Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Nevaeh]

Jiren wank is based entirely on the anime so until the actual anime comes back and scales him down, people will shrug this off as another continuity. Just like manga Jiren

[larzooma]

Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.

Your understanding is correct.

It’s also exactly how he describes his own fighting in the manga.

Re: Gohan and Piccolo:

Spoiler:

It’s really hard to say how they’ll shake out against UI and UE Goku and Vegeta based on when the film was written and its loose connection to the specific details of current manga continuity. Future content will tell. No problem assuming Gohan’s new form is his “Ultra” equivalent in terms of power, but it’s hard (impossible?) to say whether or not he’d be above or below them within that realm. I think all references to the two of them in the movie kind of have to be understood as referring to (some vague movie level of) Blue. No matter how much or little sense that may make through the strictest continuity lens. There’s also wiggle-room and vague speculation built into every line to help smooth over whatever approach they go with moving forward.

But yeah, they both have to be at least > SSB (far more so for Gohan by the end), and I think that case if nothing else is made fairly clear by the script even without trying to work in other content.

At this point either #17 or Boo (manga) would be the weakest SSG+ character, depending on how they shake out. (Or SS Rage Trunks from the anime? Someone else can work that one out.)

For everyone who though I had some kind of weird grudge against Piccolo for not reading into Moro arc fight scenes, there you go. Piccolo strong. When it’s clear.

I tend to agree. It's definitely not clear cut he's stronger, but I think it sort of implies he could be . I'd say he's definitely on that level though. There's always been a special potential for half sayians/half humans. Look at Future Trunks in his Rage Form. He basically jumped to Blue due to his anger from SSJ2. Gohan even more so given even Vegeta acknowledges he has the greatest potential lol. We'll see how it shakes out in the future, whenever it finally makes it to the small screen. I just think the events, plus the comment at the end, plus Toriyama's comments before the movie, lends a lot to Gohan joining the big two at the least.

This isn't a statement on your post, just made me think. In terms of Piccolo prejudice, you definitely see some of it with this movie. I'll admit I'm a monster Piccolo nut. I have been for 20+ years when Kai was first airing. I've always wanted him to have some clear cut moments of him shining alongside the Sayians like he did against Frieza, 17, Imperfect Cell, etc. Even when I thought they gave him some love with his performance against Frost or the filler where he dominates a powerful SSJ2 Gohan, it didn't go far enough especially given people's default was to dismiss it. If you ever read my posts in the past, I've been arguing he's far stronger towards the end of the ToP than people give him credit for. Not up there with SSJB level characters, but definitely nowhere near Base Goku/Vegeta. Orange finally makes a pretty definitive statement on his increase in power given he can't keep up with Gamma 2 in Ultimate at that point and undeniably stomps him with ease in Orange. Hard to argue when Gohan is SSJB level in his Ultimate form and Gamma 1/2 are at an equal or higher level at that point in the fight, that Orange Piccolo tanking those hits and one shoting 2 isn't a clear indication he's well above that level. What would you think if you saw Jiren immediately stomp Goku with a punch and he was unconscious? A lot of this arguing about their power difference would seem silly without UI bridging a huge gap.
To see people place him at SSJB level after that scene just seems crazy, but I've seen it a lot.

Feels like some latent Piccolo hate to me. If Goku or Vegeta one shotted Gas in the next chapter after achieving a new state in Ultra, wouldn't you go bonkers at how substantial the gain was in that form?

[larzooma]

Orange finally makes a pretty definitive statement on his increase in power given he can't keep up with Gamma 2 in Ultimate at that point and undeniably stomps him with ease in Orange. Hard to argue when Gohan is SSJB level in his Ultimate form and Gamma 1/2 are at an equal or higher level at that point in the fight, that Orange Piccolo tanking those hits and one shoting 2 isn't a clear indication he's well above that level. What would you think if you saw Jiren immediately stomp Goku with a punch and he was unconscious? A lot of this arguing about their power difference would seem silly without UI bridging a huge gap.

