Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

The Strength Checker has a few characters using the word "perhaps" and "maybe" but they've always been treated as fairly accurate measurement of strength because the author went out of their way to have the character say it. To be honest, this might be the first time I've seen someone use that in an attempt to refute one of those lines. The characters making these references are pretty skilled at sensing energy and the story would mention if they were wrong. All we get for Trunks is that his SSJ2 is above SSJ2 Gohan then the next form, SSJ3, is used as a comparison to his upgraded SSJ2.

Toriyama always used specific language to indicate certain things.

I agree this is the information we get. If we want to discern how Goku compares to Gohan i.e whether he's within the ballpark or simply much stronger, we would have to look elsewhere. Just like we would with Majin Vegeta to know how he exactly compares to Kid Gohan. I'm not sure what you mean by "the story would mention if they were wrong." The statement isn't invalidated even if Trunks was monumentally stronger than Gohan was.

[Skar]

I agree this is the information we get. If we want to discern how Goku compares to Gohan i.e whether he's within the ballpark or simply much stronger, we would have to look elsewhere. Just like we would with Majin Vegeta to know how he exactly compares to Kid Gohan. I'm not sure what you mean by "the story would mention if they were wrong." The statement isn't invalidated even if Trunks was monumentally stronger than Gohan was.

The difference is we have other direct statements for Vegeta's power. Vegeta confirmed SSJ2 Goku was stronger than Gohan and later Goku confirms him and Vegeta were even in SSJ2. Those arguing SSJ2 Trunks is astronomically stronger than Gohan or possibly stronger than him in a lower form is based on their own personal interpretation of other evidence. I don't have a solid opinion on most of those and open to more than one possibility. I still think what Toyotaro was trying to convey was that SSJ2 Trunks could've been in ballpark of SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta since another benchmark above Gohan was only used once Trunks powered-up to his upgraded SSJ2.

[Goku9001]

I agree this is the information we get. If we want to discern how Goku compares to Gohan i.e whether he's within the ballpark or simply much stronger, we would have to look elsewhere. Just like we would with Majin Vegeta to know how he exactly compares to Kid Gohan. I'm not sure what you mean by "the story would mention if they were wrong." The statement isn't invalidated even if Trunks was monumentally stronger than Gohan was.

The difference is we have other direct statements for Vegeta's power. Vegeta confirmed SSJ2 Goku was stronger than Gohan and later Goku confirms him and Vegeta were even in SSJ2. Those arguing SSJ2 Trunks is astronomically stronger than Gohan or possibly stronger than him in a lower form is based on their own personal interpretation of other evidence. I don't have a solid opinion on most of those and open to more than one possibility. I still think what Toyotaro was trying to convey was that SSJ2 Trunks could've been in ballpark of SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta since another benchmark above Gohan was only used once Trunks powered-up to his upgraded SSJ2.

That's fair. I'm just weighing the statement against all of the evidence we've been given to conclude that this isn't what Toyotaro had meant. And, I don't see anything wrong with this since the series requires you to refer to past events to make sense of current ones. Beerus' comparison between SSJ2 Goku and Frieza absolutely doesn't make sense unless you understand past material.

I'm not seeing the connection here. Even if Goku never compared Trunks to Gohan, a comparison between Powered-Up Trunks and Goku would still be necessary since it's absolutely necessary to establish how powerful Goku Black is. The comparison between Gohan is not. The statement is simply glossed over whereas Vegeta and Goku's reaction are emphasized which is telling on how Toyotaro views the significance of these statements.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the argument you are proposing definitely suggests that he isn't so far above Kid Buu as a Super Saiyan at this point in time, which I can agree with.

Far from that. I’m suggesting Super Saiyan Goku is still much weaker than Kid Boo, as Goku doesn’t accomplish nothing in his mental exercise.

If there were any issues, we would've received changes as was the case with Battle of Gods. Otherwise, this is just confusing for the reader.

