Why Goku Staying Dead is Much Deeper Than You Think

[TheUltimateVegito]

Goku thinking the earth is safter without him, which was the perfect culmination of Goku's adventures up to that point, and passing down the torch to his son who developed into a better protector both physically and mentally than Goku can ever be (Or as it seemed at the time), showed how wise Goku has become. His main reason for staying dead was because how much bad guy's he attracted that put danger to others. From Tao Pai Pai in the RRA arc, Tienshinhan/Shen, Piccolo, Saiyans, Frieza and finally to the Androids with the majority of them being global threats progressing to the Android and by Android saga there was a whole universe of possibilities due to the Saiyans and Frieza. The Androids were key and had the biggest impact on Goku because they were created solely to kill Goku (And did in alternate timelines), they couldn't be sensed, came from a secret lab on earth and spied on Goku for years. Goku's decision also satisfied his love for fighting, as the otherworld is full of powerful opponents who should be around Goku's strength. Although Goku won't see his friends and families grow and live out their lives, and will never return to the planet he loves, he was able to come up with an equilibrium between his desire to fight and his desire to protect the earth which showed a great deal of wisdom.

His pure Saiyan nature also held him back from telling his friends to stop him from allowing threats to pass. You could say he was trapped by his nature until he found his equilibrium.

The main theme of Dragon Ball which is "There's always someone stronger" relates to Goku's decision to stay dead, because he believes that he could potentially attract a stronger villain. This is genius writing that turns what defines Goku's character on its head.

Goku's decision to stay dead corresponds perfectly with the theme of taking responsibility of one's actions and the rewards that come with that was present in Goku's development during the RRA arc. He was rewarded a body in other world so he can train and fight for eternity for saving the earth numerous times. This also marked the growth and development of Goku coming full circle because the scale of the responsibility he took increased - from reviving a single man to defending the planet, with the rewards he received corresponding with his growth - From meeting his grandpa to spending eternity doing the thing he love with his mind at peace. It showed how selfless he's grown to be despite being unable to eliminate his selfish tendencies, as by him focusing entirely on the planet's future without expecting to die like he did, much like how he focused on reviving Bora without expecting to meet Grandpa Gohan. There's a great message there about putting your heart into the work or goodwill more than the expected rewards which corresponds with the themes surrounding Goku's mindset in his training

Goku believed his presence was creating real danger for those he loves hence why he decided to stay dead, which was him finding an equilibrium between his desire to fight vs his desire to protect the earth which he was only able to do by accepting himself like he did in the Saiyan arc. If he continued to celebrate what he is after King Kai told him in the Saiyan arc by being overly proud of the perks being a Saiyan provided, he would've ignored his limitations due to his proudness and ended up thinking he doesn't need to stay dead and can happily defend against any strong threats that shows up. If he continued to loath what he is after Radtiz told him he would've referred to himself only as an earthling and not own up to what he is which would've lead to him not thinking too much on his limitations by ignoring what being a Saiyans means for him, leading to him not thinking the earth is better off without him. Accepting himself like he did was the result of his purity that was strengthened throughout his arc, the purity that is the central point of who he is no matter how much it conflicts with his feelings. His pure desire to fight.



This is an extract from my Goku character analysis. You can read the analysis here:
viewtopic.php?t=33476#:~:text=Goku%20in ... 20promises.

[DragonBallFoodie]

That is one interpretation of it. And a valid one, too.

And most of what happened after this, with the exception of Uub as an apprentice, feels like the show's power celling issues were starting to affect the story IMO.

[PurestEvil]

Thank you for reposting this excerpt, that was a fascinating read.

[dva_raza]

passing down the torch to his son who developed into a better protector both physically and mentally than Goku can ever be

What? How exactly?