I actually think that interpretation lends even more to Gohan catching up to and possibly topping the list. If Orange is substantially stronger than SSJB, not Ultra level, but at the very least above SSJBx20KK and SSJBE, then Gohan's performance against Cell Max after watching Piccolo get overmatched in that form is even more impressive. It's not that he becomes on par with Cell Max and with the other's help he gets off a Makankosappo to concentrate his power enough to destroy cell. He's shown outright dismissing him the way he did Perfect Cell in SSJ2. This means he basically has the same reaction as Orange Piccolo to Gamma 2 on a character that's arguably falls somewhere between UI Sign level at the very least to Ultra level or higher at the very best. Using Orange Piccolo as an indication Cell Max's floor level along with the looser interpretation of Gohan's statement that even Goku and Vegeta would have struggled in their Ultra forms as the ceiling, then Final Gohan being shown to seemingly outclass Cell Max puts him alongside them at the least. It would have been easier if he took on the character by himself and defeated him in the traditional sense, but I think the size, the berserk nature of his attacks, and the built in fail safe lent more to a team effort to subdue and stabilize than the traditional DB fight.

Orange Piccolo's fight with Cell Max implies Gohan isn't talking about them in their Blue forms even at their max levels, or he would have been more definitive that they wouldn't stand a chance. Not to mention he's witnessed Ultra Instinct in the anime continuity at this point, so he's definitely aware of Goku's ability to achieve the Mastered form. Even without Ultra Ego and the events from the manga the spectrum created between Orange Piccolo and Mastered UI within the anime continuity indicates Final Gohan is at a new level comparatively.

[HeroR]

Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.

Your understanding is correct.

It’s also exactly how he describes his own fighting in the manga.

Re: Gohan and Piccolo:

Spoiler:

It’s really hard to say how they’ll shake out against UI and UE Goku and Vegeta based on when the film was written and its loose connection to the specific details of current manga continuity. Future content will tell. No problem assuming Gohan’s new form is his “Ultra” equivalent in terms of power, but it’s hard (impossible?) to say whether or not he’d be above or below them within that realm. I think all references to the two of them in the movie kind of have to be understood as referring to (some vague movie level of) Blue. No matter how much or little sense that may make through the strictest continuity lens. There’s also wiggle-room and vague speculation built into every line to help smooth over whatever approach they go with moving forward.

But yeah, they both have to be at least > SSB (far more so for Gohan by the end), and I think that case if nothing else is made fairly clear by the script even without trying to work in other content.

At this point either #17 or Boo (manga) would be the weakest SSG+ character, depending on how they shake out. (Or SS Rage Trunks from the anime? Someone else can work that one out.)

For everyone who though I had some kind of weird grudge against Piccolo for not reading into Moro arc fight scenes, there you go. Piccolo strong. When it’s clear.

I tend to agree. It's definitely not clear cut he's stronger, but I think it sort of implies he could be . I'd say he's definitely on that level though. There's always been a special potential for half sayians/half humans. Look at Future Trunks in his Rage Form. He basically jumped to Blue due to his anger from SSJ2. Gohan even more so given even Vegeta acknowledges he has the greatest potential lol. We'll see how it shakes out in the future, whenever it finally makes it to the small screen. I just think the events, plus the comment at the end, plus Toriyama's comments before the movie, lends a lot to Gohan joining the big two at the least.

This isn't a statement on your post, just made me think. In terms of Piccolo prejudice, you definitely see some of it with this movie. I'll admit I'm a monster Piccolo nut. I have been for 20+ years when Kai was first airing. I've always wanted him to have some clear cut moments of him shining alongside the Sayians like he did against Frieza, 17, Imperfect Cell, etc. Even when I thought they gave him some love with his performance against Frost or the filler where he dominates a powerful SSJ2 Gohan, it didn't go far enough especially given people's default was to dismiss it. If you ever read my posts in the past, I've been arguing he's far stronger towards the end of the ToP than people give him credit for. Not up there with SSJB level characters, but definitely nowhere near Base Goku/Vegeta. Orange finally makes a pretty definitive statement on his increase in power given he can't keep up with Gamma 2 in Ultimate at that point and undeniably stomps him with ease in Orange. Hard to argue when Gohan is SSJB level in his Ultimate form and Gamma 1/2 are at an equal or higher level at that point in the fight, that Orange Piccolo tanking those hits and one shoting 2 isn't a clear indication he's well above that level. What would you think if you saw Jiren immediately stomp Goku with a punch and he was unconscious? A lot of this arguing about their power difference would seem silly without UI bridging a huge gap.
To see people place him at SSJB level after that scene just seems crazy, but I've seen it a lot.