I think it’s worth pointing out that the three continuities aren’t supposed to be read as one thing. Anime powerscalling is confusing in its own regard, for that matter. This is not to say you should consider one in favor of the other, you are free to choose which continuity has the most appeal to you. But for strength discussion, manga content is generally preferred.

The DBS Broly movie explicitly honored both continuities to accommodate for the manga. I'm certain Super Hero will establish its own changes but if Toyotaro merely references the movie with nothing else to go by, I don't see why you wouldn't adhere to it regardless of the changes being made.

DBS Broly didn’t accommodate the manga’s power structure, because Super Saiyan Blue works differently, and on top of that Goku doesn’t use Kaioken and Ultra Instinct, so it doesn’t accommodate the anime either. The movie has its own version of the story.

DBS Super Hero ignores Gohan’s progression in the manga, he is not supposed to be using Super Saiyan anymore, and ignores that Goku and Vegeta had already reached their ultra forms. It implies Vegeta is still Whis’ student, and so on.

If Toyotaro doesn’t adapt the movies, he is still telling his own story. Again, you are not supposed to read them as one thing, so there aren’t “changes”. Changes is what we see when there are reboots.

Nah, it was just a joke in light of Mr. Baggin's comment. I do enjoy making tier lists for specific arcs where I scale characters around a reference point, but I only do that for my own entertainment and never as a means to understand what the author was intending on. Because at the end of the day, I definitely agree that the authors aren't worried about precisely calculating battle powers.

It’s all good.

[Skar]

I'm not seeing the connection here. Even if Goku never compared Trunks to Gohan, a comparison between Powered-Up Trunks and Goku would still be necessary since it's absolutely necessary to establish how powerful Goku Black is. The comparison between Gohan is not. The statement is simply glossed over whereas Vegeta and Goku's reaction are emphasized which is telling on how Toyotaro views the significance of these statements.

I really doubt Toyotaro intended for us to measure the accuracy of these statements by how much of a reaction they get. It's fairly obvious a SSJ2 coming close to any version of SSJ3 would be more impressive to the other characters than a SSJ2 surpassing another SSJ2. I consider it from the perspective of the audience this was written for. They see a comparison to a SSJ2 then a comparison to a SSJ3 after Trunks powers up again.

How much stronger SSJ3 Goku is since the Buu saga is up to personal interpretation. Based on the many years fans have been discussing it, I think it's clear we don't have an accurate measurement other than him being stronger than before. Toriyama thought it was worth mentioning when they surpassed the last benchmark of SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu saga. I'm fine with him surpassing Gotenks and Gohan in BoG if that's what they intended to convey but only direct statement we get is for his base compared to Freeza.

[Mr Baggins]

I've said everything I needed to here - it's uber clear that SS2+ (exclusively) in that arc is what's surpassing Gohan, whether you look at prior evidence or just take Goku's dialogue on its own - so I won't be repeating all that. But just to clarify something about the movies:

I think you can reasonably infer that DBS Broly accommodates both continuities; I'd actually go even further and argue that it accommodates the manga more than the anime, given the bits about Freeza needing Metamoran Fusion explained to him, Goku not knowing the meaning of a word he used freely in the TV adaptation, and Goku sometimes using an aura with Blue even currently in the manga. You'd only run into some real errors if you're viewing it as a continuation of the anime, but what else is new?

However, that's Dragon Ball Super Broly. "DBS". "Super". It's not using the Z branding of Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F', nor is it following what those two movies established about the God forms. Nor is the manga. Nobody should be disputing that they were fundamentally changed, regardless of all the hiccups caused by the anime flip-flopping with its own power structure, so they can't be taken as a serious indication of anything since the mechanics of the manga, once again, would dictate the details themselves having to play out differently. It's not rocket science.

That's all I'll say about that. It's silly to me that this is still going on all because of a willfully obtuse refusal to interpret the manga on its own merits, on top of it just being in line with the original manga.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The difference between the Super and Z brands always hit me as a mere marketing difference. Super’s retellings of BoGs is hardly any different from the DBZ movie.