Gohan was terrible and Goku knows.
The most ineffective "hero" there has ever been especially mentally, I mean he was stronger than Goku and yet managed to lose against Cell 3 times. He had to be led by the hand through the whole thing until the very end, he just wouldn't stop fucking up.
This irresponsable attitude is reaffirmed later on when Vegeta lays out how he hasn't even been training.

finding an equilibrium between his desire to fight vs his desire to protect the earth which he was only able to do by accepting himself like he did in the Saiyan arc. If he continued to celebrate what he is after King Kai told him in the Saiyan arc by being overly proud of the perks being a Saiyan provided, he would've ignored his limitations due to his proudness and ended up thinking he doesn't need to stay dead and can happily defend against any strong threats that shows up. If he continued to loath what he is after Radtiz told him he would've referred to himself only as an earthling and not own up to what he is which would've lead to him not thinking too much on his limitations by ignoring what being a Saiyans means for him, leading to him not thinking the earth is better off without him.

I feel like this is reaching to be honest. What do you mean equilibrium? I don't recall Goku ever "loathing" himself, unless there is some manga context I'm missing.

He was firm with Raditz about not associating to them because he was shot with news. He didn't know what a "saiyan" is, he was like, nah wtf is that get outa here, I'm not like you. Once he meets Vegeta and is told a little more he wasn't conflicted at all about it considering, as he says himself, he was lucky to have been exiled.

[nhienphan2808]

It's deeper as in it's a weak decision. Not that it's wrong - there's no other way - but the reasons Goku provided is weak and moot. He essentially just stayed dead because he was influenced by Bulma's WRONG opinions. She slept with a bad guy ANd then blamed him for attracting bad guys ? Bulma is an idiot. Gohan is also an idiot and Goku, no less an idiot, paid for both his and Gohan's mistake, and thought maybe he stayed out of the way it would be better, which is also wrong because Gohan is NOT a fighter. DB is NOT a series where Gohan is a legacy character and better - and Goku was wrong to leave it to the kids. This is not to say they are useless, but Goku's love for fighting is NOT heroic enough for it to be this proud legacy. Whenever Goku says he fights for the Earth and people, he's either lying or too stupid to understand what that means, so "leaving it to the kids" is not that deep - it's a lie.

[WittyUsername]

The idea that Goku attracts bad guys is a fairly flimsy argument. Pilaf, the RRA and Piccolo Daimao all did bad things completely independent of Goku. It is true that Goku being on Earth attracted the Saiyans to the planet, but that’s only one example. Some might try to blame him for Freeza setting his sights on Earth, but Freeza was already a murderous space tyrant. If anything, Goku deserves credit for contributing to his downfall.

MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape pointed this out, but if there’s anything that Goku could’ve taken responsibility for, it was his decision to sit back and let Dr. Gero create his artificial humans. That would’ve made more sense, but it would’ve required Goku to express regret over his love of fighting, which has always been one of his core character traits.

In reality though, Goku choosing to stay dead was only done because Toriyama wanted to have a passing of the torch between him and Gohan, so he needed to come up with an excuse to keep Goku dead.

[Shorty GZ2]

The idea that Goku attracts bad guys is a fairly flimsy argument. Pilaf, the RRA and Piccolo Daimao all did bad things completely independent of Goku. It is true that Goku being on Earth attracted the Saiyans to the planet, but that’s only one example. Some might try to blame him for Freeza setting his sights on Earth, but Freeza was already a murderous space tyrant. If anything, Goku deserves credit for contributing to his downfall.

MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape pointed this out, but if there’s anything that Goku could’ve taken responsibility for, it was his decision to sit back and let Dr. Gero create his artificial humans. That would’ve made more sense, but it would’ve required Goku to express regret over his love of fighting, which has always been one of his core character traits.

In reality though, Goku choosing to stay dead was only done because Toriyama wanted to have a passing of the torch between him and Gohan, so he needed to come up with an excuse to keep Goku dead.

