Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

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[Jack Bz]

Spoiler:

From the picture of Gas's transformation, it seems that Gas has aged quite a lot. So I am assuming that Elec's wish was slightly different in that was continuous: Gas will keep giving up lifespan to keep up with Goku, and he will eventually begin to suffer due to old age

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

Goku appears to be using Sign?

Goku: "With this, I can use my emotions like normal."

Goku finding a way to maintain his emotions in UI has been telegraphed as a necessary character step for him more or less since the ToP. (Not to mention a boon to readers, as a stoic-by-requirement Goku is little fun. I think it's couched well enough here in self-realization and backing up the cornerstone themes of DB/the Boo arc to not feel like a backslide. Your mileage may vary.)

We'll see how it plays out in the chapter, I guess. Unclear if it's a "new" form or not, but Toyotaro usually strives to make form distinctions clear, adding in distinct aura elements, shading, etc. If this looks like Sign at a pass, it's probably because it is.

Spoiler:

From the picture of Gas's transformation, it seems that Gas has aged quite a lot. So I am assuming that Elec's wish was slightly different in that was continuous: Gas will keep giving up lifespan to keep up with Goku, and he will eventually begin to suffer due to old age

Spoiler:

Seems likely, and would explain Elec's confidence that Gas' "#1" was on a different level from Granolah's. Granolah's exchange was fixed, whereas Gas' might have been sliding; always keeping him on top and taking the remaining lifespan off as needed. Goku and Vegeta surpassing him throughout the fight could then cause him to grow rapidly older.

[Shorty GZ2]

Spoiler:

Goku appears to be using Sign?

Goku: "With this, I can use my emotions like normal."

Goku finding a way to maintain his emotions in UI has been telegraphed as a necessary character step for him more or less since the ToP. (Not to mention a boon to readers, as a stoic-by-requirement Goku is little fun. I think it's couched well enough here in self-realization and backing up the cornerstone themes of DB/the Boo arc to not feel like a backslide. Your mileage may vary.)

We'll see how it plays out in the chapter, I guess. Unclear if it's a "new" form or not, but Toyotaro usually strives to make form distinctions clear, adding in distinct aura elements, shading, etc. If this looks like Sign at a pass, it's probably because it is.

Spoiler:

From the picture of Gas's transformation, it seems that Gas has aged quite a lot. So I am assuming that Elec's wish was slightly different in that was continuous: Gas will keep giving up lifespan to keep up with Goku, and he will eventually begin to suffer due to old age

Spoiler:

Seems likely, and would explain Elec's confidence that Gas' "#1" was on a different level from Granolah's. Granolah's exchange was fixed, whereas Gas' might have been sliding; always keeping him on top and taking the remaining lifespan off as needed. Goku and Vegeta surpassing him throughout the fight could then cause him to grow rapidly older.

Spoiler:

I thought the exact same thing after I saw Elec chastising Gas and him seemingly growing older/shrivelled as he powered up. It's a smart monkey's paw and a smart wish on Elec's part that takes into account the main flaw of Granolah's wish (being the strongest not being set in stone), but of course he underestimated the Ultra Saiyans' "waku waku dokkan zenkai power™" to keep up leapfrogging or potentially surpassing Gas.

As for Goku potentially going back to using a more refined/powered up version of UI Sign to keep up with Gas & better utilise his newly reaffirmed "Saiyan pride", I'm mixed on it. Manga Sign in the Moro arc is defined as an unstable stamina-drainer in which Goku himself says balancing that isn't his style, to which his later attempts to fight normally/his usual style w/ it have him get btfo'd by Moro (plus barely keeping up w/ Jiren in the previous arc), & it's only the perfected UI that can make the most headway. It'd be odd going back to Sign & sidelining the silver UI, since the prev arc was about trumpeting the latter as the truer/more effective version compared to the former as just an inefficient & insufficient stopgap, but then again, it's not the 1st time Toyo's done this reiteration of usefulness with a previously established weaker form (see, SSG used by Goku in U6 & Vegeta in FT).

[Mr Baggins]

Goku finding a way to maintain his emotions in UI has been telegraphed as a necessary character step for him more or less since the ToP.