But if we’re taking the movies as outdated based on label, then the unseen events of RoF must mirror that of the anime (besides the Ginyu-Tagoma stuff), which makes sense since the RoF anime was airing right after the manga finished BoGs. The anime puts a much bigger emphasis on Goku and Vegeta’s training under Whis as a reason for them fighting Freeza rather than “Saiyan Beyond God” (which never even existed in the series).

So there’s no running from it I guess. The only way to have it both ways is if SSJ multipliers are all bullshit and SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku > Base Goku > SSJ RoF Gohan, something I’m not totally against given what Toyotaro does with SSJ2 Vegeta.

[Skar]

So there’s no running from it I guess. The only way to have it both ways is if SSJ multipliers are all bullshit and SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku > Base Goku > SSJ RoF Gohan, something I’m not totally against given what Toyotaro does with SSJ2 Vegeta.

I always thought they never had multipliers in mind when writing the story. They convey that each form is a noticeable boost but that might be it. I think most multipliers were only in the SEG and never reprinted in a later guidebook so they might not care too much about them.

In terms of the updated RoF for the manga, all we have is Goku using SSJ1 against Frost in both versions of the Champa arc. I'm not sure if anything implies 4th form Frost is above 4th form Freeza in RoF. If Goku needed SSJ1 to overpower Frost, he likely needed SSJ or a stronger form in RoF to fight Freeza before he went Gold.

[Yuji]

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

[Mr Baggins]

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him?

I have him somewhere in Super Saiyan tier. During the US arc, he's able to fight somewhat evenly with Caulifla and isn't surprised much by her power until she fires her not-Kamehameha, which was enough to prompt his next form. As Skar said above, I think it's likely that Goku would have at least needed Super Saiyan to contend with Final Form Freeza.

I think he's somewhere above manga Piccolo, but a little below (at least most of) the Super Saiyans participating in the tournament. Like Frost.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

I completely agree the manga isn't perfect. The senzu part is an error that immediately comes to mind for me as well; the point of that scene is that Vegeta is no longer able to take advantage of near-death power boosts, but I don't think Toyotaro was thinking about the other implications pertaining to Black's level when he wrote it. Authors are not infallible.

With that said, the manga is generally consistent and clear about where characters stand in relation to each other. There are things in the anime that flat-out can't be reconciled unless you pretend that some parts of it adhere to a different power structure than other parts, especially in the Tournament of Power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So there’s no running from it I guess. The only way to have it both ways is if SSJ multipliers are all bullshit and SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ Goku > Base Goku > SSJ RoF Gohan, something I’m not totally against given what Toyotaro does with SSJ2 Vegeta.

I always thought they never had multipliers in mind when writing the story. They convey that each form is a noticeable boost but that might be it. I think most multipliers were only in the SEG and never reprinted in a later guidebook so they might not care too much about them.

In terms of the updated RoF for the manga, all we have is Goku using SSJ1 against Frost in both versions of the Champa arc. I'm not sure if anything implies 4th form Frost is above 4th form Freeza in RoF. If Goku needed SSJ1 to overpower Frost, he likely needed SSJ or a stronger form in RoF to fight Freeza before he went Gold.

I agree. Toriyama did say he imagined a 10x boost, so I think he definitely had a vague idea of “If SSJ form gets much stronger then so does Base”, but nothing specific. The SEG multipliers are more of a generalization of how it works, but it’s a pretty slippery path to ignore guidebooks like that.

Isn’t Goku fighting Freeza in base but going SSJ vs Frost already evidence by itself? Granted Freeza one shots Frost later, but this is after quite some training.

With that said, the manga is generally consistent and clear about where characters stand in relation to each other. There are things in the anime that flat-out can't be reconciled unless you pretend that some parts of it adhere to a different power structure than other parts, especially in the Tournament of Power.

