Non-thread-worthy discussions

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, 17's wish was worded in a very vague and ambiguous way, although I can't tell if it was the writers being smart and doing that intentionally or if it was just a coincidence.

Following the ambiguous wording of that wish, then Zamasu and the Future multiverse should have been restored too, since they were universes that were "erased" by the Future Zeno.

I don't think the wording was ambiguous I just think you all are way over thinking it


Also Dragon Ball treats branched timelines and other universes as separate things. I doubt Future Trunks universe was restore because its just universe 7 in an alternate timeline

No we were making theories about it, why was that a bad thing? When the episode aired, plenty of people thought that the wish restored the 6 erased universes and/or Infinite Zamasu.

That nothing came out of it because the writers are uninspired and can't think of anything beyond "NEW STRONG GUY IN U7!!" doesn't mean that theorizing about it was wrong or overthinking it.

The Future multiverse would have been restored because the Dragon was taking Future Zeno's actions into account too, since that Zeno was also erasing things in the ToP arc. So, just like it would have taken Present Zeno's past actions into account (the 6 universes), it would have taken Future Zeno's too (Infinite Zamasu).

[Zephyr]

I don't think the wording was ambiguous I just think you all are way over thinking it

Feels less to me like over thinking, and more like wishful thinking. Similar to thinking that there's some forthcoming story about Goku and his friends visiting Universe 6.

Like Mr Baggins said in another thread:

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

The actual purpose of worldbuilding in the context of a story like Dragon Ball (ie: that of a man who wants to get stronger, and test that strength, because it's fun for him to do so) often goes over fans' heads. The world expands when the writers feel it's needed in order to give Goku new opponents to test himself against.

Maybe we will go visit Universe 6, or maybe the old universes will have been restored. Then a finger on the monkey's paw will curl and it'll simply be the pretext for more tournaments.

If a story doesn't involve a tournament, it sure involves Goku and his friends treating it like one, more often than not, much to the chagrin of many.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think the wording was ambiguous I just think you all are way over thinking it

Feels less to me like over thinking, and more like wishful thinking. Similar to thinking that there's some forthcoming story about Goku and his friends visiting Universe 6.

Like Mr Baggins said in another thread:

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

The actual purpose of worldbuilding in the context of a story like Dragon Ball (ie: that of a man who wants to get stronger, and test that strength, because it's fun for him to do so) often goes over fans' heads. The world expands when the writers feel it's needed in order to give Goku new opponents to test himself against.

Maybe we will go visit Universe 6, or maybe the old universes will have been restored. Then a finger on the monkey's paw will curl and it'll simply be the pretext for more tournaments.

If a story doesn't involve a tournament, it sure involves Goku and his friends treating it like one, more often than not, much to the chagrin of many.

It's not even wishful thinking though?

Wishful thinking would have been arguing the same if the wish had been "Restore all the universes that were erased in this tournament."

This is just logical thinking. This is the same universe where Sorbet asked the Dragon to revive Frieza, and the Dragon literally brought Frieza back in pieces. Anyone would have realized that Sorbet obviously meant to bring Frieza back to how he was BEFORE being cut in pieces by Trunks, but because the Dragon is pedantic and takes the wording seriously, Frieza was restored to how he was immediately before dying: in literal pieces.

So if the wish is "Please restore all the Universes that were erased", why is not logical to assume that ALL the universes that were ever erased in history would be restored?

[Skar]

So if the wish is "Please restore all the Universes that were erased", why is not logical to assume that ALL the universes that were ever erased in history would be restored?

It's definitely possible but we won't ever know for sure unless the story addresses it. They didn't bring up using the Super Dragonballs to wish back Trunks' timeline. It would difficult to gather them without Whis but they don't acknowledge it as a possibility so they might assume a wish could only affect their multiverse. It's been a few years since the ToP so probably someone would've noticed by now that the six erased universes or future timeline were restored.

[Grimlock]

I don't think the wording was ambiguous

I think it is. "Bring back (all) the Universes" and "bring back all the Universes erased in this tounament" are two very different things. But because we don't know what happened, it's ambiguous if all Universes were indeed brought back, including the other six ones.

I just think you all are way over thinking it

How? Dragon Ball already presented a situation where wording is important, not once, but twice (off the top of my head). How could that be "overthinking" it?

[MasenkoHA]

Re: The timeline thing. Dragon Ball distinguishes universes and alternate timelines as separate things.

Universe 6 and 7 are parallel universes. They have similar developments but they're not the same. There is no Goku and Vegeta in universe 6. The Saiyans exist but they're from Sandala and never evolved to have tails or turn Oozaru and Super Saiyan seems easier for them to obtain.