I don't think that's true at all. The Tournament of Power was very clear about Goku needing to keep all emotions/distractions in check to even go toe-to-toe with Jiren, and the next arc was even clearer about that by framing Sign as a categorical failure.

I'll have to read the chapter in full to see where I stand on it, but the whole point of the previous two arcs was Goku having to rethink his approach to fights.

[HeroR]

Spoiler:

Goku appears to be using Sign?

Goku: "With this, I can use my emotions like normal."

Goku finding a way to maintain his emotions in UI has been telegraphed as a necessary character step for him more or less since the ToP. (Not to mention a boon to readers, as a stoic-by-requirement Goku is little fun. I think it's couched well enough here in self-realization and backing up the cornerstone themes of DB/the Boo arc to not feel like a backslide. Your mileage may vary.)

We'll see how it plays out in the chapter, I guess. Unclear if it's a "new" form or not, but Toyotaro usually strives to make form distinctions clear, adding in distinct aura elements, shading, etc. If this looks like Sign at a pass, it's probably because it is.

Spoiler:

From the picture of Gas's transformation, it seems that Gas has aged quite a lot. So I am assuming that Elec's wish was slightly different in that was continuous: Gas will keep giving up lifespan to keep up with Goku, and he will eventually begin to suffer due to old age

Spoiler:

Seems likely, and would explain Elec's confidence that Gas' "#1" was on a different level from Granolah's. Granolah's exchange was fixed, whereas Gas' might have been sliding; always keeping him on top and taking the remaining lifespan off as needed. Goku and Vegeta surpassing him throughout the fight could then cause him to grow rapidly older.

Spoiler:

I thought the exact same thing after I saw Elec chastising Gas and him seemingly growing older/shrivelled as he powered up. It's a smart monkey's paw and a smart wish on Elec's part that takes into account the main flaw of Granolah's wish (being the strongest not being set in stone), but of course he underestimated the Ultra Saiyans' "waku waku dokkan zenkai power™" to keep up leapfrogging or potentially surpassing Gas.

As for Goku potentially going back to using a more refined/powered up version of UI Sign to keep up with Gas & better utilise his newly reaffirmed "Saiyan pride", I'm mixed on it. Manga Sign in the Moro arc is defined as an unstable stamina-drainer in which Goku himself says balancing that isn't his style, to which his later attempts to fight normally/his usual style w/ it have him get btfo'd by Moro (plus barely keeping up w/ Jiren in tbe previous arc), & only the perfected UI being able to make the most headway. It'd be odd going back to it (Sign) & sidelining the silver UI since the prev arc was about trumpeting the the latter as the truer/more effective version compared to the former as just an inefficient/insufficient stopgap, but then again, it's not the 1st time Toyo's done this reiteration of usefulness with a previously established weaker form (see, SSG used by Goku in U6 & Vegeta in FT).

Except Sign isn’t just a weaker UI like Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It’s literally an incomplete form.

[Cipher]

I don't think that's true at all. The Tournament of Power was very clear about Goku needing to keep all emotions/distractions in check to even go toe-to-toe with Jiren, and the next arc was even clearer about that by framing Sign as a categorical failure.

I'll have to read the chapter in full to see where I stand on it, but the whole point of the previous two arcs was Goku having to rethink his approach to fights.

They were clear about his needing to throw away emotions he would normally make a strength in order to use UI. (Can't get too mad; can't get too worked up.)

The rethinking was the point of those moments, yes, but now that he's gotten up to a point of sufficient use, it's been made just as clear that having to stick to that kind of approach wasn't going to suit him long term. (The flipside of not being able to get too worked up is not being able to get too invested, which this arc has driven home at being at odds with who Goku is (and really, what DB as a series supports).)

I don't meant that the ToP set up anything surrounding UI as a problem. But it set up requirements for its use that you could easily see becoming one, and that's what this arc picked up on.

Spoiler:

As for the mechanics of Sign, I could easily accept being told that the greater acuity he has with UI in general now allows him to make more full, sustained use of Sign, and that he might elect to use it since it balances use of his emotional whims better with the principles of the technique, for an overall stronger-in-practice effect than the silver-haired form. Who knows. It isn't too late to recontextualize the silver-haired form as being a shortcut that was ultimately on the wrong path. Plus, hey! We could still end up with the tidier design choice of black-haired Goku as his strongest form. But we'll see!