Nah lol. The Black Saga is an absolute mess. Kefla gets hyped at the strongest in one chapter but then loses to Gohan who still hasn’t surpassed Goku. 17 struggles with Dyspo off screen and then Goku says he’s almost as strong as him. In the Moro Saga we even see 18 surviving direct fights with OG73I, Saganbo and Moro but not obliterating Shimorekka. Toyotaro has some Heroes-tier sense of scaling.

The anime’s problem is more that the power ups are too outrageous. Unlike the manga they adhered to Toriyama’s saying that Saiyans get stronger as they fight, but they turn it up to eleven by having SSJB Goku fight people like Merged Zamasu or Jiren. But hey, at least it’s not Roshi who’s making Jiren sweat.

[Hugo Boss]

I think you can reasonably infer that DBS Broly accommodates both continuities; I'd actually go even further and argue that it accommodates the manga more than the anime, given the bits about Freeza needing Metamoran Fusion explained to him, Goku not knowing the meaning of a word he used freely in the TV adaptation, and Goku sometimes using an aura with Blue even currently in the manga. You'd only run into some real errors if you're viewing it as a continuation of the anime, but what else is new?

I would argue there are errors if you view it as a continuation of the manga as well. Freeza needing Fusion to be explained to him is a common issue, the presence of Super Saiyan Blue aura is a manga-only issue. I think one of manga covers has Goku and Vegeta sporting different Super Saiyan Blue auras, if I'm not mistaken, but Toyotaro still hasn't explained what happened with CSSB's trademark.

But if we’re taking the movies as outdated based on label, then the unseen events of RoF must mirror that of the anime (besides the Ginyu-Tagoma stuff), which makes sense since the RoF anime was airing right after the manga finished BoGs. The anime puts a much bigger emphasis on Goku and Vegeta’s training under Whis as a reason for them fighting Freeza rather than “Saiyan Beyond God” (which never even existed in the series).

The anime uses the same verbiage from the movie to refer to Goku and Vegeta's god-like normal forms. But you are right about the anime taking some liberties, like expanding on Goku and Vegeta's training. There are also the blatant contradictions, like Tagoma being the strongest Freeza's soldier, instead of Shisami, Freeza's 1st form torturing SS Gohan instead of one-shotting Base Gohan, Gotenks showing up, Piccolo being killed, and so on.

In the manga version, we only know that Goku and Vegeta defeated Freeza using Super Saiyan Blue, which they acquired after training with Whis. We don't know how the rest of the story plays out. But if you want my honest opinion, I think simplifying Goku and Vegeta forms as RoF did would make the most sense considering all the build-up leading to that moment, but unfortunately colors have too much power in this franchise.

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

I also concur with the idea that Freeza's final form is at SS level, but a tad stronger than Frost.

[Mr Baggins]

I would argue there are errors if you view it as a continuation of the manga as well. Freeza needing Fusion to be explained to him is a common issue, the presence of Super Saiyan Blue aura is a manga-only issue.

In Japanese, Gogeta uses the term "Fusion", which specifically refers to Metamoran fusion rather than Potara merging. Freeza never personally saw that kind of thing happen in the manga.

We've seen Goku using an aura with Blue on a few occasions after completing it, especially in the current arc. I'll admit that's a bit weird, but my point is that it's not directly contradictory with what we see in DBS Broly. It's true that Vegeta uses a different aura for Blue Evolved, though.

Having said that, I would agree that the movies are their own all-encompassing meta thing. I'm just saying that they'd certainly seem to accommodate the manga more than the two modern Z films would.

Kefla gets hyped at the strongest in one chapter but then loses to Gohan who still hasn’t surpassed Goku. 17 struggles with Dyspo off screen and then Goku says he’s almost as strong as him. In the Moro Saga we even see 18 surviving direct fights with OG73I, Saganbo and Moro but not obliterating Shimorekka.

Sorry, hombre, but none of these are inconsistencies.