Future Trunks is from a separate timeline. One where Goten was never born. Goku died shortly after killing Freeza and Cold. The Z warriors were wiped out by the Androids etc. But its still universe 7. The Zenos erased that universe in that timeline but that would have zero bearing on 17 wishing for the erased universes in the main timeline because he made that wish in a timeline where universe 7 still exist

I don't think the wording was ambiguous I just think you all are way over thinking it

Feels less to me like over thinking, and more like wishful thinking. Similar to thinking that there's some forthcoming story about Goku and his friends visiting Universe 6.

This is probably a fairer assessment, true.



Mostly I don't think Dragon Ball Super was trying to trick or mislead the audience. It really doesn't matter if the universes wiped out pre-ToP were restored or not. It wasn't the point. They're not setting up Dragon Ball Gang and the Multiverse Travels story arc. It was just showing 17's altruism that he made a selfless wish instead of for his boat.

[Grimlock]

I probably should've said, I don't subscribe to Super Shenlong being able to affect other timelines idea. What may support that is the fact that Super Shenlong himself is affected by timelines, there's one for each reality. If he could grant wish that affect other timelines, then he shouldn't have counterparts, it would be pointless (maybe not convenient for those who want their wish granted, but who cares, right?).

My point is all about the other six Universes, which may (and should) matter eventually.

[ZeroNeonix]

I don't think the wording was ambiguous I just think you all are way over thinking it

Feels less to me like over thinking, and more like wishful thinking. Similar to thinking that there's some forthcoming story about Goku and his friends visiting Universe 6.

Like Mr Baggins said in another thread:

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

The actual purpose of worldbuilding in the context of a story like Dragon Ball (ie: that of a man who wants to get stronger, and test that strength, because it's fun for him to do so) often goes over fans' heads. The world expands when the writers feel it's needed in order to give Goku new opponents to test himself against.

Maybe we will go visit Universe 6, or maybe the old universes will have been restored. Then a finger on the monkey's paw will curl and it'll simply be the pretext for more tournaments.

If a story doesn't involve a tournament, it sure involves Goku and his friends treating it like one, more often than not, much to the chagrin of many.

This makes a depressing amount of sense. In the past, the plot at least made sense (for the most part), with one thing leading to the next in a logical way. But Super creates these expectations by dangling 11 alternate universes in front of us, and all they do with them is hold two multiverse tournaments. They have Vegeta express interest in Universe 6's Sadala, then never follow through with having him visit. Then by pure accident, it seems, they introduce a throwaway line about Zeno deleting 6 universes in a fit of rage one day in the past, then have #17 undo the damage in the Tournament of Power by wishing back all of the erased universes. Again, with no follow through. Toei continues the story with a Broly reboot, and Toyotaro does his own thing with Moro and Granola.

This is Super's biggest problem, I think. It builds up all these interesting plot threads, creating expectations they never had any intention of satisfying. I can't think of a single time the original Dragon Ball, or Z, or even GT ever did that. The closest thing I can think of is when Launch disappeared.

[Noah]

If DB ever chooses to explore the Multiverse concept in its core series, it could open up a range of so many possibilities, but I still would be afraid that it could be badly developed as well.

[Grimlock]

I've often wondered how DB would be handled if say the same collective of talent that turned the MCU into a well oiled blockbuster machine applied the same formula to it. Its not that the jobs are vacant its that they somehow refuse to give Iyoku and Hayashida their walking papers when they've constantly screwed up and have expended the goodwill Broly built up

DB Room team more than anything needs a serious roster change.there also needs to be a complete culture/status quo change but i think we are too far gone for such a thing. I wouldn’t wish this staff/team thats working on Superhero on any other manga series even niche small time ones that’s how bad it is. They don’t understand what it takes to make a good anime product in this era or any other tbh.

When I mention "Kevin Feige" is more about organization, vision and order than anything else.

One criticism I have seen that I agree is the lack of communication between the anime department and the manga department. And so we have the "same stories" but with different stuff because of disorganization first and foremost. The movies not making any kind of acknowledgement to one of these continuities is also a result of that. Even if it's intentional these differences, they should converse with each other, having things planned out from the start, with a clear vision ahead. But, to me, this doesn't seem to be the case, I don't think they converse at all. Toyotaro has no idea what Toei is doing, Toei has no idea what Toyotaro is doing, neither of them has any idea what Toriyama is doing, Toriyama has no idea whatsoever. It's a mess, a playground without order.

(I would still appreciate a "shared universe" and for some characters to get their own stuff, though. That and other Marvel things too).

DB worked because it was a (more-or-less) singular vision, I'd rather not have it at all than have it turned into bland corporate soup.

It already has. We have some developers and their games, Toyotaro and his manga, Toei and its anime, Toriyama and his movies (as well as "independent" entities like Ooishi Naho and that one who made the Yamcha manga, always forget the name). We already have multiple visions. Toriyama's singular vision was bound to end at one point anyway.

