article about some big game or movie/book series where the writer heavily refernced a fansite to make sure they were keeping things straight. Something from maybe fifteen years ago. It's even more now as breaking canon will get you a twitter/facebook filled with the fans calling you out on it.

Retcons do work differently in the sense that you are going out of yur way to inform why the previous thing was not true. It's the opposite of having Charles and Raven being a sort of adopted siblings or James and Victor being actual brothers.

In Dragon Ball, only only really aware one real retcon. That Piccolo being a demon. Somewhat else mentioned that they were and people killed by then are supposed to not actually move on i the afterlife. Most of the people killed by them that we care about were brought back to life. What was said about everyone else killed by them. Was there anything of note said about them?

And, what other retcons are you referring to Grimlock?

[VegettoEX]

A few points I'd like to add and/or address:

Someone asks what happened to Goku after GT and I start talking about Toybel AF, then the person says it's just fanfiction and I tell them that's not true because since there is no canon then everything is canon even if it's fanfiction.

This is... a mess of a point, but if you're saying:

(1) "Well if there's no canon I can just say AF is real!" -- In this case you're just being impressively and concertedly obtuse about the subject and purposefully going out of your way to be a little punk about it. You of course know this, because that's your entire point in saying such things. You're just trying to be a stinker about it.

(2) "Someone came to ME and told me that!" -- They're either pulling the same thing I just described in #1 above, or... well, no, they're just doing that same thing. They know what they're doing.

I really don't know how else to describe this situation without being so harsh about it with the above language. It's so frustratingly transparent, and this is coming from the guy who's pushed the "there is no canon!" agenda more than anyone else! (Seriously -- you can probably trace it back to me more than anyone else with this franchise.)

Why be/act this way? I don't get it. Can't we just be cool about things? Do we need more little stinkers running around being little stinkers just to stink up things?

And in fact, fans have been doing the large majority of canon keeping for companies. I remember an article about some big game or movie/book series where the writer heavily refernced a fansite to make sure they were keeping things straight. Something from maybe fifteen years ago.

"Keeping track of things that happened" isn't the same as rolling out an official story bible, canon declaration, etc.

Anyway, I do want to point out a couple other things:

Herms and I did an "updated" "canon" podcast episode back in November 2018, and it's still just as relevant and overall up-to-date as it was then. I actually recommend that those of you super-in-the-weeds about this subject check it out, as both he and I are coming at it from a fairly neutral position: we are about it, but really have no horse in the race.

It's episode 457 and the topic starts right round the two-minute mark: here's a direct link to the topic in the YouTube version.

And the only little update post-that-podcast-episode I'd add:

https://twitter.com/VegettoEX/status/11 ... 5050099712

[Alkiser]

It's funny that you think you know what I mean, you read my mind?

A stinker?
You have this habit of insulting random internet users?

I'm sorry that I have my own take on the subject, how can a worthless worm like me think differently than the mighty administrator Kanzenshuu. My logic is simple, if there is no canon that separates the main events from the side events (movie, OVA etc.) then why not also acknowledge fanfics following that logic? After all, I don't have a canon that would put everything in order.

[MasenkoHA]

In Dragon Ball, only only really aware one real retcon. That Piccolo being a demon.

Again not a retcon. He was still a demon.

Say it with me. Being an alien does not cancel out being a demon.

An actual honest to God example of a retcon is Future Trunks, in the manga, point blank telling Goku the Androids they need to worry about are 19 and 20. Then when he comes back he has never seen or heard of 19 and 20 before and informs the Z warriors the real Androids he was always talking about were 17 and 18.

There's debate if Goku being an alien counts as a retcon or not but what is a retcon is Roshi always knowing Goku was an alien.

I'd argue Dragon Ball Minus having Bardock and Gine send Goku to earth is also one. At the very least Raditz not even mentioning to Goku that it was their parents who sent him to earth seens odd.
.

Somewhat else mentioned that they were and people killed by then are supposed to not actually move on i the afterlife. Most of the people killed by them that we care about were brought back to life. What was said about everyone else killed by them. Was there anything of note said about them?

I feel like you're still not getting it

Karin informed Goku and Yajirobe ALL people killed by demons are not able to move on to the afterlife. This is what pushes Goku to go to Kami's Place to bring Shen Long back. Because the stakes are no longer "my best friend and mentor and everyone else was killed by Piccolo and his clan and Shen Long is dead that's sad." The stakes are now "Because Kuririn and the others were killed by demons their souls cant rest and they'll be miserable for all eternity so now I have to find a way to bring them back or they'll all suffer"

[Anonymous Friend]

In Dragon Ball, only only really aware one real retcon. That Piccolo being a demon.

Again not a retcon. He was still a demon.

Say it with me. Being an alien does not cancel out being a demon.

An actual honest to God example of a retcon is Future Trunks, in the manga, point blank telling Goku the Androids they need to worry about are 19 and 20. Then when he comes back he has never seen or heard of 19 and 20 before and informs the Z warriors the real Androids he was always talking about were 17 and 18.

There's debate if Goku being an alien counts as a retcon or not but what is a retcon is Roshi always knowing Goku was an alien.

I'd argue Dragon Ball Minus having Bardock and Gine send Goku to earth is also one. At the very least Raditz not even mentioning to Goku that it was their parents who sent him to earth seens odd.
.