Feels like some latent Piccolo hate to me. If Goku or Vegeta one shotted Gas in the next chapter after achieving a new state in Ultra, wouldn't you go bonkers at how substantial the gain was in that form?

The point is it is impossible to place Goku and Vegeta's power in the context of this movie because:

A) We didn't see anything from them from this movie to give any context on how strong they are.
B) This movie is several years after TOP and Broly, so it's pointless to try to compare how Goku and Vegeta were in those periods to Gohan or Piccolo now since that data is outdated. The same is honestly true of people like Jiren who everyone only uses TOP Jiren since we have no clue how much stronger he is in current times since Jiren always trains and someone like Hit got massively stronger between the U6 arc and the Future Trunks Saga.
C) This movie took place before Moro or Granola were a thing, so you can't really take what happened in the manga and try to place it within the movie. Especially when the manga has its own oddities with the movie like not mentioning Broly as one of the strongest mortals in U7 (outside of the bonus pages, the manga for the most part try to pretend Broly doesn't exists).
D) The movie purposely leaves it vague if Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max instead of making a definitive statement, much like Goku saying that Broly might be stronger than Beerus.

So even saying, "Piccolo is stronger than SSB" is something that can't be proven since we have no clue how strong Goku and Vegeta are at even base level. The best we have is Piccolo saying that Gamma is comparable to them, and that doesn't mean much when Goku was considered comparable to a God of Destruction as just a Super Saiyan 2 by Gowasu. Or how the Gods of Destruction during the Zeno matches called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, "a power that rivals the gods'. Or even Gohan himself who rivaled Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, yet he had a worst performance against Toppo, same with 17 who traded hands with Goku.

I actually think that interpretation lends even more to Gohan catching up to and possibly topping the list. If Orange is substantially stronger than SSJB, not Ultra level, but at the very least above SSJBx20KK and SSJBE, then Gohan's performance against Cell Max after watching Piccolo get overmatched in that form is even more impressive. It's not that he becomes on par with Cell Max and with the other's help he gets off a Makankosappo to concentrate his power enough to destroy cell. He's shown outright dismissing him the way he did Perfect Cell in SSJ2. This means he basically has the same reaction as Orange Piccolo to Gamma 2 on a character that's arguably falls somewhere between UI Sign level at the very least to Ultra level or higher at the very best. Using Orange Piccolo as an indication Cell Max's floor level along with the looser interpretation of Gohan's statement that even Goku and Vegeta would have struggled in their Ultra forms as the ceiling, then Final Gohan being shown to seemingly outclass Cell Max puts him alongside them at the least. It would have been easier if he took on the character by himself and defeated him in the traditional sense, but I think the size, the berserk nature of his attacks, and the built in fail safe lent more to a team effort to subdue and stabilize than the traditional DB fight.

Orange Piccolo's fight with Cell Max implies Gohan isn't talking about them in their Blue forms even at their max levels, or he would have been more definitive that they wouldn't stand a chance. Not to mention he's witnessed Ultra Instinct in the anime continuity at this point, so he's definitely aware of Goku's ability to achieve the Mastered form. Even without Ultra Ego and the events from the manga the spectrum created between Orange Piccolo and Mastered UI within the anime continuity indicates Final Gohan is at a new level comparatively.

Here is the problem with that statement, UI Signs and completed UI are not levels. They are multipliers. Like UI Signs that fought Jiren in 110 isn't the same UI Signs that fought Jiren in 129. So when you say 'UI Sign level', are you talking about UI Signs as seen against Kelfa or Jiren, do you mean a UI Sign if he appeared in the Broly movie, or do you mean UI Signs in the manga from the Moro or current arc?

As for the "Goku and Vegeta would have struggled in their Ultra forms as the ceiling" is an assumption that Vegeta even has UE since the movie was made before that form, same with Goku even having UI since this movie predates Moro. And this is assuming that Gohan knows how strong Goku and Vegeta currently are. Remember in Resurrection 'F', Gohan and Piccolo were shocked that Goku became so strong that he could fight final form Frieza without even going Super Saiyan.

"Not to mention he's witnessed Ultra Instinct in the anime continuity at this point, so he's definitely aware of Goku's ability to achieve the Mastered form."

