Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
They could just have Future Trunks ask the Zen-Ou to restore the timeline instead. Seems like a more simplistic approach and if need be one could give Trunks an arc towards achieving that goal, assuming the Zen-Ou wanted something in return.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Or they could have just went to the timeline in which Cell kills Trunks. It still exists, Bulma is still there, alone. Everyone would be happy.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Toriyama's notes must have been, "Things look bleak for the heroes... Something, something, something, Zeno comes and erases that timeline. The end."
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Isn't the reason Freeza gives up on immortality because he realized there fates worse than dying? If Zamasu came across a being stronger than him, that person would just beat and subdue him, even if he was unable to be killed. Or what about a being with more power than the dragon's wish?SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:51 am
The thing about Zamasu as a villain is that he is written to be unbeatable. He genuinely believes that he is doing the right, he is truly convinced of being the hero of his own story, so he can't be reasoned with like Piccolo, Vegeta, and the Androids. And he is Immortal, which means that he cannot be destroyed. Why would people think that a mere genkidama would be enough to destroy someone who CANNOT DIE?
Even in DBZ, the two main villains Vegeta and Frieza both wanted Immortality. It was already made clear in DBZ that such a wish would just make the villain unbeatable. Zamasu got that wish, and so by DBZ logic he would be unbeatable. A genkidama was never going to be enough to beat him.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
I mean, Frieza was traumatized by his experience in Hell, which he never would have gone through if he successfully became immortal in the first place. He then decides that growing taller by 5 cm is a better wish than LITERAL IMMORTALITY because ?????? the guy is clearly mentally stupid so I wouldn't think too much about what he says.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 7:44 pmIsn't the reason Freeza gives up on immortality because he realized there fates worse than dying? If Zamasu came across a being stronger than him, that person would just beat and subdue him, even if he was unable to be killed. Or what about a being with more power than the dragon's wish?SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:51 am
The thing about Zamasu as a villain is that he is written to be unbeatable. He genuinely believes that he is doing the right, he is truly convinced of being the hero of his own story, so he can't be reasoned with like Piccolo, Vegeta, and the Androids. And he is Immortal, which means that he cannot be destroyed. Why would people think that a mere genkidama would be enough to destroy someone who CANNOT DIE?
Even in DBZ, the two main villains Vegeta and Frieza both wanted Immortality. It was already made clear in DBZ that such a wish would just make the villain unbeatable. Zamasu got that wish, and so by DBZ logic he would be unbeatable. A genkidama was never going to be enough to beat him.
Since several lines of dialogue imply that Black and Zamasu killed all the mortals outside of Earth and that no one was left to oppose them (until Trunks called for help ofc), I'd say his wish for immortality was a major success. In the end it took Zeno himself to get rid of him, but Zeno is literally the King of All, so the fact that he had to get involved is a feat in itself. And sure, the Mafuba could have sealed Zamasu permanently, but there's really no reason why Black couldn't try to break him out anyway. Really, the only chance they had of beating the Immortal Zamasu at that point was with Zeno.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Wasn't Vegetto whooping Zamasu's ass and the only reason they stopped was because the fusion wore off? For people of that level of power, sure, immortality pretty much seals the deal. You're not really finding being significantly stronger than them. Freeza in the afterlife was basically immortal. If not interupted, he'd be there for eternity. And he only makes the decission after seeing SSGSS and them involved with Beerus. Then seeing that there's even more crazy powered people out there in other universes. He's smart to wait until he gets his power out there enough where, even if he's out powered, he can bide his time and win after wearing his opponent down. Right now there's too many out there than can just subdue him before that can happen.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 5:41 amI mean, Frieza was traumatized by his experience in Hell, which he never would have gone through if he successfully became immortal in the first place. He then decides that growing taller by 5 cm is a better wish than LITERAL IMMORTALITY because ?????? the guy is clearly mentally stupid so I wouldn't think too much about what he says.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 7:44 pmIsn't the reason Freeza gives up on immortality because he realized there fates worse than dying? If Zamasu came across a being stronger than him, that person would just beat and subdue him, even if he was unable to be killed. Or what about a being with more power than the dragon's wish?SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:51 am
The thing about Zamasu as a villain is that he is written to be unbeatable. He genuinely believes that he is doing the right, he is truly convinced of being the hero of his own story, so he can't be reasoned with like Piccolo, Vegeta, and the Androids. And he is Immortal, which means that he cannot be destroyed. Why would people think that a mere genkidama would be enough to destroy someone who CANNOT DIE?
Even in DBZ, the two main villains Vegeta and Frieza both wanted Immortality. It was already made clear in DBZ that such a wish would just make the villain unbeatable. Zamasu got that wish, and so by DBZ logic he would be unbeatable. A genkidama was never going to be enough to beat him.
