Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Let's just say that this is a thing. True even for the anime and Jiren's power level on a scouter wouldn't be measured as being much higher than Vegeta's.

His fighting style is so effective that he can effortlessly defeat someone about 20 times as strong as himself. Even overcome two people of that level. Can with ease push back a large Spirit Bomb, the ultimate move. Is superior to his own God of Destruction. Is vastly superior to Super Saiyan 2 Kefla who would be dozens of times more powerful.

So really at such a point, a difference in power level doesn't exactly mean much does it? Zamasu could have ten times the power and he'd still get his head kicked in.

[HeroR]

Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu

People can and will.

Anime or manga. The difference was immense.

If you say that he beats him because of "superior strength", then you are proven wrong by the new movie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Of course, there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to copy and adapt to Jiren's style, especially in a prolonged fight.

In the end, "strength" was never Jiren's forte, it was his unique fighting style...

But Toriyama’s Fusion Zamasu is very weak to the point Goku and Vegeta stalled him for an hour. And all Jiren talked about was strength in all versions, so it’s his forte. He just backs it up with skill too, something said in both versions.

[SupremeKai25]

People can and will.

Anime or manga. The difference was immense.

If you say that he beats him because of "superior strength", then you are proven wrong by the new movie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Of course, there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to copy and adapt to Jiren's style, especially in a prolonged fight.

In the end, "strength" was never Jiren's forte, it was his unique fighting style...

But Toriyama’s Fusion Zamasu is very weak to the point Goku and Vegeta stalled him for an hour. And all Jiren talked about was strength in all versions, so it’s his forte. He just backs it up with skill too, something said in both versions.

In the movie Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't much stronger than him in raw power though.

Wouldn't that imply that Vegito Blue can stomp Jiren?

Of course, in the manga Shin already theorized that Vegito Blue could be stronger than Beerus.

By the way, Fat Buu and Vegeta also stalled Kid Buu for a long time, despite being fodders to him. It doesn't really mean much. Like Kid Buu, we know Zamasu is an antagonist who likes to play with his food and show off.

But regardless, at this point it is very possible that Jiren would get the "Zamasu treatment" if he fought Vegito Blue. If the gap between Vegeta and Jiren really wasn't that big.

[HeroR]

If you say that he beats him because of "superior strength", then you are proven wrong by the new movie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Of course, there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to copy and adapt to Jiren's style, especially in a prolonged fight.

In the end, "strength" was never Jiren's forte, it was his unique fighting style...

But Toriyama’s Fusion Zamasu is very weak to the point Goku and Vegeta stalled him for an hour. And all Jiren talked about was strength in all versions, so it’s his forte. He just backs it up with skill too, something said in both versions.

In the movie Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't much stronger than him in raw power though.

Wouldn't that imply that Vegito Blue can stomp Jiren?

Of course, in the manga Shin already theorized that Vegito Blue could be stronger than Beerus.

By the way, Fat Buu and Vegeta also stalled Kid Buu for a long time, despite being fodders to him. It doesn't really mean much. Like Kid Buu, we know Zamasu is an antagonist who likes to play with his food and show off.

Does he means Blue or UI? Since no matter what version you look at, Jiren not only pushed Goku to get a new form that broke his limits, but he outlasted UI. This also stands out since Toriyama went out of way to make this form for Goku, so it wasn’t added fan-service.

Vegito Blue wasn’t a thing in Toriyama’s original draft. He only came into being because of Toyo for fan-service. In short, Fusion Zamasu was made stronger in all versions just to have an excuse to have Vegito kick him around.

They stall Kid Buu for barely a minute and Vegeta was so messed up that he couldn’t move anymore. Not an entire hour.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That statement about Jiren doesn't any make sense for both manga and anime.

If the movie claimed that the mindset and training methods he used were responsible for the big difference in power, then yeah, I guess you could say it. But Vegeta says the difference wasn't that big, and that what made it seem like that was the way Jiren fought.

But... Jiren was absolutely a monster regardless. He was casually glaring a Spirit Bomb being pushed by SSB Kaioken x20 Goku. In the manga, he tanked a point blank Kamehameha from MSSB Goku. The difference was undeniably abysmal. To say otherwise implies that Ultra Instinct, in Toriyama's view, is also not that much stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, and the same goes for the Gods of Destruction, since Jiren is still placed in the same ballpark as them by Goku.

