About translating "ken" as "fist"

[nineko]

Premise: I'm not a native English speaker, I'm Italian.

With that said, there's something that always perplexed me: why is "ken" usually translated as "fist" in English media? We can see it in the Kaioh Ken which you call "king Kai's fist", or even outside Dragon Ball, e.g. "fist of the North Star".

Aside from the obviously inappropriate meaning, wiktionary defines "fist" as "a hand with the fingers clenched or curled inward", basically a synonym of "punch".

While one can argue that punches actually are involved in the signature move of the Hokuto no Ken anime, the Kaioh Ken quite clearly doesn't look like a punch.

So, here's what I'm wondering: isn't there any better word in the English language to use in this context? Dunno, "king Kai's move", or "king Kai's technique".

[Shorty GZ2]

From what I can sort of surmise, "fist" in this context means "(martial) art"

[MasenkoHA]

We can see it in the Kaioh Ken which you call "king Kai's fist", .

To be fair nobody actually calls if King Kai's Fist.


I could be wrong but I don't think the fist is suppose to be taken literally and just referring to a martial arts technique. There's also Zanzoken (After Image Fist) and Taiyoken (Solar Fist). Neither involve fist.


In the case of English dubs Kaio Ken was left as it (but mostly mispronounced as Kayo Ken until 2008ish) Zanzoken got localized as The After Image Technique and Taiyoken got localized as Solar Flare

[nineko]

There's also Zanzoken (After Image Fist) and Taiyoken (Solar Fist). Neither involve fist.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I only used the Kaioh Ken as an example, but I know there are several more, which is exactly what perplexes me. I wonder why they chose "fist" to begin with, but I see from your reply and from the one above that it should probably be interpreted in a meta sense, one which isn't even mentioned on wiktionary, though.

Thanks.

[WittyUsername]

We can see it in the Kaioh Ken which you call "king Kai's fist", .

To be fair nobody actually calls if King Kai's Fist.

The first two Budokai games do, although that’s the only time I’ve ever heard it be called that.

[MasenkoHA]

We can see it in the Kaioh Ken which you call "king Kai's fist", .

To be fair nobody actually calls if King Kai's Fist.

The first two Budokai games do, although that’s the only time I’ve ever heard it be called that.

I stand corrected. This is what happens when I don't really play/care about the video games.


Weird though. I guess Bandai Namco's localization team had no shits to give about what Funimation had used prior?

[Anonymous Friend]

Don't fighting games also translate hand related attacks from "-ken" to hand, and feet related ones from "kyaku" to kick?

[jjgp1112]

To be fair nobody actually calls if King Kai's Fist.

The first two Budokai games do, although that’s the only time I’ve ever heard it be called that.

I stand corrected. This is what happens when I don't really play/care about the video games.


Weird though. I guess Bandai Namco's localization team had no shits to give about what Funimation had used prior?

It was just one of those weird things I guess, because other dub attack names like Special Beam Cannon, Spirit Bomb and Destructo Disc were still in there too.

Also Infogrames/Atari was the publisher for the American releases back then, so Bandai might not have been as involved in the localization as they are these days.

[Jord]

The first two Budokai games do, although that’s the only time I’ve ever heard it be called that.

I stand corrected. This is what happens when I don't really play/care about the video games.


Weird though. I guess Bandai Namco's localization team had no shits to give about what Funimation had used prior?

It was just one of those weird things I guess, because other dub attack names like Special Beam Cannon, Spirit Bomb and Destructo Disc were still in there too.

Also Infogrames/Atari was the publisher for the American releases back then, so Bandai might not have been as involved in the localization as they are these days.

Good call, my friend.
The localization was weird. At a certain point in the game Vegeta cursus by shouting "YOU AUNT SALLIES!!"

[VegettoEX]

The localization was weird. At a certain point in the game Vegeta cursus by shouting "YOU AUNT SALLIES!!"

There were two distinct English translations of the first Budokai; the one you're referencing with that Vegeta line was the European one, whereas the American one was certainly (for lack of a better phrase) more "dubified"... since that's all that existed on it was an English dub track, as opposed to the English-subtitled European release with the original Japanese audio.

[ankokudaishogun]

Aside from the obviously inappropriate meaning, wiktionary defines "fist" as "a hand with the fingers clenched or curled inward", basically a synonym of "punch".

e quella è la LETETRALE DEFINIZIONE DA DIZIONARIO di 拳
sorry, I was letting my Italian showing.

I was saying: THAT is the literal DICTIONARY DEFINITION of 拳.

That said, context is everything in Japanese, as usual: in the martial arts context, 拳 is also often used as a SUFFIX for martial techniques and even styles

[nineko]

I see, thanks for this insight.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

We can see it in the Kaioh Ken which you call "king Kai's fist", .

To be fair nobody actually calls it King Kai's Fist.

The Budokai games did. This was fixed in Tenkaichi.