The reasons Goku offers to stay dead are indeed pretty flimsy, and he doesn't let in any attempts by anyone to sway/talk him out of it. Though this also depends on if one thinks that he's really telling the truth about wanting to keep the Earth safe, rather than him just whipping up an excuse to fight dudes in Other World (akin to the Z anime Tournament) once Earth was safe (in Gohan's hands at least) or there were no other non-dead/non-reformed strong enemies to seek revenge/give him a good fight until Boo (a maliciously-unrelated entity). An example opposing his supposed motivation is him wanting Vegeta to be let go so Vegeta could recover and return for a revenge fight when Goku would have gotten stronger. It's akin to a slightly less transparent version of him dipping on his family/friends on the spot in EOZ so he can train Oob to "protect the Earth", which Piccolo and Vegeta savvily suss out that it's really about wanting to raise him to be a strong guy for him to fight.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

In reality though, Goku choosing to stay dead was only done because Toriyama wanted to have a passing of the torch between him and Gohan, so he needed to come up with an excuse to keep Goku dead.

Then of course, this decision was reversed not long after on Toriyama's part because he realized fairly quickly that he just couldn't write Gohan in the protagonist role in Goku's place long term given his character. It's amazing how this was intended to be the final send off for Goku as a regular character with his son taking his role...only for that to then be completely turned on it's head once the Buu arc came along and it resulted in Toriyama giving up on that direction and ultimately returning Goku back to life once more.

[Majin Buu]

The reasons Goku offers to stay dead are indeed pretty flimsy, and he doesn't let in any attempts by anyone to sway/talk him out of it. Though this also depends on if one thinks that he's really telling the truth about wanting to keep the Earth safe, rather than him just whipping up an excuse to fight dudes in Other World (akin to the Z anime Tournament) once Earth was safe (in Gohan's hands at least) or there were no other non-dead/non-reformed strong enemies to seek revenge/give him a good fight until Boo (a maliciously-unrelated entity).

As a fan who's not invested in the idea of Goku being a flawless hero, this makes more sense for his character to me than something someone else said offscreen at some point that's easy to poke holes in.

But then, taking a statement someone else said and running with it without bothering to think about whether or not it's actually true is also in-character for him....

[MasenkoHA]

I just feel like Toriyama, at the time, felt like there was nowhere else to go with Goku as a character. Hence the awkward attempt to make Gohan the new lead.

He won the Number One Under the Heavens tournament! He got married and became a dad! He found out he was an alien, fulfilled an ancient prophecy and avenged his fallen race! Where else do you go from there?

I don't think it was a coincidence after Toriyama decided Gohan wasn't a suitable lead in a martial arts comic and Goku was put back in his place that Toriyama ended the manga then and there.

[Zephyr]

He won the Number One Under the Heavens tournament! He got married and became a dad! He found out he was an alien, fulfilled an ancient prophecy and avenged his fallen race! Where else do you go from there?

Become Number One In Heaven, and a Sennin!

My read of the Cell and Boo arcs is that Goku indeed stayed dead more as a means to fighting stronger guys in the afterlife than anything else, and was as excited to come back and fight Gohan (and later Vegeta) as he was because he had indeed reached the top of that realm as well. So while the anime more or less depicted Goku becoming Number One In Heaven, the manga might as well also be implying that he accomplished that.

The Cell arc shows Goku finally acting as a something of a martial arts master, training Gohan on two occasions, teaching him to become a Super Saiyan and adapt to it in the latter instance. But, as has been mentioned, Gohan's not really the greatest pupil. He wasn't thrilled that Goku ensured his opponent a clean bout, and needed his hand held throughout the match against Cell. He lacked Goku's utterly intoxicated fighting spirit.

So even before learning that Gohan slacked off for 7 years, it wasn't really clear that Goku was yet a successful martial arts master; he did not yet instill in someone an insatiable love for The Fight™ as Son Gohan (the first) and the Muten Roshi had for him. Gohan (the second) not picking up the one torch from him meant that Goku had not yet truly picked up the other torch from them. Oob accomplishes this well enough, as the reincarnation of the final and most powerful antagonist (who had shown an interest in fighting strong guys and testing his limits even prior to reincarnation), and has no apparently conflicting aspirations like becoming a scholar; he seems pretty stoked as they fly away in the story's ending.