We just have to assume that for Toriyama, he wasn't that strong to begin with. But there's very little information about how Toriyama sees these characters in the original drafts, so you can barely scales them outside of the movie continuity

[ZombieVito]

Several things to consider.
GAMMA 2 wasn't at full power against orange Piccolo.
Picolo wasn't able to damage cell when GAMMA 2 full power weakened Cell Max.
Fat Gotenks himself is able to slightly crack Cell Max's dome.
GAMMA 1 at 18% is equal to Ultimate Gohan.
Gohan beat a WEAKENED cell (thanks to Gamma 2) with the help of Gotenks, Piccolo, Gamma 1 and Gamma 2, Krilin and C18.
So it's not really hard to think that the 7 guys are as strong or even stronger than Goku and Vegeta Blue.

All statements are pretty vagues (Gamma 1 and 2 MIGHT BE comparable to Goku, Gohan say's MAYBE Goku can't dealt with Cell Max)...
So take everything with a salt of grain....
Add that Goku and Vegeta are training for several weeks with Beerus so they don't know exactly their current power levels.

What we're sure is that Gamma 1 >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Gamma 2 is the strongest after Gohan blanco....
I'd say it's more like this.
Gohan Blanco>Cell Max>Gamma2>Piccolo Orange and Gamma1>Piccolo ultimate>Gohan ultimate.
If we think Gamma 2 and 1 are similar to Goku and Vegeta SS Blue from Broly (last time piccolo see them fighting), so Gohan blanco is superior to Goku blue from Broly.
So nothing clearly state that current Goku and Vegeta SS blue are inferior to Gohan.

18%? This is the first time I read this.

It makes no sense for Gamma 2 not using his full power against Chad Piccolo.

[ankokudaishogun]

seriously, Jiren being a SUPERB martial artist, which in DB context means manipulating Ki, was stated quite explicitly from the start in both anime AND manga:

• the manga has Toppo stating Jiren's superior in fighting skill to Belmod
• the anime has Whis comparing his fighting ability to a God of Destruction

Given we are now told Jiren's "raw" Power Level wasn't much different than Goku and Vegeta's during ToP(and let's be honest:that means Blue Evolution\Blue KK20: their most powerful REGULAR forms), id's say it's like this:
Jiren∶ToPBlue^max=SSGrade-4∶SSGrade-1

As in: the RAW power-level isn't too different, but the Ki control is on another level, letting him defeat people with a much greater "raw" power-level.

Fun enough: this basically it's the opposite of the begin of DBZ, where Goku&co were the one able to punch higher than their raw level thanks to Ki manipulation.


That said, Jiren's RESULTING power-level in the anime is sky-high, especially once he unlock Super Full Power.
It would be quite easy to play\retcon it reaching heights much higher than should have been possible due the particular and extreme circumstances, which could easily include ToP MUI appearing much more impressive than its later feats

[larzooma]

Several things to consider.
GAMMA 2 wasn't at full power against orange Piccolo.
Picolo wasn't able to damage cell when GAMMA 2 full power weakened Cell Max.
Fat Gotenks himself is able to slightly crack Cell Max's dome.
GAMMA 1 at 18% is equal to Ultimate Gohan.
Gohan beat a WEAKENED cell (thanks to Gamma 2) with the help of Gotenks, Piccolo, Gamma 1 and Gamma 2, Krilin and C18.
So it's not really hard to think that the 7 guys are as strong or even stronger than Goku and Vegeta Blue.

All statements are pretty vagues (Gamma 1 and 2 MIGHT BE comparable to Goku, Gohan say's MAYBE Goku can't dealt with Cell Max)...
So take everything with a salt of grain....
Add that Goku and Vegeta are training for several weeks with Beerus so they don't know exactly their current power levels.

What we're sure is that Gamma 1 >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Gamma 2 is the strongest after Gohan blanco....
I'd say it's more like this.
Gohan Blanco>Cell Max>Gamma2>Piccolo Orange and Gamma1>Piccolo ultimate>Gohan ultimate.
If we think Gamma 2 and 1 are similar to Goku and Vegeta SS Blue from Broly (last time piccolo see them fighting), so Gohan blanco is superior to Goku blue from Broly.
So nothing clearly state that current Goku and Vegeta SS blue are inferior to Gohan.

18%? This is the first time I read this.

It makes no sense for Gamma 2 not using his full power against Chad Piccolo.

Makes no sense. If you're holding back the majority of your power, you don't keep throwing punches at that level to a character tanking each one then let them one shot you. Sounds like an a** pull to me.

He's no Goku testing his opponent and if he was you easily dodge an attack you know has the potential to hurt you.