Since several lines of dialogue imply that Black and Zamasu killed all the mortals outside of Earth and that no one was left to oppose them (until Trunks called for help ofc), I'd say his wish for immortality was a major success. In the end it took Zeno himself to get rid of him, but Zeno is literally the King of All, so the fact that he had to get involved is a feat in itself. And sure, the Mafuba could have sealed Zamasu permanently, but there's really no reason why Black couldn't try to break him out anyway. Really, the only chance they had of beating the Immortal Zamasu at that point was with Zeno.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Not in the anime.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:28 pm Wasn't Vegetto whooping Zamasu's ass and the only reason they stopped was because the fusion wore off?
Zamasu was shrugging off all the attacks Vegito was throwing at him. He effortlessly shrugged off his charged up Final Kamehameha. He instantly regenerated the damage he got from a punch that, according to Vegito, was meant to end him.
Plus we know that Zamasu would just turn Infinite anyway, Vegito was never going to win.
He'd be there for eternity like every other soul in the Multiverse, it doesn't really mean much.Freeza in the afterlife was basically immortal. If not interupted, he'd be there for eternity.
If he got his wish of immortality, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. The Namek arc is about stopping Frieza from getting his wish, because if he gets the wish of immortality, nobody can defeat him.
Zamasu actually got that wish, and so by hype he should indeed be unstoppable. Meaning that a simple Genkidama is not going to end him.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
still thinking they should have either canonized or hinted at Cronoa hiring Trunks at the end.
DBS Trunks becoming Time Patrol Trunks would have worked quite well thematically.
DBS Trunks becoming Time Patrol Trunks would have worked quite well thematically.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
If Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though? I think Freeza would have still been beaten. Especially since Goku did not kill him.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:40 pm
He'd be there for eternity like every other soul in the Multiverse, it doesn't really mean much.
If he got his wish of immortality, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. The Namek arc is about stopping Frieza from getting his wish, because if he gets the wish of immortality, nobody can defeat him.
Zamasu actually got that wish, and so by hype he should indeed be unstoppable. Meaning that a simple Genkidama is not going to end him.
Was Black and Zamasu's victories over the three saiyans solely due to imortality? It's been a while and I could just not be remembring, but were our boys just out powered? I do remember some kamikaze style tactics involved.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
The final Infinite Zamasu in both versions was solely an immortality win, yes. But the immortality is more of a winning factor in the manga after they fuse compared to the anime wherein the fused Zamasus' immortality is messed up & his overwhelming power is the main thing of concern.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 5:39 pmIf Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though? I think Freeza would have still been beaten. Especially since Goku did not kill him.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:40 pm
He'd be there for eternity like every other soul in the Multiverse, it doesn't really mean much.
If he got his wish of immortality, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. The Namek arc is about stopping Frieza from getting his wish, because if he gets the wish of immortality, nobody can defeat him.
Zamasu actually got that wish, and so by hype he should indeed be unstoppable. Meaning that a simple Genkidama is not going to end him.
Was Black and Zamasu's victories over the three saiyans solely due to imortality? It's been a while and I could just not be remembring, but were our boys just out powered? I do remember some kamikaze style tactics involved.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Literally the only time when they were truly, seriously backed against a corner was when Trunks/Goku used the Mafuba technique on Zamasu. The mere fact that a technique like the Mafuba existed was enough to scare them into ending the fight quickly and concisely by fusing. In the anime, they didn't even have a real reason to fuse, since Black was still stronger than Goku and Vegeta; it was a pure case of freaking out on their part. While in the manga, I will acknowledge that Black was not strong enough (at the moment, maybe he could have evolved Rosé) to beat Vegeta and Goku, but regardless that was the ONLY time they ever needed drastic measures to survive.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 5:39 pmIf Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though? I think Freeza would have still been beaten. Especially since Goku did not kill him.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:40 pm
He'd be there for eternity like every other soul in the Multiverse, it doesn't really mean much.
If he got his wish of immortality, he wouldn't have been there in the first place. The Namek arc is about stopping Frieza from getting his wish, because if he gets the wish of immortality, nobody can defeat him.
Zamasu actually got that wish, and so by hype he should indeed be unstoppable. Meaning that a simple Genkidama is not going to end him.
Was Black and Zamasu's victories over the three saiyans solely due to imortality? It's been a while and I could just not be remembring, but were our boys just out powered? I do remember some kamikaze style tactics involved.
Every other time? They were either on top, or purposefully getting overpowered as part of their strategy to get stronger via beat down (like they did when they made Goku salty about his dead counterpart and family).
