Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

[Soba Mask]

So King Piccolo never stood a change at OG DB...

Anyway... If this story would have been told in the OG series... I bet DB never would be as popular as it is now.

[Shorty GZ2]

Were it not for Toyotaro's input, there'd be no Bardock in this arc. Nothing inherently wrong with that in principle, but it's also not necessary, and its execution here retrospectively makes me wish it never happened.

Now, I don't feel having Bardock appear in the flashbacks is inherently bad. The problem comes with making him the Focus of those flashbacks and forming a direct link and comparison to Goku. That's where his inclusion went wrong. By making Bardock the focus and by making his actions Special in comparison to other Saiyans, it erases the entire concept of Goku, and even Bardock himself, as being seen as Low-Class warriors by Saiyan Society. Because if Bardock can do that against Gas and he's Low-Class, then why aren't Elites able to steamroll just about anybody short of Freeza himself?

That whole narrative of Saiyans evolving as they fight was never indicated throughout the series until we got to Broly, and he's an Anomaly among Saiyans. If that was really a thing and even Low-Class's could benefit from such a thing, then Saiyans should've easily been able to exploit this and been practically unstoppable. However, such growth isn't indicated until so far into the series that they're already Gods by the time it's even being expressed, if a small bit.

Y'know, we're talking about Bardock, right? Formerly impressively 10k PL Bardock, who farmed up to such a level of power by being constantly on the brink of death yet ultimately surviving/winning? And that basically what you're saying is pretty much why Freeza got shook enough to decide to kill the Saiyans?
And also:





Need I go on about the whole "SAIYANS HAVE NO LIMITS" stuff lmao (though ofc, the concept's been distorted by the franchise over time from "they get stronger after each battle (post-healing)" to being able to power up/adapt to the fight mid-battle)

[Yuji]

So King Piccolo never stood a change at OG DB...

Anyway... If this story would have been told in the OG series... I bet DB never would be as popular as it is now.

Goku was already prophesied by Baba to save the world against Piccolo Daimao.

I don't think this development changes anything. The wish clearly wore off by the time Raditz died and Goku was always meant to be special as a kid. He has no trouble against 90% of his opponents and the one major world threat that he struggles with, he was predestined to beat in-universe. It's when Goku becomes an adult and learns about his Saiyan heritage that he becomes a true underdog and we start to learn he's not as special as he seemed.

It's a very tacky writing decision but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't diminish anything because part 1 Goku was always special. It's part 2 turning that on its head that made the story interesting.

[Xeogran]

So where did Monaito find the power to heal both Goku and Vegeta at once now, thought his healing was supposed to be really weak

I think that's the real part we should be focusing on here

[OrangeBanana]

At this stage I am waiting for the next major revelation to be that Goku and Vegeta are the two direct descendants of the OG SSJG which explains their ability to master God powers so quickly, and it has been their fate since birth to be these two legendary fighters or some stupid stuff like that.

That's actually not a horrible idea if you attempt to insert the martial arts context of DB as Goku being representative of Yin and Vegeta representative of Yang respectively within that equation. Goku & Vegeta could be descended halves of the original SSJG who keep each other in a harmonious balance of growth, possibly offering an explanation as to why they obtain such a massive power boost whenever they fuse in comparison to most other fusions. If they weren't really anymore special than other Saiyans, why would Goku & Vegeta be so strong in the first place?
It's a bit fan-fic-y admittedly but it's far from the worst idea that they could come up with.

Goku and Vegeta are so strong due to sheer dedication, there is nothing in their blood to suggest otherwise. Hell, in the saiyan arc Goku tells Vegeta exactly that and that their potential to grow stronger is not something that can be determined by bloodline. Making them special descendants to explain their feats simply dilutes their efforts to a mere "oh they're just super special". This also goes against one of the major components of their rivalry back in Z, that being the Prince vs the lower class warrior thing.