[ankokudaishogun]

apparently Gamma-1 was CONSUMING 18% of his energy reserves against Ultimate Gohan, not using 18% of his power-level.

[dragonball0900]

So I guess the power scaling in this movie would be something similar to this:

Spoiler:

Base Gohan < Base Piccolo < SSJ Gohan << Ultimate Piccolo < Ultimate Gohan < Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 << Orange Piccolo < Cell Max << Final Gohan

Supposedly SSB Goku and Vegeta would more or less fit somewhere around or above Gamma 1 and 2 and below Orange Piccolo based on the movie spoilers summaries.

[CortoMaltese]

It's from MS SHADOW review :
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/dragon ... y.1261253/

1) Curious, Gohan asks him how much POWER he has left and Gamma 1 answers that he still has 82% left in his tank. Gohan then smiles awkwardly, saying "You gotta be kidding me!"

2) Gamma 2 then POWERS UP, his aura engulfing him in a ball of blue ki, and skyrockets to the edge of the atmosphere at full speed. As the others try to hold off Cell Max, he then plunges back releasing THE ENTIRETY OF HIS POWER. It looks as if a giant laser beam is falling from the sky and it comes down crashing directly into the giant monster who is trying its hardest to push back. Gamma 2 continues to increase his speed, his aura turning from blue to red and expanding.

So GAMMA 1>>> Ultimate Gohan
And GAMMA 2>> Orange Piccolo
Cause GAMMA 2 weakened Cell Max when Piccolo was unable to damage the same Monster....

[ZombieVito]

So I guess the power scaling in this movie would be something similar to this:

Spoiler:

Base Gohan < Base Piccolo < SSJ Gohan << Ultimate Piccolo < Ultimate Gohan < Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 << Orange Piccolo < Cell Max << Final Gohan

Supposedly SSB Goku and Vegeta would more or less fit somewhere around or above Gamma 1 and 2 and below Orange Piccolo based on the movie spoilers summaries.

Seems about right. Goku and Vegeta would need to go higher than SSB to beat Piccolo now.

2) Gamma 2 then POWERS UP, his aura engulfing him in a ball of blue ki, and skyrockets to the edge of the atmosphere at full speed. As the others try to hold off Cell Max, he then plunges back releasing THE ENTIRETY OF HIS POWER. It looks as if a giant laser beam is falling from the sky and it comes down crashing directly into the giant monster who is trying its hardest to push back. Gamma 2 continues to increase his speed, his aura turning from blue to red and expanding.

This is no different than when Vegeta killed himself to vaporize Boo. Suicide attacks punch way more than you normally can.

[larzooma]

It's from MS SHADOW review :
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/dragon ... y.1261253/

1) Curious, Gohan asks him how much POWER he has left and Gamma 1 answers that he still has 82% left in his tank. Gohan then smiles awkwardly, saying "You gotta be kidding me!"

2) Gamma 2 then POWERS UP, his aura engulfing him in a ball of blue ki, and skyrockets to the edge of the atmosphere at full speed. As the others try to hold off Cell Max, he then plunges back releasing THE ENTIRETY OF HIS POWER. It looks as if a giant laser beam is falling from the sky and it comes down crashing directly into the giant monster who is trying its hardest to push back. Gamma 2 continues to increase his speed, his aura turning from blue to red and expanding.

So GAMMA 1>>> Ultimate Gohan
And GAMMA 2>> Orange Piccolo
Cause GAMMA 2 weakened Cell Max when Piccolo was unable to damage the same Monster....

I think you're confusing stamina with power. Left in the tank sounds a lot more like Gohan is close to hitting a wall energy wise and he realizes Gamma 1 is no where close.

This is no different than when Vegeta killed himself to vaporize Boo. Suicide attacks punch way more than you normally can.

And I agree it's the same with the special beam cannon. Piccolo can release an attack many times his power. Its an ability to concentrate and release a higher level of energy.

[Hugo Boss]

The implications are that Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 are comparable to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms.

Gamma #1 is tad behind Ultimate Gohan. The 82% mention is about the amount Gamma #1 had left until he runs out of energy. This is in response to Gohan asking if Gamma #1 ever tires out, since #17 and #18 don’t.

Likewise, Gamma #2 is equally matched with Ultimate Piccolo, but Gamma #2 has the advantage due to having a large amount of stamina (much like when Piccolo fought #17).

What Gamma #2 attempts against Cell Max is basically a suicidal attack, where he uses 100% of what is left in his tank in one last attack. This doesn’t mean he was holding back against Piccolo, it just is that he decided to sacrifice everything to beat the villain.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, we see that Gamma 2's punches didn't flinch Orange Piccolo.