Kefla isn't even implied to be awfully stronger than Kale (which is how Potara fusion works when there's a massive strength difference between fusees), a character that every Blue tier fighter had gone at length to comment was not strong enough to seriously pose a threat to them. 17 struggling with Dyspo doesn't mean anything when Dyspo is already in his team's top three. 18 surviving encounters with Seven-Three and Saganbo while teaming up with 17 and the others doesn't make her absurdly powerful. Vegeta having a stronger SS2 was already established in the BoG arc.

But here, lemme help you with some examples of actual internal contradictions:

18 easily lifting Tupper's concentrated weight when base Goku failed to, U9's fighters individually giving the base Saiyans a hard time - to the point of forcing them to transform - even though they're supposed to be weaker than Basil who (in turn) is massively weaker than Good Boo, Ganos's transformed state getting defeated by Roshi even when faring evenly with base Goku in a weaker form, literally everything Ribrianne does, a rusty Super Saiyan Gohan fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Goku, etcetera etcetera.

Oh wait, that's all in the anime.

Again, literal essays worth of shit I could write down if I really wanted to. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

besides the Ginyu-Tagoma stuff

Nah, you can't have it both ways. Either the details are all the same in the manga or they're not.

Besides, Saiyan Beyond God does exist in the anime, at least at the start. Goku absorbs SSG's power, and then Goku (RoF arc) and Vegeta (Potaeufeu arc) use the same verbiage to acknowledge their godly tier bases while describing SSGSS. I say "at the start" only because the anime isn't coherent at all.

[Skar]

I agree. Toriyama did say he imagined a 10x boost, so I think he definitely had a vague idea of “If SSJ form gets much stronger then so does Base”, but nothing specific. The SEG multipliers are more of a generalization of how it works, but it’s a pretty slippery path to ignore guidebooks like that.

I think they're worth taking into consideration as much as the people writing the story would be. The writers could have them in mind but what I mean is that there's no indication that Toyotaro and Toei are reviewing the guidebooks as they're writing. For those that do adhere to them, the gains each arc would be much smaller which I don't think is a problem either. When it comes to guidebooks, fans usually pick and choose which information they want to use. I recall SSJ3 was considered a potential unlock which would fit with the idea that Goku only became noticeably stronger after unlocking a new form with God ki.

Isn’t Goku fighting Freeza in base but going SSJ vs Frost already evidence by itself? Granted Freeza one shots Frost later, but this is after quite some training.

I'm not sure since I recall Goku suggesting Frost should train like Freeza implying he's still weaker than Freeza in his 4th form. I assume he's done some training to be stronger than Piccolo and put up a fight against SSJ Goku. If Freeza trained four months, maybe Frost stopped after a few weeks.

[Koitsukai]

The author isn't going to hide the truth of the matter behind so many directorial choices made by himself.

Let’s be honest, this is the same author that had SSJ2 Vegeta beating up SSJ Black the next chapter without any explanation whatsoever.

But I have to say, Goku not comparing Trunks to Boo actually is a pretty good point, and I’m surprised it took anyone so long to bring it up. He didn’t mind comparing Dabra to Cell even though Shin had no idea who Cell was, so comparing Trunks to a power he only ever heard of isn’t beyond him, after all. But is an argument from silence reason to make all these mental gymnastics and say there’s been a retcon in RoF? Isn’t that like saying Freeza is retconned into being stronger than the Androids because Kuririn compared Cell to him instead of them?

I can see the problem, but I don't think it's such a big deal once you accept SS2 Vegeta is basically SS3 Vegeta, ever since BoG. So, SS3 Goku probably is below or around base Black, and SS3 Vegeta (visually, SS2 Vegeta) is above SS Black.
I guess the issue comes from SS Black and base Black not being as distanced as regular SS and base saiyans usually are, there should be at least a 10x gap between them, and that gap is too big for Goku and Vegeta in their SS3 equivalents while being even on the other forms. It was implied Black hadn't gotten the hang of his new body yet. So, while not stated, we can draw the conclusion that, for Black, turning SS doesn't provide much of a boost, it makes him slightly stronger.