[Shorty GZ2]

So where did Monaito find the power to heal both Goku and Vegeta at once now, thought his healing was supposed to be really weak

I think that's the real part we should be focusing on here

Been around 45 years after all, he got a bit better at it enough that he could prevent Granolah from dying lol
Though I'm not sure if he will manage to heal the Saiyans before Gas pops up

[Skar]

I think folks are ultimately disappointed because Goku not knowing or caring about his parents and his parents presumably being pieces of shit were two pieces of his character that made him stand out from every other battle Shounen protagonist out there.

As with several other writing decisions in modern Dragon Ball, this feels like a bad unconscious influence from Naruto/One Piece/modern Shounen at best, or a cynical attempt at capturing those audiences at worst.

That's a good point and the reason why I prefer the original depiction of Goku's family since there wasn't anything special about them. His brother and parents were typical ruthless Saiyans and he was sent to Earth to conquer it like any other low class Saiyan baby. The only thing that made Goku special was accidentally hitting his head and losing his memory but nothing unique about him before that point.

It's why I like to view sequels released years after a series has ended as a separate continuity. If it's not the original author, the studio could always decide to retcon something so I think that's the easiest way to look at it and have to worry about any future changes. This version of DB changed the reason Goku was sent to Earth and has Bardock making this wish but they don't exist within the pages of the original manga. If someone is reading or watching the original for the first time, all they'd know about Bardock is that he was among some Saiyans who stood up to Freeza right before Freeza destroyed the planet and nothing else worth mentioning about him back then.

[Soba Mask]

So where did Monaito find the power to heal both Goku and Vegeta at once now, thought his healing was supposed to be really weak

I think that's the real part we should be focusing on here

He most likely made a wish again. Or awesome story telling

[UpFromTheSkies]

So King Piccolo never stood a change at OG DB...

Anyway... If this story would have been told in the OG series... I bet DB never would be as popular as it is now.

I don't think the wish defeated Piccolo, but rather put Goku in the right places at the right times so he would be prepared to face Piccolo, like having him crash land in the backyard of a kind martial arts master, or find a random turtle that would lead him to Roshi.

[Koitsukai]

Whether the wish was granted or not, Monaito needs to explicitly say what he wished for. Specially if Goku's daddy saved Granola, and Granny's dad "saved" Goku.

About Monaito healing the saiyans, couldn't it be that he just gave them new clothes? I'm more interested in the why than the how, though.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Not related to any specific discussion here, but I follow the Brazilian Dragon Ball fandom, and I find it quite funny how different their perceptions are compared to the perceptions of DB's English fandom. I don't want to generalize because there is no consensus, but within this bubble many feel that Bardock's inclusion is the best thing about this arc, he is madly loved there. And a lot of them think Minus was beneficial for Bardock's character. And his wishisn't nearly as heatedly discussed as it is here or on Twitter. Like, the issues they have with this arc are so different that it feels like a different story is being discussed, so I'm kinda surprised everytime I see their discussions compared to the discussions here or in similar forums

I mean, obviously different people will have different opinions, I just find it really interesting to watch (especially when you're following both ''sides''). Curious to know how fans elsewhere see the developments of the story.

[YamiGoku]

Even if Goku was protected by the wish, he still got to were he is now by working his ass off, yes the wish may have protected him, but he was the one working to get always stronger, from the lowest of the lowest of power levels, even for a low class he was very weak, but now he is basically a God and he got there by his own merit.

even if the wish helped him to survive until he met Raddits, everything he accomplish after that was his own, some say the DBs put him on the right path, but after the wish ended, he kept getting a lot stronger, and he still was the same Goku that changes his enemies into friends, the one who achieves the legendary Super saiyan first in the series ,and the one that even the Gods admire.

I think the wish was clearly not the best idea, BUT, is still better than what many other famous shounen got when they decided to explain why the protagonist was so special, at least Goku's dad was not secretly a legendary super powerful saiyan, or at least Goku is not the reincarnation of a god, etc

[Cold Skin]

It is great that this better Bardack has been given more time in this arc. Minus Bardack has always been better in every single way, but he's even more so with this arc.