[dbgtFO]

I feel like the Buu Arc should have explored the magic concept further and made it a factor in fighting Buu efficiently.
DB up till this point had been all about having the power to hit harder, move faster and fire bigger ki blasts.
A change in formula would have been nice with an enemy that wasn't only strong, but also had abilities that wasn't entirely reliant on power.

Have the characters learn to fight this kind of foe and delve into these rarely used abilities, so this way "Mystic" Gohan could actually be a mystic of some sorts instead of being the usual punch harder kind of powerup.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Prior to the resurection F movie, Mark was the only character to never die in all of Dragon Ball.

Also his dog Bee was transported with Mr Satan.

A non talking character and less memorable but a character none the less.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

The mustache was ridiculous, but changing Vegeta haircut in GT was also unnecessary. Goku and Vegeta have such iconic hairstyles. They don't need to change to make them look older.

I liked the change of hairstyle, because it showed how Vegeta has been progressively adapting to a normal human lifestyle,

It's interesting to see change but it messes with the whole "A saiyan's hair doesn't change form birth" thing.

Obviously that likely doesn't include facial hair if it grows but head hair has always been the same. It's iconic and not needed to change and doing so sort of becomes a plot hole.

Vegeta's and Goku's hair has never changed. Trunks and Gohan's has due to being half I guess.

[Grimlock]

Also his dog Bee was transported with Mr Satan.

A non talking character and less memorable but a character none the less.

Didn't Bee died, shot by humans? I don't remember if it died and Majin Buu brought it back or if it was still alive and Majin Buu just healed it.

Anyway, Tarble (and his wife, and his wife's people) also never died. A lot of characters actually never died if we stop and think for a minute.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Also his dog Bee was transported with Mr Satan.

A non talking character and less memorable but a character none the less.

Didn't Bee died, shot by humans? I don't remember if it died and Majin Buu brought it back or if it was still alive and Majin Buu just healed it.

Anyway, Tarble (and his wife, and his wife's people) also never died. A lot of characters actually never died if we stop and think for a minute.

Shot by the sniper and then healed by Majin Buu. Then Satan and Bee had to run away because Buu was enraged to the point of steaming and splitting into his good self and the evil skinny Buu.

And Tarble and his wife were introduced after Z had finished.

From Ressurection of F may be a poor point on the original posters part, but generally speaking. The only person to survive all of Dragon Ball and Z in it's entirely without being dead or going to the other world. Is Mr. Satan. Which is a point people like to point out, since he's the most unlucky of people, but it all came down to luck I guess.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Yes, 17's wish was worded in a very vague and ambiguous way, although I can't tell if it was the writers being smart and doing that intentionally or if it was just a coincidence.

Following the ambiguous wording of that wish, then Zamasu and the Future multiverse should have been restored too, since they were universes that were "erased" by the Future Zeno.

I don't think that is what was in mind or planned. But they could in theory go down that route if they ever wanted. Just to pump out some more content.

Since it was worded in such a fashion and also the "Super Dragon Balls" are more powerful so there should be no time limit or limitations in theory. So all the previous erasures by zeno could also be counted if the wanted. But the "XXXXX" is back is a bit over done at this point.

[KorgDTR2000]

The mustache was ridiculous, but changing Vegeta haircut in GT was also unnecessary. Goku and Vegeta have such iconic hairstyles. They don't need to change to make them look older.

I liked the change of hairstyle, because it showed how Vegeta has been progressively adapting to a normal human lifestyle,

It's interesting to see change but it messes with the whole "A saiyan's hair doesn't change form birth" thing.

Obviously that likely doesn't include facial hair if it grows but head hair has always been the same. It's iconic and not needed to change and doing so sort of becomes a plot hole.

Vegeta's and Goku's hair has never changed. Trunks and Gohan's has due to being half I guess.

Their hair doesn't grow, there's nothing saying it can't be cut off.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Unless you turn Super Saiyan 3

Then it grows magically

[ZeroNeonix]

Unless you turn Super Saiyan 3

Then it grows magically

Obviously, the Super Saiyan transformations, which change the shape and length of a Saiyan's hair, are an exception to the rule. Even then, the growth is temporary, with the hair returning to normal upon powering down to base form. The way I interpret the idea of Saiyan hair never growing is that it has a maximum length. Once that length is reached, the hair no longer grows. If it is cut, it will grow back. Saiyans also grow facial hair, like Earth men, but it seems they prefer to keep it shaved, also like most Earth men.

[Grimlock]

Unless you turn Super Saiyan 3

Then it grows magically

Except if you are Nappa.



Though the beard grows instead.