Gohan would only be aware of TOP UI which would be years ago at this point, not whatever level of UI has currently since we have no clue what Gohan does or doesn't know about his dad.

[Goku9001]

Nope, they never grew stronger.

Vegeta says that they had no reason to grow stronger, since the gap in raw power between them and Jiren wasn't that big.

This means that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as they were in the fight against Black and Zamasu, and this also means that, back then, their power gap with Jiren wasn't significantly big.

Since the power gap between Vegeta and Jiren wasn't that big, that means that the gap between Goku Black (Vegeta and Goku's rival) and Jiren wasn't that big either. We will now have to re-evaluate how Fused Zamasu compares to Jiren.

Goku only defeated Jiren because he stopped thinking only in terms of raw power and started using instincts/calm/focus/discipline, like Jiren did.

Anything the anime said about their "power growth" (still unproven btw) is rendered moot and retconned by this new movie. And besides, isn't it said in another movie (RoF maybe?) that the two Saiyans no longer have Zenkai boosts to grow stronger mid-fight?

Jiren was never supposed to be almighty and untouchable, and if it came off as that from the anime, it was Toei jacking him off too much (like they did with Future Trunks in the previous arc).

This is completely wrong. Goku's power was noted to have grown stronger during his battle with Caulifa and Kale. Vegeta's power was explicitly stated to have been increasing against Jiren according to Belmod. On top of Vegeta evolving his Super Saiyan Blue form, he grew significantly stronger during his battle with Toppo. The notion that the Saiyans were not growing stronger, despite the narrative of the entire anime conveying how Saiyans can evolve and break through their limits during battle is an absurd notion.

There's no way to reconcile with this. The anime and manga explicitly demonstrates how Suppressed Jiren was vastly superior to Goku and Vegeta with Ultra Instinct being a necessity for Jiren to even use close to his full power. Ultra Instinct across both continuities leads to a huge increase in battle power. The anime makes it a point to convey how Goku shattering his limits enabled him to reach Ultra Instinct Omen. It also made it a point to compare the Genkidama combo (a collision far greater than the power of KKx20 Blue Goku) to SSJ Kefla and compared Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (110) to SSJ2 Kefla.

By your perspective, the Moro arc and Granolah arc have been retconned entirely simply based off one statement Vegeta made about Jiren. Have you ever considered how the movie served as a placeholder for how Toriyama envisioned the story to go and yet changed as his plans for the series has changed? This isn't the first time this has happened. Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F (anime) was retold to account for the direction the anime and manga were planning to go. I would wait before rushing to conclusions that would literally suggest overhauling two major arcs in the manga.

[larzooma]

Your understanding is correct.

It’s also exactly how he describes his own fighting in the manga.

Re: Gohan and Piccolo:

Spoiler:

It’s really hard to say how they’ll shake out against UI and UE Goku and Vegeta based on when the film was written and its loose connection to the specific details of current manga continuity. Future content will tell. No problem assuming Gohan’s new form is his “Ultra” equivalent in terms of power, but it’s hard (impossible?) to say whether or not he’d be above or below them within that realm. I think all references to the two of them in the movie kind of have to be understood as referring to (some vague movie level of) Blue. No matter how much or little sense that may make through the strictest continuity lens. There’s also wiggle-room and vague speculation built into every line to help smooth over whatever approach they go with moving forward.

But yeah, they both have to be at least > SSB (far more so for Gohan by the end), and I think that case if nothing else is made fairly clear by the script even without trying to work in other content.

At this point either #17 or Boo (manga) would be the weakest SSG+ character, depending on how they shake out. (Or SS Rage Trunks from the anime? Someone else can work that one out.)

For everyone who though I had some kind of weird grudge against Piccolo for not reading into Moro arc fight scenes, there you go. Piccolo strong. When it’s clear.

I tend to agree. It's definitely not clear cut he's stronger, but I think it sort of implies he could be . I'd say he's definitely on that level though. There's always been a special potential for half sayians/half humans. Look at Future Trunks in his Rage Form. He basically jumped to Blue due to his anger from SSJ2. Gohan even more so given even Vegeta acknowledges he has the greatest potential lol. We'll see how it shakes out in the future, whenever it finally makes it to the small screen. I just think the events, plus the comment at the end, plus Toriyama's comments before the movie, lends a lot to Gohan joining the big two at the least.