I also like the wish being made, so that Raditz and Goku have a chance to grow up fine: this is why Bardack had the unexplained urge to get him out of planet Vegeta, feeling "something gloomy impending" without being able to explain.
Although he's distrustful of Freeza and he finds it suspicious that the emperor has ordered to gather everyone, it's originally not enough to justify a hunch of "quick, let's send our son to another world as if this planet was doomed in the next few hours." Even Gine doesn't understand where he gets that weird, extreme hunch that something so bad could even happen.

This is also why the weakling known as Raditz - considered as weak even as an adult - was somehow allowed to go along with the prince at the right time when there would be no reason to embark a weak Saiyan on a mission along with Vegeta.
Even Bardack asks where he is and seems surprised that he's tagging along with the prince himself, probably not being treated easy because he's a nobody Saiyan in comparison to royalty.
The wish probably created the right circumstances for Raditz to be somehow tagging along on that mission, effectively assuring that he's away from the disaster.

I think this is mostly what the wish did rather than impacting their childhoods all along: it just created the right conditions for them to be taken away from the exploding planet so that they have a chance to grow up fine elsewhere. Probably didn't temper with the way their childhood was happening after they were set on a safe path.

Yes, that's right, we went from "of course those brothers both just happened to be among the handful of survivors just because of a mysterious panic-hunch on one side and a well-timed illogical tag-along with royalty on the other side" to "yes, there is an absolute good reason why things mysteriously seemed to unfold in the right way at the right time for both of them, and this reason is named Dragon Ball, the name of the story itself!"

Congrats on that, Goku and Raditz both get a great new layer added to their fates, just like Bardack's hunch being much more interesting now, like a greater force is mysteriously pushing him because that's the case in that instance!

[OLKv3]

Not related to any specific discussion here, but I follow the Brazilian Dragon Ball fandom, and I find it quite funny how different their perceptions are compared to the perceptions of DB's English fandom. I don't want to generalize because there is no consensus, but within this bubble many feel that Bardock's inclusion is the best thing about this arc, he is madly loved there. And a lot of them think Minus was beneficial for Bardock's character. And his wishisn't nearly as heatedly discussed as it is here or on Twitter. Like, the issues they have with this arc are so different that it feels like a different story is being discussed, so I'm kinda surprised everytime I see their discussions compared to the discussions here or in similar forums

I mean, obviously different people will have different opinions, I just find it really interesting to watch (especially when you're following both ''sides''). Curious to know how fans elsewhere see the developments of the story.

That is not a Brazilian thing, that's how most of the fanbase is. You forget these forums and many of your american friends on twitter are the hardcore fanbase, who are always more critical than the average fan. Bardock is included in the first place because he's incredibly popular. Him, Broly, Trunks, all popular characters

Search DBS on twitter or Bardock and you'll see a lot more praises from many nationalities

[TheSaiyanGod]

That is not a Brazilian thing, that's how most of the fanbase is. You forget these forums and many of your american friends on twitter are the hardcore fanbase, who are always more critical than the average fan. Bardock is included in the first place because he's incredibly popular. Him, Broly, Trunks, all popular characters

Search DBS on twitter or Bardock and you'll see a lot more praises from many nationalities

I didn't meant to say it's a Brazilian thing, I mentioned it because it was my experience with people from other nationalities following the series and having completely different opinions. But the fanbase I mentioned was also part of groups and pages dedicated to discuss specifically Dragon Ball, so although there's probably a lot of casual fans, there's also people willing to talk about the series more critically, which is why I said it was funny to see these discussions having completely different directions

[batistabus]

For those who dislike the implications of the wish, how do you feel about Goku fulfilling the prophecy of the legendary Super Saiyan?

How do you feel about Goku fulfilling the prophecy of the Super Saiyan God?

[PurestEvil]

For those who dislike the implications of the wish, how do you feel about Goku fulfilling the prophecy of the legendary Super Saiyan?

How do you feel about Goku fulfilling the prophecy of the Super Saiyan God?