With Super, you get the idea that there's still more advanced martial arts techniques for him to learn and master, prior to becoming a true martial arts master.

[Saiya6Cit]

I was a nice topic to read.

Personally I always thought (and I had mention this to some friends) Goku just enjoyed the life in the other world more than the life on earth, it was more exciting for him to meet new fighters from other universers than waiting on earth for someone to come and cause trouble.

Also it was like the bachelor lifestyle. When he was with roshi he would work, learn basic stuff and also training, when he was at kami temple the training was also very serious, when he was living with chichi he would have him doing stuff as well, it was until he was with King Kai that Goku started fooling around and I think he liked it, he enjoyed living with his friends more than with his family, period.

I don't think he was convinced Gohan could do it, but he knew there was also Vegeta.

by being overly proud of the perks being a Saiyan provided, he would've ignored his limitations due to his proudness and ended up thinking he doesn't need to stay dead and can happily defend against any strong threats that shows up

This is exactly what Vegeta did, tough XD

In reality though, Goku choosing to stay dead was only done because Toriyama wanted to have a passing of the torch between him and Gohan, so he needed to come up with an excuse to keep Goku dead.

that is very possible, also shonen is supposed to be for young males in japan, goku was starting to be an old fart instead of a young man so it makes sense.

I just feel like Toriyama, at the time, felt like there was nowhere else to go with Goku as a character. Hence the awkward attempt to make Gohan the new lead.

I think there are some interviews where he has been asked that before, but I think time I can't quote any specific statement. I might come back to this topic later with more.

[nhienphan2808]

The reasons Goku offers to stay dead are indeed pretty flimsy, and he doesn't let in any attempts by anyone to sway/talk him out of it. Though this also depends on if one thinks that he's really telling the truth about wanting to keep the Earth safe, rather than him just whipping up an excuse to fight dudes in Other World (akin to the Z anime Tournament) once Earth was safe (in Gohan's hands at least) or there were no other non-dead/non-reformed strong enemies to seek revenge/give him a good fight until Boo (a maliciously-unrelated entity).

As a fan who's not invested in the idea of Goku being a flawless hero, this makes more sense for his character to me than something someone else said offscreen at some point that's easy to poke holes in.

But then, taking a statement someone else said and running with it without bothering to think about whether or not it's actually true is also in-character for him....

I dont agree with the extreme take that he specifically chose to stay dead because he wanted to fight dudes in heaven either. Goku was always an in the moment guy who does what he thinks IN THAT MOMENT only, and his decisions are never willful and deliberated (say like Vegeta's) or out of any master plan. He more likely just provided filmsy reasons because he REALLY thought so in that moment, but in time spent in heavens he discovered he could have some fun with fighters up there, and change his goals. He's just a really carefree dude, and in another negative way of saying, kinda fickle and weak in long term plans. Not evil or avoidant in nature.

[Majin Buu]

I dont agree with the extreme take that he specifically chose to stay dead because he wanted to fight dudes in heaven either. Goku was always an in the moment guy who does what he thinks IN THAT MOMENT only, and his decisions are never willful and deliberated (say like Vegeta's) or out of any master plan. He more likely just provided filmsy reasons because he REALLY thought so in that moment, but in time spent in heavens he discovered he could have some fun with fighters up there, and change his goals. He's just a really carefree dude, and in another negative way of saying, kinda fickle and weak in long term plans. Not evil or avoidant in nature.

I never said he was evil, just flawed; and with him, the chance to fight strong people is always an underlying motivation.

But again, I'm not invested in the idea that he's a flawless hero so I don't mind him being wrong, making mistakes, or being a little selfish from time to time.