This isn't a statement on your post, just made me think. In terms of Piccolo prejudice, you definitely see some of it with this movie. I'll admit I'm a monster Piccolo nut. I have been for 20+ years when Kai was first airing. I've always wanted him to have some clear cut moments of him shining alongside the Sayians like he did against Frieza, 17, Imperfect Cell, etc. Even when I thought they gave him some love with his performance against Frost or the filler where he dominates a powerful SSJ2 Gohan, it didn't go far enough especially given people's default was to dismiss it. If you ever read my posts in the past, I've been arguing he's far stronger towards the end of the ToP than people give him credit for. Not up there with SSJB level characters, but definitely nowhere near Base Goku/Vegeta. Orange finally makes a pretty definitive statement on his increase in power given he can't keep up with Gamma 2 in Ultimate at that point and undeniably stomps him with ease in Orange. Hard to argue when Gohan is SSJB level in his Ultimate form and Gamma 1/2 are at an equal or higher level at that point in the fight, that Orange Piccolo tanking those hits and one shoting 2 isn't a clear indication he's well above that level. What would you think if you saw Jiren immediately stomp Goku with a punch and he was unconscious? A lot of this arguing about their power difference would seem silly without UI bridging a huge gap.
To see people place him at SSJB level after that scene just seems crazy, but I've seen it a lot.

Feels like some latent Piccolo hate to me. If Goku or Vegeta one shotted Gas in the next chapter after achieving a new state in Ultra, wouldn't you go bonkers at how substantial the gain was in that form?

The point is it is impossible to place Goku and Vegeta's power in the context of this movie because:

A) We didn't see anything from them from this movie to give any context on how strong they are.
B) This movie is several years after TOP and Broly, so it's pointless to try to compare how Goku and Vegeta were in those periods to Gohan or Piccolo now since that data is outdated. The same is honestly true of people like Jiren who everyone only uses TOP Jiren since we have no clue how much stronger he is in current times since Jiren always trains and someone like Hit got massively stronger between the U6 arc and the Future Trunks Saga.
C) This movie took place before Moro or Granola were a thing, so you can't really take what happened in the manga and try to place it within the movie. Especially when the manga has its own oddities with the movie like not mentioning Broly as one of the strongest mortals in U7 (outside of the bonus pages, the manga for the most part try to pretend Broly doesn't exists).
D) The movie purposely leaves it vague if Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max instead of making a definitive statement, much like Goku saying that Broly might be stronger than Beerus.

So even saying, "Piccolo is stronger than SSB" is something that can't be proven since we have no clue how strong Goku and Vegeta are at even base level. The best we have is Piccolo saying that Gamma is comparable to them, and that doesn't mean much when Goku was considered comparable to a God of Destruction as just a Super Saiyan 2 by Gowasu. Or how the Gods of Destruction during the Zeno matches called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, "a power that rivals the gods'. Or even Gohan himself who rivaled Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, yet he had a worst performance against Toppo, same with 17 who traded hands with Goku.

I actually think that interpretation lends even more to Gohan catching up to and possibly topping the list. If Orange is substantially stronger than SSJB, not Ultra level, but at the very least above SSJBx20KK and SSJBE, then Gohan's performance against Cell Max after watching Piccolo get overmatched in that form is even more impressive. It's not that he becomes on par with Cell Max and with the other's help he gets off a Makankosappo to concentrate his power enough to destroy cell. He's shown outright dismissing him the way he did Perfect Cell in SSJ2. This means he basically has the same reaction as Orange Piccolo to Gamma 2 on a character that's arguably falls somewhere between UI Sign level at the very least to Ultra level or higher at the very best. Using Orange Piccolo as an indication Cell Max's floor level along with the looser interpretation of Gohan's statement that even Goku and Vegeta would have struggled in their Ultra forms as the ceiling, then Final Gohan being shown to seemingly outclass Cell Max puts him alongside them at the least. It would have been easier if he took on the character by himself and defeated him in the traditional sense, but I think the size, the berserk nature of his attacks, and the built in fail safe lent more to a team effort to subdue and stabilize than the traditional DB fight.