This is headcanon territory, so beware: Black probably can access most of Goku's power reserve in his base form, and his SS form only gives him a minimum boost, explaining his amazing base form and his slightly better SS. This is a more practical way to use that power, so while Goku divides his full power in 4 stages, Black might be able to use it better, like 90% of it in base, and having only 10% left for his SS forms. Kaboom's fusion theory is similar to what Black might get.
Or maybe he has all of the power in his base form, sorta like Gohan, and the zenkai boosts he keeps getting are unlocking more power for his SS form, IIRC, he says that at first he couldn't turn SS? maybe I'm misremembering this, though. I do remember Trunks says his SS is stronger than before.
He also has god ki, I've read a theory about how Black actually works, taking all of these into account but I don't remember even where I read it.
I will concede that it's quite a mess that arc in that regard, but I think we can work around it if we are willing to fill in the blank ourselves.

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

It has to be something stronger than SS Caulifla, to beat Freeza, but not that much stronger for a SS like Caulifla to put up a decent fight. We can also assume Gohan got suckerpunched -he kinda did in RoF, tho- and perhaps he would be able to stand up to higher forms of Freeza, even if he is the weakest SS Gohan ever.
I'd say SS Goku, like vs Frost, or perhaps SS2 Goku.

Or you can have Goku and Freeza just go straight into their new forms.


SS Black beating SSB Vegeta, even after the senzu, is to me a way to showcase just how shitty the incomplete SSB form is, and to what extent Black keeps improving.

[ZombieVito]

There are things in the anime that flat-out can't be reconciled unless you pretend that some parts of it adhere to a different power structure than other parts, especially in the Tournament of Power.

Care to name them?

[Goku9001]

Far from that. I’m suggesting Super Saiyan Goku is still much weaker than Kid Boo, as Goku doesn’t accomplish nothing in his mental exercise.

I would argue that it is. Goku is completely aware of Kid Boo's power and opts to use Super Saiyan. With the example of Toppo and Trunks, Goku makes it a clear point that if there's a large gap between his current power and his opponent or he feels as though he is in danger, then he will transform. Goku isn't gauging anything here since he knows Pure Boo's power. Therefore, for him to feel confident in attacking him directly means he knows he can win.

I'm establishing an upper-bound here since I don't think Goku can just one-shot Pure Boo or defeat him easily, otherwise we likely would have been shown just that since the context of the scene is to establish Goku's strength in preparation of a future threat.

I think it’s worth pointing out that the three continuities aren’t supposed to be read as one thing. Anime powerscalling is confusing in its own regard, for that matter. This is not to say you should consider one in favor of the other, you are free to choose which continuity has the most appeal to you. But for strength discussion, manga content is generally preferred.

Absolutely. Manga takes precedence but that doesn't mean movie material shouldn't ever be considered. If we want to know the exact events of Battle of Gods and DBS Broly, then we would have to watch movie. And I don't see anything that goes against it. DBS Broly makes the assumption that the viewer has watched the Tournament of Power and is aware of what happens to Frieza to make sense of it. The recap is there for viewers to understand why Frieza is present but that doesn't mean the Tournament of Power never happened or had some unforeseen chain of events that we're not aware of.

DBS Broly didn’t accommodate the manga’s power structure, because Super Saiyan Blue works differently, and on top of that Goku doesn’t use Kaioken and Ultra Instinct, so it doesn’t accommodate the anime either. The movie has its own version of the story.

DBS Super Hero ignores Gohan’s progression in the manga, he is not supposed to be using Super Saiyan anymore, and ignores that Goku and Vegeta had already reached their ultra forms. It implies Vegeta is still Whis’ student, and so on.

If Toyotaro doesn’t adapt the movies, he is still telling his own story. Again, you are not supposed to read them as one thing, so there aren’t “changes”. Changes is what we see when there are reboots.