Are you trying to equate Bardock's wish with predestination? Being protected from dangers from Bardock's wish is not the same as being prophesized to be the first SSJ/SSG. In the latter cases, Goku achieved them with his own agency and hard work (given that the wish does not apply in adulthood), whereas Goku "thrived" in his childhood probably due to Bardock's wish.

[Xeogran]

Being protected from dangers from Bardock's wish is not the same as being prophesized to be the first SSJ/SSG. In the latter cases, Goku achieved them with his own agency and hard work (given that the wish does not apply in adulthood), whereas Goku "thrived" in his childhood probably due to Bardock's wish.

But if Goku hasn't met Bulma and Krillin as a kid, he wouldn't get the opportunity to transform into Super Saiyan either. I can only hope this wish also didn't make all of his meetings "fated".

[Koitsukai]

It is great that this better Bardack has been given more time in this arc. Minus Bardack has always been better in every single way, but he's even more so with this arc.

I also like the wish being made, so that Raditz and Goku have a chance to grow up fine: this is why Bardack had the unexplained urge to get him out of planet Vegeta, feeling "something gloomy impending" without being able to explain.
Although he's distrustful of Freeza and he finds it suspicious that the emperor has ordered to gather everyone, it's originally not enough to justify a hunch of "quick, let's send our son to another world as if this planet was doomed in the next few hours." Even Gine doesn't understand where he gets that weird, extreme hunch that something so bad could even happen.

This is also why the weakling known as Raditz - considered as weak even as an adult - was somehow allowed to go along with the prince at the right time when there would be no reason to embark a weak Saiyan on a mission along with Vegeta.
Even Bardack asks where he is and seems surprised that he's tagging along with the prince himself, probably not being treated easy because he's a nobody Saiyan in comparison to royalty.
The wish probably created the right circumstances for Raditz to be somehow tagging along on that mission, effectively assuring that he's away from the disaster.

I think this is mostly what the wish did rather than impacting their childhoods all along: it just created the right conditions for them to be taken away from the exploding planet so that they have a chance to grow up fine elsewhere. Probably didn't temper with the way their childhood was happening after they were set on a safe path.

Yes, that's right, we went from "of course those brothers both just happened to be among the handful of survivors just because of a mysterious panic-hunch on one side and a well-timed illogical tag-along with royalty on the other side" to "yes, there is an absolute good reason why things mysteriously seemed to unfold in the right way at the right time for both of them, and this reason is named Dragon Ball, the name of the story itself!"

Congrats on that, Goku and Raditz both get a great new layer added to their fates, just like Bardack's hunch being much more interesting now, like a greater force is mysteriously pushing him because that's the case in that instance!

This is a really good angle. The context of Bardock and the saiyans is one of total doom, at least that's what he's been getting hints at. In his mind, the wish could've been to ensure his kids safety beyond whatever fate had in store for their race, be it now or in 5 years, and not actually making sure they go to college and marry a nice young woman.
The wish is vague enough, and not even worded by Bardock, but it could very well be there to help get the kids off planet safely, and nothing more.
Maybe Grampa Gohan adopting and raising him is also part of the wish, ending right there. No need for magic when you have a father figure to take care of you. Maybe for Raditz, it was getting hired by Freeza.

[batistabus]

Are you trying to equate Bardock's wish with predestination? Being protected from dangers from Bardock's wish is not the same as being prophesized to be the first SSJ/SSG. In the latter cases, Goku achieved them with his own agency and hard work (given that the wish does not apply in adulthood), whereas Goku "thrived" in his childhood probably due to Bardock's wish.

I'm trying to gauge what people think. All circumstances involve destiny Goku's destiny. I agree he worked hard to achieve those forms, and the fact that he was fated (since his arrival was foretold by Saiyan lore and the Oracle Fish) to be the Super Saiyan (God) doesn't diminish that. Like how Goku experienced struggles as a child and the fact that he was fated (with some intervention from the namesake of the series) to grow into an adult doesn't change that.