Orange Piccolo's fight with Cell Max implies Gohan isn't talking about them in their Blue forms even at their max levels, or he would have been more definitive that they wouldn't stand a chance. Not to mention he's witnessed Ultra Instinct in the anime continuity at this point, so he's definitely aware of Goku's ability to achieve the Mastered form. Even without Ultra Ego and the events from the manga the spectrum created between Orange Piccolo and Mastered UI within the anime continuity indicates Final Gohan is at a new level comparatively.

Here is the problem with that statement, UI Signs and completed UI are not levels. They are multipliers. Like UI Signs that fought Jiren in 110 isn't the same UI Signs that fought Jiren in 129. So when you say 'UI Sign level', are you talking about UI Signs as seen against Kelfa or Jiren, do you mean a UI Sign if he appeared in the Broly movie, or do you mean UI Signs in the manga from the Moro or current arc?

As for the "Goku and Vegeta would have struggled in their Ultra forms as the ceiling" is an assumption that Vegeta even has UE since the movie was made before that form, same with Goku even having UI since this movie predates Moro. And this is assuming that Gohan knows how strong Goku and Vegeta currently are. Remember in Resurrection 'F', Gohan and Piccolo were shocked that Goku became so strong that he could fight final form Frieza without even going Super Saiyan.

"Not to mention he's witnessed Ultra Instinct in the anime continuity at this point, so he's definitely aware of Goku's ability to achieve the Mastered form."

Gohan would only be aware of TOP UI which would be years ago at this point, not whatever level of UI has currently since we have no clue what Gohan does or doesn't know about his dad.

I just think people think of continuity in the wrong way. We know where this falls in the timeline. The ambiguity is purposeful to maintain the freedom to add abilities and forms over the time it takes to create the movie. Even though we don't see Gohan specifically mention the Ultra forms or see them in use, based on the established timeline, WE know they exist at this point. Given the ambiguity and what we know to be true of Goku and Vegeta in terms of Ultra at this point along with the events of the movie, then there's every reason to think Gohan's statement applies by virtue of when he's saying it in the order of events. Sure they'll have to structure the story to give the statement truth, but you can't act as if it's meaningless until they specifically do something to contradict or retcon. At this point, we know Goku and Vegeta have at least achieved their Ultra forms at the level they have in the Granhola arc and according to Gohan they would have possibly struggled against Cell Max. No reason to think the latter statement isn't true simply because they didn't show or directly reference those forms given the definitive place this movie occurs on the timeline.

[HeroR]

I just think people think of continuity in the wrong way. We know where this falls in the timeline. The ambiguity is purposeful to maintain the freedom to add abilities and forms over the time it takes to create the movie. Even though we don't see Gohan specifically mention the Ultra forms or see them in use, based on the established timeline, WE know they exist at this point. Given the ambiguity and what we know to be true of Goku and Vegeta in terms of Ultra at this point along with the events of the movie, then there's every reason to think Gohan's statement applies by virtue of when he's saying it in the order of events. Sure they'll have to structure the story to give the statement truth, but you can't act as if it's meaningless until they specifically do something to contradict or retcon. At this point, we know Goku and Vegeta have at least achieved their Ultra forms at the level they have in the Granhola arc and according to Gohan they would have possibly struggled against Cell Max. No reason to think the latter statement isn't true simply because they didn't show or directly reference those forms given the definitive place this movie occurs on the timeline.

We know where it falls in the timeline, but the problem lies is we don't know where Goku and Vegeta are strength-wise within the timeline. The best we have is from years ago from where the movie starts.

"don't see Gohan specifically mention the Ultra forms or see them in use, based on the established timeline, WE know they exist at this point."

That is assuming if the movie takes into account the manga where UE exits, which doesn't exists within the anime or that Goku can control UI. Something we know he couldn't do in Broly and something that has only been shown in the manga.

"Gohan's statement applies by virtue of when he's saying it in the order of events"

We shouldn't assume such things since the movie was written before the events of the manga arcs so those things wouldn't be considered at all when Gohan made his statement. The only thing we know for certain is what happened in Broly.

"but you can't act as if it's meaningless until they specifically do something to contradict or retcon."

What retcon? The movie was written before those story events in the manga so a retcon can't occur. You have to remember Toriyama wrote this movie before Broly even hit theaters, which means it was being penned before Toyo finished Moro. He was still in the middle of the TOP.