I would say that it did. Kaioken was explicitly omitted because it is not present in the manga continuity. Furthermore, for most of their screen time, Super Saiyan Blue is seen without an aura outside of powering up or explicitly illustrating heavily ki-infused attacks so the viewer is given visual context as to what is happening. Otherwise, Super Saiyan Blue is often seen without an aura.

In the case of DBS Super Hero, that is a fair point but Toriyama isn't writing his story in respect to Toyotaro's. In the case of Resurrection of F, Toyotaro is writing his story in respect to Toriyama's vision which includes Base Goku entering the scene and battling Frieza before revealing what it is that he's been up to since reaching Super Saiyan. We are told that Goku and Vegeta were keeping up with Whis' training which is consistent with how the anime handles it.

In regards to these changes, we don't know what Gohan has been up to since the Granolah arc. A considerable period of time has elapsed which makes room for Gohan having grown rusty. The Ultra forms likely aren't being showcased since the viewers of Broly and the anime are their main audience. But that's not to say that completely going against the manga. In regards to Vegeta presumably training under Whis, we have no way of knowing if that won't be the case in the manga. It's too soon to tell. We have enough information with Resurrection of F but not enough with Super Hero IMO.

I really doubt Toyotaro intended for us to measure the accuracy of these statements by how much of a reaction they get. It's fairly obvious a SSJ2 coming close to any version of SSJ3 would be more impressive to the other characters than a SSJ2 surpassing another SSJ2. I consider it from the perspective of the audience this was written for. They see a comparison to a SSJ2 then a comparison to a SSJ3 after Trunks powers up again.

How much stronger SSJ3 Goku is since the Buu saga is up to personal interpretation. Based on the many years fans have been discussing it, I think it's clear we don't have an accurate measurement other than him being stronger than before. Toriyama thought it was worth mentioning when they surpassed the last benchmark of SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu saga. I'm fine with him surpassing Gotenks and Gohan in BoG if that's what they intended to convey but only direct statement we get is for his base compared to Freeza.

Those are extreme close-up shots of both Goku and Vegeta's reactions. I would certainly say that is one detail worth considering when evaluating both of their statements. On top of Goku mentioning it afterwards. How Base and Super Saiyan compares to Gohan is irrelevant because the narrative isn't building up anything like it is with Powered-Up Trunks. Base and Super Saiyan is irrelevant. How Powered-Up Trunks compares is completely relevant since it establishes how powerful the main antagonist is.

It is worth mentioning that the Base Goku and Frieza comparison is completely omitted from the manga. But, Toyotaro definitely wants and sort of expects the readers to have viewed the movie to understand all of the details.

[Goku9001]

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

We actually have no way of knowing how powerful Super Saiyan Caulifa is compared to Goku and Vegeta, which I guess is another piece of evidence to show how vague Toyotaro is with the powerscaling.

[Yuji]

If you had to interpret Resurrection F's events in the manga following the "Goku & co didn't get much stronger from the Boo arc onwards" paradigm, then how would you? How strong is Freeza in the manga and which forms did Goku use against him? Base Freeza in the ToP seems outclassed by regular old Super Saiyans. At least stronger than Boo Super Saiyans, but still very weak nevertheless.

The manga is also not without its inconsistent scaling. SSB Vegeta after eating a senzu bean losing to SS Goku Black comes to mind.

We actually have no way of knowing how powerful Super Saiyan Caulifa is compared to Goku and Vegeta, which I guess is another piece of evidence to show how vague Toyotaro is with the powerscaling.

We can scale Caulifla to be on Cabba's level and we know how Cabba compares to Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

We can scale Caulifla to be on Cabba's level and we know how Cabba compares to Vegeta.

We can't. Goku and Vegeta made significant gains during the Goku Black arc. Aside from that, I don't think Cabba would be capable of fending off the Pride Troopers the way Super Saiyan Goku could.