Somewhat else mentioned that they were and people killed by then are supposed to not actually move on i the afterlife. Most of the people killed by them that we care about were brought back to life. What was said about everyone else killed by them. Was there anything of note said about them?

I feel like you're still not getting it

Karin informed Goku and Yajirobe ALL people killed by demons are not able to move on to the afterlife. This is what pushes Goku to go to Kami's Place to bring Shen Long back. Because the stakes are no longer "my best friend and mentor and everyone else was killed by Piccolo and his clan and Shen Long is dead that's sad." The stakes are now "Because Kuririn and the others were killed by demons their souls cant rest and they'll be miserable for all eternity so now I have to find a way to bring them back or they'll all suffer"

Besides movie henchman, Piccolo hasn't killed anyone. And no one mentions how those henchman can not be properly processed by the afterlife. Unless someone has said something regarding that, which is what I'm asking. And asked before. And no one here said anything. So, unless you have something from the series that either says, people killed by Piccolo have the demon effect applied to them. Or something that says they no longer do.

[MasenkoHA]

[

Besides movie henchman, Piccolo hasn't killed anyone. And no one mentions how those henchman can not be properly processed by the afterlife. Unless someone has said something regarding that, which is what I'm asking. And asked before. And no one here said anything. So, unless you have something from the series that either says, people killed by Piccolo have the demon effect applied to them. Or something that says they no longer do.

This has already been explained to you as well.


When Raditz was killed by Piccolo Junior, Kami notes to Mr.Popo that it was odd Raditz was able to cross over to the otherworld at all because normally those killed by demon clansman have their souls trapped between worlds (which again is what happened to Kuririn and the others when they were killed by Daimao and his sons before). The fact Raditz wasn't was Kami's first clue that this Piccolo isn't the same as Daimao incarnation before and is less evil.


But the series never backtracked and acted like Piccolo was never a demon just that he somehow lost his demon status after reincarnating from Daimao.

[Adamant]

...Anonymous Friend, you really should watch the actual series intead of a shitty rewritten dub if you're going to make these kinds of claims about what the series did and didn't say.

[VegettoEX]

It's funny that you think you know what I mean, you read my mind?

A stinker?
You have this habit of insulting random internet users?

I'm sorry that I have my own take on the subject, how can a worthless worm like me think differently than the mighty administrator Kanzenshuu. My logic is simple, if there is no canon that separates the main events from the side events (movie, OVA etc.) then why not also acknowledge fanfics following that logic? After all, I don't have a canon that would put everything in order.

You're totally right! I don't know you from a hole in the wall!

That said, as I outlined, "OK then fanfics are canon!" is a pretty clear and transparent "yeah well HOW ABOUT THIS?!" kind of non-answer. It's not really engaging in the conversation; it's just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

That said, if you legitimately believe that... woof, more power to you! March to your own drum beat. You're going to have a really difficult time having a conversation with anyone, though, exponentially more so than most others and the legitimately nuanced other questions coming up!

(What's particularly funny about entertaining that idea is that the term came into fashion specifically to separate an original author's works from the derivative works -- fanfics, if you will -- that came later: Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.)

[Alkiser]

I don't believe this and I gave it AF in the post as an example of why I think canon should be in every franchise. I'm a person who likes to have things sorted out, I want to know if it definitely happened, not guess by choosing between story version A, B or C.

[Grimlock]

Fandom assumes there is always a coanon even without te official comments.

Which is exactly why their assumptions will always be just that, merely assumptions with nothing to back them up.

And in fact, fans have been doing the large majority of canon keeping for companies.

And to that I say this, but unlike last time, I'll try to be loud but as clear as I can possibly be:

• Fans DO NOT get to decide what is canonical and what is not in a work that doesn't belong to them.

• Fans DO NOT have the right or authority to make such statement for someone else's work.

• Fans ARE NOT entitled to state anything about canon that isn't within the realm of opinion.

If these people want so badly to dictate what's canonical and what's not and make it a fact, then let them create their own work. They'll have full authority to do and to say whatever pleases them.

And, what other retcons are you referring to Grimlock?

I'll leave the answer for another thread/time. Seeing as this doesn't concern much the on-going conversation about canon.

My logic is simple, if there is no canon that separates the main events from the side events (movie, OVA etc.) then why not also acknowledge fanfics following that logic?

Your logic "may" be simple, but it is deeply flawed. You talk as if you're being forced to acknowledge fanfics. Like I already said but you, for some reason, elected to ignore it, it's entirely up to you to decide whether or not to take fanfics into consideration. It's a free choice, you are not obliged to acknowledge them if you don't want to, even without a canon.

Also, why would you want canon to "separate" the "main events" from "side events"?

I'm a person who likes to have things sorted out, I want to know if it definitely happened

You say you want to know "if it definitely happened" but then resorts to something that has never been never stated. You do see the contradiction here, right? You want to be told what to consider, but they have never told us that, and from the look of things, it doesn't seem they feel like telling us that. You want something that may never come, shouldn't this be a sign for you to let it go? To forget about it and go live a happy life?

You can still have things sorted out in your own "headcanon", no one will judge you for that or anything. We all have our "headcanon", after all.




Question to you all: Why would you want to be bound by such mundane rules? Why would you want to be locked in the "Shackles of Canon"? Is that any fun? You should want to be free, not stuck with such a crap concept that rarely benefits anything! I really don't understand this obsession with canon.