"At this point, we know Goku and Vegeta have at least achieved their Ultra forms at the level they have in the Granhola arc"

The Granhola arc wasn't even an apple in Toyo or Toriyama's eye when Toriyama wrote the movie and the arc predates Goku learning to control UI.

"according to Gohan they would have possibly struggled against Cell Max."

We don't even know how much Gohan have seen of Goku or Vegeta's power. Like of this moment, Gohan has never seen UE.

"No reason to think the latter statement isn't true simply because they didn't show or directly reference those forms given the definitive place this movie occurs on the timeline."

This isn't about direct reference. The point this movie was written years before Granhola was even an idea along with UE and it predates Moro. So control UI or UE even existing wasn't an idea when Toriyama wrote the script so you can't just assumed they exist within the movie or that Gohan knows about UE since in the manga at the moment Gohan knows nothing about what Goku and Vegeta have been doing.

[Goku9001]

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole. The 2nd scan in particular explicitly compares to Jiren's battle power to a God of Destruction in a traditional sense.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

There's enough reason to believe that the movie cannot be reconciled with the anime and manga in its entirety. Take that as you will.

[HeroR]

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole. The 2nd scan in particular explicitly compares to Jiren's battle power to a God of Destruction in a traditional sense.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

There's enough reason to believe that the movie cannot be reconciled with the anime and manga in its entirety. Take that as you will.

From those who watched the movie, it wasn't said that Jiren wasn't that strong. It was said that his power felt completely overwhelming to Goku and Vegeta because he used the exact amount of energy as needed without being wasteful.

[Goku9001]

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole. The 2nd scan in particular explicitly compares to Jiren's battle power to a God of Destruction in a traditional sense.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

There's enough reason to believe that the movie cannot be reconciled with the anime and manga in its entirety. Take that as you will.

From those who watched the movie, it wasn't said that Jiren wasn't that strong. It was said that his power felt completely overwhelming to Goku and Vegeta because he used the exact amount of energy as needed without being wasteful.

Does it imply that the gap between Goku and Vegeta was relatively small?

[HeroR]

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole. The 2nd scan in particular explicitly compares to Jiren's battle power to a God of Destruction in a traditional sense.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

There's enough reason to believe that the movie cannot be reconciled with the anime and manga in its entirety. Take that as you will.

From those who watched the movie, it wasn't said that Jiren wasn't that strong. It was said that his power felt completely overwhelming to Goku and Vegeta because he used the exact amount of energy as needed without being wasteful.

Does it imply that the gap between Goku and Vegeta was relatively small?

To quote Cipher:

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

In short, it seemed people took Vegeta's words the wrong way since in both the anime and manga it was more or less said that Jiren was very calculated in his fighting. The movie just added that his calculated movements made his strength feel even more overwhelming. It's actually very similar to Granola vs Vegeta before UE when Granola was clearly stronger, but Vegeta bridge the power gap by being a better fighter. The same thing happened in the anime now that I remember. When Goku in base form faced off against Super Saiyan 2 Cali, he was winning and Champa complained that a Super Saiyan should be stronger than this. Whis then explained that while Cali was stronger she was a street fighter while Goku was a trained martial artist so he know how to avoid and parry everything Cali did, at least until Cali started to adapt.

[Goku9001]

From those who watched the movie, it wasn't said that Jiren wasn't that strong. It was said that his power felt completely overwhelming to Goku and Vegeta because he used the exact amount of energy as needed without being wasteful.

Does it imply that the gap between Goku and Vegeta was relatively small?

To quote Cipher:

Re: Jiren:

Spoiler:

To be clear, nothing says he isn't also stronger than Goku and Vegeta in a traditional sense. Just that his approach to movement and energy output helps account for how great the gap felt.

In short, it seemed people took Vegeta's words the wrong way since in both the anime and manga it was more or less said that Jiren was very calculated in his fighting. The movie just added that his calculated movements made his strength feel even more overwhelming. It's actually very similar to Granola vs Vegeta before UE when Granola was clearly stronger, but Vegeta bridge the power gap by being a better fighter. The same thing happened in the anime now that I remember. When Goku in base form faced off against Super Saiyan 2 Cali, he was winning and Champa complained that a Super Saiyan should be stronger than this. Whis then explained that while Cali was stronger she was a street fighter while Goku was a trained martial artist so he know how to avoid and parry everything Cali did, at least until Cali started to adapt.