[HeroR]

I don't think that's true at all. The Tournament of Power was very clear about Goku needing to keep all emotions/distractions in check to even go toe-to-toe with Jiren, and the next arc was even clearer about that by framing Sign as a categorical failure.

I'll have to read the chapter in full to see where I stand on it, but the whole point of the previous two arcs was Goku having to rethink his approach to fights.

They were clear about his needing to throw away emotions he would normally make a strength in order to use UI. (Can't get too mad; can't get too worked up.)

The rethinking was the point of those moments, yes, but now that he's gotten up to a point of sufficient use, it's been made just as clear that having to stick to that kind of approach wasn't going to suit him long term. (The flipside of not being able to get too worked up is not being able to get too invested, which this arc has driven home at being at odds with who Goku is (and really, what DB as a series supports).)

I don't meant that the ToP set up anything surrounding UI as a problem. But it set up requirements for its use that you could easily see becoming one, and that's what this arc picked up on.

I have to disagree with this. Merus was very invested to the point of being a character flaw, yet used UI perfectly.

That and the entire principal of that UI is based on isn’t about emotional investment so much as going with the flow and not letting thought interrupt your actions. The best comparison I can think of is how much investment do you put into walking and do you think about walking or you just do it.

[Cipher]

That and the entire principal of that UI is based on isn’t about emotional investment so much as going with the flow and not letting thought interrupt your actions. The best comparison I can think of is how much investment do you put into walking and do you think about walking or you just do it.

Spoiler:

The thrust this arc in particular has made painfully obvious, but that I think is baked in there as a ripe avenue even in earlier UI appearances, is that fighting doesn't really work as a "just do it" endeavor for Goku. Not for the character as we understand him, or as the series has embraced him (the guy who saves the day at the end of the original series by being an absolute goof--biting Majin Boo as Vegeta explains why his passion and drive for fighting always propelled him to the top/been rewarded), and not really from a reader's perspective either. Goku loves fighting, and getting caught up in the competition of it, and that spirit has always been at the cornerstone of the series. I'm not sure it ever really did him well to make the whole thing as thoughtless as walking or breathing, even if it had some success in certain contexts. But it isn't really on me to decide that. That's the case the series is/has been making. I just happen to agree that it's an astute route and one probably better in the long term.

Even if you aren't on board with it in earlier appearances, that's been the clear thrust/stance of everything through this story arc, from Whis' comments on Goku needing to make UI his own, to his over-reliance on practicing it leading to being hit by, and eventually beaten by, Granolah near the start of the fights, to Gas coming down on his lack of passion as he tries to pull it out during their fight, etc.

[Mr Baggins]

To be sure, Boo arc Goku is my favorite Goku. He's a selfish, inconsiderate asshole from start to finish in that story, and his myriad flaws make him interesting and fun.

It's also the reason Goku tossing Moro a senzu is one of my favorite parts of the previous arc. At first he tries to be heroic like the Galactic Patrol, but then goes "nah, screw that" and rips off his emblem while giving Moro one last chance at redemption because he wants to fight him again. Because that's who Son Goku, Earthling is and Son Goku, Galactic Patrolman isn't.

I never got the impression that completed Ultra Instinct sacrificed Goku's investment in fights. The story wasn't really pushing that angle until a few chapters ago.

[Alruneia]

About Gas, for now:

Spoiler:

If that panel was him getting old and not just a random new form of some kind, that's pretty interesting. I do remember reading some fan theories about Elec's wish for Gas worked like that, that he'd retroactively grow stronger to keep being the number 1 strongest, but more and more of his lifespan would be drained. That could actually be what's going on here, so good call by those guys if it is.
The amount of focus given to Granolah's wish reducing his lifespan to just three years did strongly suggest that it was going to play a factor at some point. It's not just an excuse to make the wish feel less undeserved or whatever, it's also a plot point, a setup that needs a payoff. I originally thought there was gonna be a big timeskip at some point that would match up with Granolah's three years, but this thing with Gas works as a payoff to the setup too.