It should also be noted that Trunks was genuine fodder at the start of the arc, to the point that, when Black didn't know that the Time Machine was being repaired, he clearly and explicitly stated that "no one was left in the Future to resist him". So, basically, Zamasu and Black indeed got rid of the opposition, and were keeping Trunks alive just to have a punching bag; but were planning to finish him off anyway. They could never have foreseen that Trunks' mother made enough fuel for a one way trip back to the past. They could never have foreseen that another timeline's Goku and Vegeta, who got much stronger, could get involved. And so you can't really blame them for any miscalculation.
Of course.f Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though?
Not only he would never get tired/exhausted (Future Zamasu/Fused Zamasu are never shown being fatigued, tired, exhausted), but he would also regenerate any damage taken. Remember when he got cut in half by his own attack? If he was immortal, he'd just regenerate that shit, like Fused Zamasu did:
Maybe Frieza wouldn't be stronger in the immediate moment; but, in the end, Goku the mortal would still get tired and pass out of exhaustion, while Frieza would never tire and any damage dealt against him would be healed back immediately.
Immortality is just THAT OP of a power.
Was Black and Zamasu's victories over the three saiyans solely due to imortality?
Their ultimate victory? Yes, it was thanks to immortality.
In the anime, Fused Zamasu was cleaved in half by Trunks and his body was completely disintegrated. But, thanks to his immortality, the core of his being remained, and took over the entire Future Multiverse, requiring Zeno himself to intervene.
In the manga, Fused Zamasu defused after a certain amount of time and the unfused Goku Black was stabbed and killed by Trunks. But, thanks to his immortality, Fused Zamasu never really defused and somehow merged himself back together, then evolved and spawned countless clones of himself across the entire timeline, requiring Zeno to intervene.
In the end, that wish of immortality that Future Zamasu made for himself secured total victory over the Saiyans. Only Zeno could end Zamasu at that point.
To be fair, even then, Zamasu could have oneshot everyone in 2 seconds. He was explicitly toying with them and having fun. But even when he was hit by multiple attacks, including a giant Father-Son Galick Gun that would pulverize most opponents, he didn't even have a single scratch on him. Vegeta even compared him to a "cockroach" because, no matter how many times he got nuked by ki blasts, he never even had a single scratch on him. If he wasn't playing with his food his immortality wouldn't have been damaged.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 5:34 am The final Infinite Zamasu in both versions was solely an immortality win, yes. But the immortality is more of a winning factor in the manga after they fuse compared to the anime wherein the fused Zamasus' immortality is messed up & his overwhelming power is the main thing of concern.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
That's the part I was missing. Immortality means infinite energy like the androids, and regen like Cell and Buu. I still have the question about overwhelming your immortal opponent. I'm pretty sure any fighter from the end of Buu Saga could easier defeat an immortal Raditz from the being of Z without coming any close to running out of energy. That sort of scenerio would not be written into a serious story, and used just as a gag.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 6:39 amOf course.f Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though?
Not only he would never get tired/exhausted (Future Zamasu/Fused Zamasu are never shown being fatigued, tired, exhausted), but he would also regenerate any damage taken. Remember when he got cut in half by his own attack? If he was immortal, he'd just regenerate that shit, like Fused Zamasu did:
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
I mean, your doubts are misplaced, since we know that Zamasu and Black indeed got rid of all the opposition... so evidently they could not be stopped, even by stronger mortals like Jiren and Broly.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 6:50 pmThat's the part I was missing. Immortality means infinite energy like the androids, and regen like Cell and Buu. I still have the question about overwhelming your immortal opponent. I'm pretty sure any fighter from the end of Buu Saga could easier defeat an immortal Raditz from the being of Z without coming any close to running out of energy. That sort of scenerio would not be written into a serious story, and used just as a gag.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 6:39 amOf course.f Freeza had gotten his wish, could he over power the Super Saiyan, though?
Not only he would never get tired/exhausted (Future Zamasu/Fused Zamasu are never shown being fatigued, tired, exhausted), but he would also regenerate any damage taken. Remember when he got cut in half by his own attack? If he was immortal, he'd just regenerate that shit, like Fused Zamasu did:
Besides, we see from the Sorbet and SSB Goku scene, that a much stronger fighter can easily get oneshot if they are careless and off-guard.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
The Super manga does it better but that's not really saying much. It was a ending that let me down.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
I appreciated/preferred the manga's attempts to mitigate the overwhelming downer-ness of the ending by having everyone already be dead prior to Infinite Zamasu (instead of him showing up and then killing everyone remaining) + adding in the time machine aspect to make it clear Zamasu's rampage would've spanned throughout all time/timelines than just the multiverse, & so placing more emphasis on the "well, at least we managed to stop Zamasu" aspect of it.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 9:13 am The Super manga does it better but that's not really saying much. It was a ending that let me down.