Gamma 2's attack against Cell Max went far above his own power level, using every bit of power left, similar to Vegeta's suicide attack in the Buu Arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If anything the feeling I got from Jiren back in the ToP was that he had rather poor Ki control/mental focus, and that’s why he spends so much time meditating. He’s incredibly arrogant, sloppy (he’s never on guard: Tries to tank most blasts and Vegeta and 17 get solid sneak blows on him) and is fatigued so badly from a 1 minute fight with UI Goku that he’s literally taken down by also worn out Base level characters. That mental focus is more something everybody has but he was lacking and trying to achieve than something he’s a master at.

But of course, Toriyama doesn’t think so.

[SupremeKai25]

If anything the feeling I got from Jiren back in the ToP was that he had rather poor Ki control/mental focus, and that’s why he spends so much time meditating. He’s incredibly arrogant, sloppy (he’s never on guard: Tries to tank most blasts and Vegeta and 17 get solid sneak blows on him) and is fatigued so badly from a 1 minute fight with UI Goku that he’s literally taken down by also worn out Base level characters. That mental focus is more something everybody has but he was lacking and trying to achieve than something he’s a master at.

But of course, Toriyama doesn’t think so.

I mean, he was sooooo strong, yet while using his full power, he was unable to eliminate Goku BEFORE he got Ultra Instinct back... and he had like two entire episodes to do it (Jiren goes full power at end of ep. 126, Goku gets UI back at the end of ep. 128, that's 2 episodes where Jiren could have used his almighty full power to just K.O. Goku, but in the end he couldn't).

Jiren had exceptional mental focus, but I never denied this. Rewatch the scenes with Jiren, he is always calm, composed, and collected. Ironically, he starts getting pummelled and humiliated by UI Goku precisely when he loses his composure and starts getting frustrated/angry; and regains the upper-hand only after calming down and getting his Limit-breaker form (which looks like UI, but recoloured in red).

Jiren's power was always overblown by the fandom, and this is something I noticed even before this movie came out. A few weeks ago, I was rewatching the ToP arc, and SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were literally fighting evenly and holding their ground against FULL POWER Jiren in eps. 127-128. Sure in the end they would have lost if Goku didn't get UI back, but still, if Jiren was so much stronger, you'd expect him to just roll over the opposition. Which is not what happened at all in those 2 episodes.

Then people say "oh but he effortlessly pushed back a Genkidama fired SSB Goku", in the end that's just empty hype. These scenes are included by the writers to make the fights look good, entertaining, funny, to keep people hooked, it's no different than Goku Black doing this while in BASE; but they are irrelevant from a powerscaling perspective:

https://youtu.be/nUM0seR1D9g?t=89


The writers included these scenes purely to make the characters (Black, Jiren with the Genkidama scene) look cool and generate hype. But they were not trying to make a precise point about their power levels.

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

The implications are that Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 are comparable to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms.

Gamma #1 is tad behind Ultimate Gohan. The 82% mention is about the amount Gamma #1 had left until he runs out of energy. This is in response to Gohan asking if Gamma #1 ever tires out, since #17 and #18 don’t.

Likewise, Gamma #2 is equally matched with Ultimate Piccolo, but Gamma #2 has the advantage due to having a large amount of stamina (much like when Piccolo fought #17).

What Gamma #2 attempts against Cell Max is basically a suicidal attack, where he uses 100% of what is left in his tank in one last attack. This doesn’t mean he was holding back against Piccolo, it just is that he decided to sacrifice everything to beat the villain.

Having seen the film, the implication seemed to be:

Spoiler:

Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan (initially) > Gammas > Piccolo (Potential-unleashed)

The 80% line is indeed just about energy reserves in terms of stamina; not strength.

In addition, Gamma #2 actually has the clear upper hand against potential-unleashed Piccolo before Piccolo goes Orange. He's surprised by Piccolo's increase in strength, but reveals he hasn't been fighting at full power, and quickly dispatches Piccolo again (triggering his Orange power-up).

While Ultimate Gohan only has a slight edge against Gamma #1, Orange Piccolo puts his Gamma down in one punch. Piccolo coming out ahead there is further backed up by Gohan later trusting that Orange Piccolo (grown giant) might be their best bet against Cell MAX, and encouraging him to use their last Senzu. However, Piccolo still doubts he can win, and encourages Gohan to take the Senzu so he can charge a full-power attack. We don't get to find out if Piccolo's faith in Gohan pulling out more power in Ultimate would have come to fruition, as he winds up achieving his next transformation instead.