[nhienphan2808]

I dont agree with the extreme take that he specifically chose to stay dead because he wanted to fight dudes in heaven either. Goku was always an in the moment guy who does what he thinks IN THAT MOMENT only, and his decisions are never willful and deliberated (say like Vegeta's) or out of any master plan. He more likely just provided filmsy reasons because he REALLY thought so in that moment, but in time spent in heavens he discovered he could have some fun with fighters up there, and change his goals. He's just a really carefree dude, and in another negative way of saying, kinda fickle and weak in long term plans. Not evil or avoidant in nature.

I never said he was evil, just flawed; and with him, the chance to fight strong people is always an underlying motivation.

But again, I'm not invested in the idea that he's a flawless hero so I don't mind him being wrong, making mistakes, or being a little selfish from time to time.

I never said you said that just puting in my own cents.

[dva_raza]

Honestly I didn't feel there was a ‘motive’.. I always thought he just wanted to respect and not interfere with the natural order of things, which falls in line with the prominent and (sometimes annoying) trait of his of being 'fair', and what he said about training in heaven and avoiding attracting villains on earth kinda felt like just perks he mentioned.

[Saiya6Cit]

But again, I'm not invested in the idea that he's a flawless hero so I don't mind him being wrong, making mistakes, or being a little selfish from time to time.

well yeah we can say it feels more real.According to me Goku is not very smart, the hit on the head not only made him forget his mission also killed a few neurons along the way...

Have you considered that Goku never really felt comfortable on earth? I mean the guy is an alien.
Granpa gohan raised him like a pet more than as a boy. I still can't believe he never took him to a damn street market at least for him to see other people, I know he was afraid of him being agressive and such but maybe kid Goku lacked of the proper brain stimulation to get a full and healthy development.

Even Chichi knew it was better to live in the middle of the mountain than moving near the city, despite de fact she would struggle to get supplies from the city she would rather have that than trying to make Goku fit in. So maybe Goku was happier in the other world? and he is entitled to be happy, right?

[Koitsukai]

Goku is more of a "cool, whatever" type of guy when something changes. Loses his tail? ok. Cannot use Kintoun to travel the world? ok.
His decision, to me, was more in tune with that than ever. So, I died, again? ok. The flimsy excuses don't hold up much water, he is not the culprit, of course, and fighting strong guys might be something he longs more than just being at home.

The guy died and is told he'll go to heaven, his own version of heaven, to be fair, so even better. To me, he was at peace with everything, and Earth having Gohan, stronger than he was, also gives him some kind of relief as well. He doesn't have to come back like after Raditz, nobody depends on him. Gohan can take care of that, and he just can... you know, die, and let life run its natural course.

[Majin Buu]

I never said you said that just puting in my own cents.

Ah, my mistake then.

[Ashur]

I think that the narrative theme of him staying alive at the end was that he realized that he was wrong, as Majin Buu wasn't an enemy caused by him, and to show that he forgot Master Roshi's lesson that "there is always someone stronger", this also applied to the threats to Earth, there is always someone stronger out there that may need to be defeated "with a mighty blast".

Goku, after seeing Cell, someone that had to recycle the past to an absurd degree to become as strong as he is, from a recycled enemy, thought that there could be no enemy stronger than Cell, he had already seen it all, but then he got proved wrong with Buu, that's why he seems so impressed with him throughout the arc, even forming some sort of empathic bond with the fat version from the very beginning, and in the end giving him his respects as a fighter, that is also why in the Buu Arc he is preoccupied with setting up a stronger new generation for a possible new threat even after Buu, from Gotenks, to Ultimate Gohan, to finally Uub.

I also like that Uub also works for Goku's two main goals at once: to have someibe that satisfies his desire for fighting stronger opponents, and protecting the Earth, just like when he stays dead.

Now that he has Uub, someone with much higher potential than anyone else and after much training he would surpass Goku like Goku surpassed Roshi, he is tranquil in that aspect, but also excited to fight him again and again, to always test his own limits.

Personally i think the original DB manga's ending is the best ending for the character of Goku, i think we should get a series that delivers on the promise of an Uub that has surpassed Goku or that he is constantly rivaling him, proving that he is Goku's long-awaited satisfaction, instead of the failure that he was in GT.