Nonetheless, I'd have preferred a slightly more clear-cut happier ending or at least with a little less wacky ass-pulling villain armour shenanigans - whether "despite his fusion damaging the immortality, the immortal soul remained and fused with the sky/universe" or "they're the same guy so they somehow fused on a cellular level forever despite the time limit & their immortality/regeneration via cell reproduction went out of control". I'd have taken the conflict ending via Trunks' Spirit Sword or him cutting Black/Zamasu's re-fusion attempts in half.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Yeah I agree. For me the thing that urked me the most was in dying he became stronger than ever. To the point he's able to just take over the universe and it requires Zeno to destroy everything even the angels to stop. Just... really felt outta nowhere and nonsensical.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:40 pmI appreciated/preferred the manga's attempts to mitigate the overwhelming downer-ness of the ending by having everyone already be dead prior to Infinite Zamasu (instead of him showing up and then killing everyone remaining) + adding in the time machine aspect to make it clear Zamasu's rampage would've spanned throughout all time/timelines than just the multiverse, & so placing more emphasis on the "well, at least we managed to stop Zamasu" aspect of it.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 9:13 am The Super manga does it better but that's not really saying much. It was a ending that let me down.
Nonetheless, I'd have preferred a slightly more clear-cut happier ending or at least with a little less wacky ass-pulling villain armour shenanigans - whether "despite his fusion damaging the immortality, the immortal soul remained and fused with the sky/universe" or "they're the same guy so they somehow fused on a cellular level forever despite the time limit & their immortality/regeneration via cell reproduction went out of control". I'd have taken the conflict ending via Trunks' Spirit Sword or him cutting Black/Zamasu's re-fusion attempts in half.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
This is shown in the anime too btw, where Infinite Zamasu's energy is seen influencing the Present timeline from the time gateway Trunks and Black travelled through earlier, with Beerus and Whis even noting with concern that Zamasu is affecting multiple timelines.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:40 pm Zamasu's rampage would've spanned throughout all time/timelines than just the multiverse
It's a pretty logical development actually.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 6:22 pm Yeah I agree. For me the thing that urked me the most was in dying he became stronger than ever. To the point he's able to just take over the universe and it requires Zeno to destroy everything even the angels to stop. Just... really felt outta nowhere and nonsensical.
Zamasu at that point was a soul without a body, a bodiless entity basically (he was immortal, so his "physical death" wouldn't send his immortal soul to the Afterlife) so he decided to take the fabric of the Cosmos as his "body".
It's meant to show just how twisted, arrogant, and ambitious he has become, to merge with the world itself, as well as attempting to become justice and order itself.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Yes, but I liked that it was more clear-cut in that the Zero Mortals Plan could be wide-spanning to all timelines rather than just the main timeline/"parallel worlds"/"the past" (as Beerus in the anime just noted) and that it called back to a previous piece of information in the manga.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 7:18 pmThis is shown in the anime too btw, where Infinite Zamasu's energy is seen influencing the Present timeline from the time gateway Trunks and Black travelled through earlier, with Beerus and Whis even noting with concern that Zamasu is affecting multiple timelines.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:40 pm Zamasu's rampage would've spanned throughout all time/timelines than just the multiverse
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
Well that's certainly one way to explain it and it does offer an explanation to something that confused me. I think I still do not care for it however your explanation is valid all the same.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 7:18 pmThis is shown in the anime too btw, where Infinite Zamasu's energy is seen influencing the Present timeline from the time gateway Trunks and Black travelled through earlier, with Beerus and Whis even noting with concern that Zamasu is affecting multiple timelines.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:40 pm Zamasu's rampage would've spanned throughout all time/timelines than just the multiverse
It's a pretty logical development actually.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 6:22 pm Yeah I agree. For me the thing that urked me the most was in dying he became stronger than ever. To the point he's able to just take over the universe and it requires Zeno to destroy everything even the angels to stop. Just... really felt outta nowhere and nonsensical.
Zamasu at that point was a soul without a body, a bodiless entity basically (he was immortal, so his "physical death" wouldn't send his immortal soul to the Afterlife) so he decided to take the fabric of the Cosmos as his "body".
It's meant to show just how twisted, arrogant, and ambitious he has become, to merge with the world itself, as well as attempting to become justice and order itself.
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Re: Does anyone know who wrote the horrible ending in the goku black arc?
For real; the ending of the Future Trunks arc is one of the most delightfully bonkers things in all of Super.Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 10:46 amErasing Trunks' timeline from existence is a safe ending ?
As with most times something weird and controversial has happened in Super, all signs point to it being Toriyama. In this case it's mostly an assumption based on both the manga and anime ending in similar ways (maintaining the same core beats), but it seems to be a safe one.