Re: Gamma #2's full power: The suicide attack he uses against Cell MAX is drawing out all of his energy; it isn't just his normal fighting strength. It's the equivalent of Vegeta's self-destruction against Boo.

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

[Thani]

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Let's just say that this is a thing. True even for the anime and Jiren's power level on a scouter wouldn't be measured as being much higher than Vegeta's.

His fighting style is so effective that he can effortlessly defeat someone about 20 times as strong as himself. Even overcome two people of that level. Can with ease push back a large Spirit Bomb, the ultimate move. Is superior to his own God of Destruction. Is vastly superior to Super Saiyan 2 Kefla who would be dozens of times more powerful.

So really at such a point, a difference in power level doesn't exactly mean much does it? Zamasu could have ten times the power and he'd still get his head kicked in.

Honestly? This. And I'm loving every minute of it, haha

It doesn't really FIT that much in Jiren's presentation, but I can buy this excuse. He can perform at a GoD level without being there in raw power (while still being easily the strongest mortal in the Tournament of Power).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You now, after inspecting these numbers, I like them. I would put Toppo and Vegeta higher than Kefla but this is fine too. Where would you put SSB Vegetto and Corrupted Fused Zamasu though?

Having Jiren not be thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku is very nice. Problem now is that SSB Gogeta gets so ridiculous higher than Jiren, it's very funny.

Question to everyone: What is the lowest multiplier you would give to SSG and SSB?

I agree about Toppo and Vegeta (And by consequence, late ToP KKx20 Goku) > Kefla, though I’m not sure about how to making that work without bloating things a bit more.

I always thought SSJB Gogeta could make short work of Broly, just look at what he does to Broly. But like someone said, the movie kinda makes the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > Anything else before make sense.

I don’t really see how SSJB could be anything other than 50x SSJG. It’s as official as SSJ itself being 50x to me.

I mean, he was sooooo strong, yet while using his full power, he was unable to eliminate Goku BEFORE he got Ultra Instinct back... and he had like two entire episodes to do it (starts going full power at end of ep. 126, Goku gets UI back at the end of ep. 128).

If Jiren is so almighty power-wise, why couldn't he just oneshot Goku off the ring without giving him the chance to get UI back?

Jiren had exceptional mental focus, but I never denied this. Rewatch the scenes with Jiren, he is always calm, composed, and collected. Ironically, he starts getting pummelled and humiliated by UI Goku precisely when he loses his composure and starts getting frustrated/angry; and regains the upper-hand only after calming down and getting his Limit-breaker form (which looks like UI, but recoloured in red).

Jiren's power was always overblown by the fandom, and this is something I noticed even before this movie came out. A few weeks ago, I was rewatching the ToP arc, and SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta were literally fighting evenly and holding their ground against FULL POWER Jiren in eps. 127-128. Sure in the end they would have lost if Goku didn't get UI back, but still, if Jiren was so much stronger, you'd expect him to just roll over the opposition. Which is not what happened at all in those 2 episodes.

Then people say "oh but he effortlessly pushed back a Genkidama fired SSB Goku", in the end that's just empty hype. These scenes are included by the writers to make the fights look good, entertaining, funny, to keep people hooked, it's no different than Goku Black doing this while in BASE; but they are irrelevant from a powerscaling perspective:

I think you missed the part where I call him “arrogant”. In the manga he at least fights from the start, but in the anime he spends half the tournament watching fights and the other half meditating. Even in the manga he’s stuck fighting SSJB Goku half the tournament, and whenever we get a glimpse of the fight it’s just Jiren standing still as Goku fails to budge him. This doesn’t sound like he couldn’t have one shot him. Even in the anime he just lets Base Goku go scot-free after their first fight.

In the manga I can see the difference being just a couple times or so. It’s a big gap when they fight him, but nothing gigantic.

In the anime there’s no running from it though. Jiren did put some effort in the Genki-Dama, but only with his suppressed power and gave off a Ki that scares everyone. Vegeta later says Jiren has the strongest Ki he ever felt. Jiren then does several power ups after that. Ki is power from the mind and body, so a strong mind will still make him stronger regardless. Vegeta’s statement doesn’t really mean anything when you think about it.

When Goku and Vegeta go fight Jiren, he’s initially tanking their Final Kamehameha combo without a scratch, but they slowly start doing better and better. In the anime the comparison should only apply to Goku and Vegeta’s powers by the end of the ToP after they had broken through all their limits and improved several times.