About Goku:

Spoiler:

As for the mechanics of Sign, I could easily accept being told that the greater acuity he has with UI in general now allows him to make more full, sustained use of Sign, and that he might elect to use it since it balances use of his emotional whims better with the principles of the technique, for an overall stronger-in-practice effect than the silver-haired form. Who knows. It isn't too late to recontextualize the silver-haired form as being a shortcut that was ultimately on the wrong path. Plus, hey! We could still end up with the tidier design choice of black-haired Goku as his strongest form. But we'll see!

Spoiler:

This would be a fun development, though maybe not one that's gonna happen. I'd love to see Goku end up returning to base as his best form, though. Take that along with the end of the Moro arc, and suddenly Goku vs Uub in EoZ takes on a whole new light.

[Hellspawn28]

Goku will probably end up killing Gas. Goku's body count in DBS is not very high seeing that he only killed Freeza and Moro meanwhile other main opponents are either not evil or have been defeated by someone else (Gohan or Zeno). Moro was the first main villain since Buu that actually defeated. I don't think Super will have Goku keep on defeating every major villain afterwards because DBS does not do the same thing like GT did (so far).

[Xeogran]

Spoiler:

This would be a fun development, though maybe not one that's gonna happen. I'd love to see Goku end up returning to base as his best form, though. Take that along with the end of the Moro arc, and suddenly Goku vs Uub in EoZ takes on a whole new light.

People have been saying that since years and I still don't like it. That would be too much overhyping Uub who at that point was only an untrained kid. How do you even make villains stronger than that after this? People are so fixated on the EoZ part, they forgot the story still has to continue afterwards...

And Goku training in his strongest base with the now-lazy Goten would also be weird.

[HeroR]

That and the entire principal of that UI is based on isn’t about emotional investment so much as going with the flow and not letting thought interrupt your actions. The best comparison I can think of is how much investment do you put into walking and do you think about walking or you just do it.

Spoiler:

The thrust this arc in particular has made painfully obvious, but that I think is baked in there as a ripe avenue even in earlier UI appearances, is that fighting doesn't really work as a "just do it" endeavor for Goku. Not for the character as we understand him, or as the series has embraced him (the guy who saves the day at the end of the original series by being an absolute goof--biting Majin Boo as Vegeta explains why his passion and drive for fighting always propelled him to the top/been rewarded), and not really from a reader's perspective either. Goku loves fighting, and getting caught up in the competition of it, and that spirit has always been at the cornerstone of the series. I'm not sure it ever really did him well to make the whole thing as thoughtless as walking or breathing, even if it had some success in certain contexts. But it isn't really on me to decide that. That's the case the series is/has been making. I just happen to agree that it's an astute route and one probably better in the long term.

Even if you aren't on board with it in earlier appearances, that's been the clear thrust/stance of everything through this story arc, from Whis' comments on Goku needing to make UI his own, to his over-reliance on practicing it leading to being hit by, and eventually beaten by, Granolah near the start of the fights, to Gas coming down on his lack of passion as he tries to pull it out during their fight, etc.

Spoiler:

But that’s the heart of the problem, the principal that UI is based on doesn’t work like that. You can enjoy walking and running and still have a sense of zen. Heck, my teacher talked about this when I took martial arts class and biting was part of it funny enough. Namely my teacher talked about reaching the mindset of ‘I’m going home and you’re not’ during practice and how that plays into teaching Mushi. So what Toyo is doing here is extremely lame to me.

Not helping that UI in all media, including Dragon Ball Heroes, presented UI as reaching state where everything moves and flows on its own. Now Toyo is trying to rewrite it as, ‘well, Goku’s version of UI needs him to have emotional to account for his passion’ like real martial who achieved what UI is based on suppresses their passion or emotions when that isn’t the case. If anything it’s the opposite since it’s all about living and being in the moment.

In short, Goku isn’t some outliner to real world martial arts, especially the one I had the honor to meet, by being caught up in the competition or loving their craft.

If they were going to do this, they shouldn’t have given Goku a power-up based so firmly in real world martial arts.

[HeroR]

To be sure, Boo arc Goku is my favorite Goku. He's a selfish, inconsiderate asshole from start to finish in that story, and his myriad flaws make him interesting and fun.

It's also the reason Goku tossing Moro a senzu is one of my favorite parts of the previous arc. At first he tries to be heroic like the Galactic Patrol, but then goes "nah, screw that" and rips off his emblem while giving Moro one last chance at redemption because he wants to fight him again. Because that's who Son Goku, Earthling is and Son Goku, Galactic Patrolman isn't.