Right. Seems like people were jumping the gun here.

[BWri]

Jiren's WHOLE POINT is that his own GoD cannot defeat him, so lessening his hype is not really going to happen.

Also: rewatching the movie: if I'm not understanding it wrong(My japanese is far from perfect), Vegeta describes Jiren's style as using only the exact amount of ki to deal a blow, only in the exact moment of contact, thus not wasting anything and being able to dish out relatively greater amount of power.

Which quite fits with a lot of stuff going for him in the anime especially: it's basically a partial Ultra Instinct.

That's my theory on how MSSJ works too, since it's supposed to be the most effective grade for SSJ1 but just comes off as the strongest one when used in combat or by power readings.

[ankokudaishogun]

Does it imply that the gap between Goku and Vegeta was relatively small?

No, he was flat stronger.

But he was ALSO a much better Ki Manipulator: which meant that while he might have been "just", say, 20% stronger than KK20 he could attack with an effective power over 80% greater.
...in short, he was Goku against Raditz, if Goku was ALSO stronger in raw power than his brother.

That's my theory on how MSSJ works too, since it's supposed to be the most effective grade for SSJ1 but just comes off as the strongest one when used in combat or by power readings.

I wholeheartedly agree with you: Grade-4 is maximizing efficiency of the Super Saiyan transformation so the user can use less power for anything that is not fighting moves and thus push more power in the attacks because they now "cost" relatively less.
Jiren's technique is the same, except on a greater level and applied to the whole fighting style, not just to manage a transformation efficiency.

and UI is the same thing, but on an instinctual, automatized, level.

[Mr Baggins]

I've thus far managed to avoid most movie spoilers except for the Jiren bit, so I guess I'll comment on that:

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole.

What's interesting here is that the manga has explicitly mentioned Jiren exceeding his God of Destruction in "combat skill alone", as well as his philosophy about not wasting movements.

Spoiler:

Fun fact: Jiren is talking to Vegeta when elaborating on his fighting style, so it makes sense that Vegeta would be the one to bring this up in the movie rather than Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I've thus far managed to avoid most movie spoilers except for the Jiren bit, so I guess I'll comment on that:

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole.

What's interesting here is that the manga has explicitly mentioned Jiren exceeding his God of Destruction in "combat skill alone", as well as his philosophy about not wasting movements.

Spoiler:

Fun fact: Jiren is talking to Vegeta when elaborating on his fighting style, so it makes sense that Vegeta would be the one to bring this up in the movie rather than Goku.

I was just about to bring that up. Toppo's line finally makes sense now.

[ankokudaishogun]

I was just realizing that Toyo's Jiren sure talks a lot, unlike Toriyama's vision of Jiren

[Xeno Goku Black]

Seen Super Hero.

Majin Buu is shown along with Goku and Vegeta as being a threat. Not Android 17. Gamma 2 seemingly defeated Piccolo with ease and yet Majin Buu was still considered a threat.

What do people make of that? Buu over Piccolo?

Where was it mentioned that Gamma 1 and 2 were on par with Goku and Vegeta? I've seen that said but didn't notice anything in the movie itself or seen it said in Ciphers summary.

Even forgetting the manga, if Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have defeated Cell Max would that be including Ultra Instinct?

[HeroR]

Seen Super Hero.

Majin Buu is shown along with Goku and Vegeta as being a threat. Not Android 17. Gamma 2 seemingly defeated Piccolo with ease and yet Majin Buu was still considered a threat.

What do people make of that? Buu over Piccolo?

Where was it mentioned that Gamma 1 and 2 were on par with Goku and Vegeta? I've seen that said but didn't notice anything in the movie itself or seen it said in Ciphers summary.

Even forgetting the manga, if Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have defeated Cell Max would that be including Ultra Instinct?

We don't know if Goku can even go UI in the movies. He couldn't in Broly even when Broly beat him up.

You shouldn't take the threat level too seriously since Mr. Satan is also considered a threat.

[Xeno Goku Black]

We don't know if Goku can even go UI in the movies. He couldn't in Broly even when Broly beat him up.

You shouldn't take the threat level too seriously since Mr. Satan is also considered a threat.

Seems weird that Goku wouldn't be able to go Ultra Instinct and Gohan not know about it. I don't think the movie would ignore the anime or manga to that kind of extent.