I never got the impression that completed Ultra Instinct sacrificed Goku's investment in fights. The story wasn't really pushing that angle until a few chapters ago.

The big problem with that scene is he could have done that without giving Moro a Senzu, something even Jaco pointed out. Especially when Moro wasn’t even mortally wounded and he was conscious.

[Krillin1994]

If Gas has aged though I'm not sure if it was due to Elec wishing for a continuous growth thing.

I had said before with Granolah during some of the earlier chapters that perhaps it would be an active wish that would continually adjust. But am unsure.

This is because of the dialogue from Elec about how he made the wish after Granolah, veggie and goku fought. Implying it was okay being a static thing since they did it most recently.

[Koitsukai]

I would've been fine if UI remained as it was introduced, a kinda zombie Goku fighting perfectly. It's a breath of fresh air compared to his usual rage and emotion-based fighting style, and the drawback -from a reader's perspective- being that Goku isn't enjoying the fight as much. So, he can beat you easily but he doesn't enjoy it, so sorta monkey's paw deal.

But yeah, I can see how that would eventually become a problem, or the need to evolve into something else. Like having your usual Goku using that technique, so having the perfect fighter enjoying it too.

So, he needs to be boring as fuck to get there, and now that he is there, that's not enough, he hits a wall, sorta, and there's more to it than just emptying his mind, now he can fill it with his own stuff again. So the cycle starts all over again, I guess, Whis did refer to UI as a ladder.

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

But that’s the heart of the problem, the principal that UI is based on doesn’t work like that. You can enjoy walking and running and still have a sense of zen. Heck, my teacher talked about this when I took martial arts class and biting was part of it funny enough. Namely my teacher talked about reaching the mindset of ‘I’m going home and you’re not’ during practice and how that plays into teaching Mushi. So what Toyo is doing here is extremely lame to me.

Not helping that UI in all media, including Dragon Ball Heroes, presented UI as reaching state where everything moves and flows on its own. Now Toyo is trying to rewrite it as, ‘well, Goku’s version of UI needs him to have emotional to account for his passion’ like real martial who achieved what UI is based on suppresses their passion or emotions when that isn’t the case. If anything it’s the opposite since it’s all about living and being in the moment.

In short, Goku isn’t some outliner to real world martial arts, especially the one I had the honor to meet, by being caught up in the competition or loving their craft.

If they were going to do this, they shouldn’t have given Goku a power-up based so firmly in real world martial arts.

Spoiler:

This is just going to have to be a spot where DB parts ways from real-world martial arts in favor of staying true to its own themes, perhaps, which have always championed drives and emotional whims and the goofiest, most single-minded fighters have always been the most rewarded. It is a fantasy, after all. (But then, is anything about UI actually realistic?)

I think you could also make the argument that UI is specifically about being "out" of the moment, whereas what Goku's trying to do (again) in taking his lesson from Bardock is be back in it--focused on what he's feeling and his drive in terms of the fight in front of him, rather than suppressing those feelings.

At any rate, the time to take issue with the storyline/series' handling of UI was probably at the beginning of the arc when it first raised the issue. This is just it paying off its own setup. But I think it's, after Gas' wish, probably the second most telegraphed beat of the arc. (And indeed those are really the only two so far, with an eventual Elec-Gas falling out on the horizon being the third, in what's been a pretty unpredictable run.)

[Mr Baggins]

something even Jaco pointed out.

Yes, it's almost as if the story was intentionally pointing out how impractical Goku can be for the sake of his own selfish whims.

Anyway, my point isn't whether it's an issue; it was an example to illustrate that Goku's enjoyment of fighting wasn't originally framed as being mutually exclusive with UI. I see it as yet another example of this arc inventing problems for the characters that they never actually exhibited to masquerade as "development", when in reality it's actually pretty regressive.

But again, I don't want to complain all that much about the leaks until the chapter is out. I don't have all the context, so this isn't a formal critique. One silver lining, no pun intended, is that Goku is at least using Sign to do this instead of the silver-haired form.

[Grimlock]

Now that the flashback part is over, Goku has developed a new technique.




Never has his shout been so powerful and true to his motivations!