Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Spoiler:

But that’s the heart of the problem, the principal that UI is based on doesn’t work like that. You can enjoy walking and running and still have a sense of zen. Heck, my teacher talked about this when I took martial arts class and biting was part of it funny enough. Namely my teacher talked about reaching the mindset of ‘I’m going home and you’re not’ during practice and how that plays into teaching Mushi. So what Toyo is doing here is extremely lame to me.

Not helping that UI in all media, including Dragon Ball Heroes, presented UI as reaching state where everything moves and flows on its own. Now Toyo is trying to rewrite it as, ‘well, Goku’s version of UI needs him to have emotional to account for his passion’ like real martial who achieved what UI is based on suppresses their passion or emotions when that isn’t the case. If anything it’s the opposite since it’s all about living and being in the moment.

In short, Goku isn’t some outliner to real world martial arts, especially the one I had the honor to meet, by being caught up in the competition or loving their craft.

If they were going to do this, they shouldn’t have given Goku a power-up based so firmly in real world martial arts.

Spoiler:

This is just going to have to be a spot where DB parts ways from real-world martial arts in favor of staying true to its own themes, perhaps, which have always championed drives and emotional whims and the goofiest, most single-minded fighters have always been the most rewarded. It is a fantasy, after all. (But then, is anything about UI actually realistic?)

I think you could also make the argument that UI is specifically about being "out" of the moment, whereas what Goku's trying to do (again) in taking his lesson from Bardock is be back in it--focused on what he's feeling and his drive in terms of the fight in front of him, rather than suppressing those feelings.

At any rate, the time to take issue with the storyline/series' handling of UI was probably at the beginning of the arc when it first raised the issue. This is just it paying off its own setup. But I think it's, after Gas' wish, probably the second most telegraphed beat of the arc. (And indeed those are really the only two so far, with an eventual Elec-Gas falling out on the horizon being the third, in what's been a pretty unpredictable run.)

Spoiler:

As someone who did studied martial arts for several yes, UI was realistic. It was exaggerated to the 11th the same way Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon exaggerated the heck out of everything, but the foundation is based on martial arts. Which is why I’m annoyed Toyo seems to be backtracking for what feels like the sake of given Goku a reason why he hasn’t ‘mastered’ UI because he made UI ‘too perfect’ last arc.

UI, at least the principal behind it, isn’t about being out of the moment. It’s the exact opposite. It’s being in the moment to the exclusion of everything else. Whis in 129 of the anime actually explained it very well.

So yeah, it’s lame to me.

something even Jaco pointed out.

Yes, it's almost as if the story was intentionally pointing out how impractical Goku can be for the sake of his own selfish whims.

Anyway, my point isn't whether it's an issue; it was an example to illustrate that Goku's enjoyment of fighting wasn't originally framed as being mutually exclusive with UI. I see it as yet another example of this arc inventing problems for the characters that they never actually exhibited to masquerade as "development", when in reality it's actually pretty regressive.

But again, I don't want to complain all that much about the leaks until the chapter is out. I don't have all the context, so this isn't a formal critique. One silver lining, no pun intended, is that Goku is at least using Sign to do this instead of the silver-haired form.

Giving Moro a Senzu wasn’t selfish. It was just stupid since the same result would have been achieved without it. Like Goku in Resurrection ‘F’ did the same thing and spared a tired Frieza and offered to fight him again when he mastered his Golden form. He didn’t heal Frieza. What more he didn’t want to fight Moro again, he wanted him to go back to prison peacefully.

In short, Resurrection ‘F’ did this plot point better.

The main problem is rewriting UI as a state of emotionless, mindless when you’re on full auto-pilot, when what UI is based on isn’t that. Like anyone who gets in the zone or reached a point still have emotions and do feel enjoyment.

Goku using Signs is another issue when it was called an unstable, energy sucking form just last arc and when Goku did put his emotions in that form Moro kicked his teeth in.

[pepd]

UI, at least the principal behind it, isn’t about being out of the moment. It’s the exact opposite. It’s being in the moment to the exclusion of everything else.

True, but MnG is not just the principle exaggerated, is supposed to be the pinnacle of it, almost absolute; so I don't see the problem if Goku goes with a less extreme MnG variation, which allows for more natural use, specially given that, while it didn't necessarily conflict with Goku's enjoyment of the combat, it didn't really facilitate its portrayal, which was a shame because this is such a core and fun characteristic of him and DB.
Of course, it will depend on the execution, but since we are talking about it knowing almost nothing, yeah.

Either way, it shouldn't be a surprise since the introduction of WnG.

[Mr Baggins]

Giving Moro a Senzu wasn’t selfish. It was just stupid since the same result would have been achieved without it.

I don't think you're getting it. Goku's dialogue is clear that he did that to demonstrate the gap between them, as a way of convincing Moro only training would help him overcome that gap. He wanted him to go back peacefully so he could one day fight him again, but he also wanted to show him that sucking the life from planets wasn't the answer to getting stronger.

Whether you personally like what the chapter tried to get across isn't why I brought it up, so I'm not going to derail this thread any further talking about it. I wasn't particularly asking for your opinion.

[Dragmobot12]

It would have been great if they brought Yoshitaka Nagayama in to write an arc for the DBS manga alongside Toyotaro. (Toriyama could still supervise tho).
But the thing is, Nagayama never disappoints, he knows how to tell a story from start to finish, and his ideas are quite impressive, I know he sometimes has to put in a lot of nonsense and all that craziness for the sake of toys, but I personally believe that if he had taken it seriously he would have written something absolutely thrilling. On the other hand, Toyotaro is the best Dragon Ball manga artist at the moment, while Nagayama is not as creative in character designs, Toyo is someone who always creates something unique. In my opinion, their cooperation would be absolutely breathtaking.

[HeroR]

Giving Moro a Senzu wasn’t selfish. It was just stupid since the same result would have been achieved without it.

I don't think you're getting it. Goku's dialogue is clear that he did that to demonstrate the gap between them, as a way of convincing Moro only training would help him overcome that gap. He wanted him to go back peacefully so he could one day fight him again, but he also wanted to show him that sucking the life from planets wasn't the answer to getting stronger.

Whether you personally like what the chapter tried to get across isn't why I brought it up, so I'm not going to derail this thread any further talking about it. I wasn't particularly asking for your opinion.

"Goku's dialogue is clear that he did that to demonstrate the gap between them, as a way of convincing Moro only training would help him overcome that gap"

Which is fine, but that was honestly done better in Resurrection 'F'. I would even go as far this was done better back on Namek when Goku got on Frieza for being so out of shape that he could only maintain his full power for a little over a minute. That and Goku didn't want to rematch Moro since he wanted him back in prison where he would eventually be executed.

So overall, the Senzu simply wasn't necessary.

UI, at least the principal behind it, isn’t about being out of the moment. It’s the exact opposite. It’s being in the moment to the exclusion of everything else.

True, but MnG is not just the principle exaggerated, is supposed to be the pinnacle of it, almost absolute; so I don't see the problem if Goku goes with a less extreme MnG variation, which allows for more natural use, specially given that, while it didn't necessarily conflict with Goku's enjoyment of the combat, it didn't really facilitate its portrayal, which was a shame because this is such a core and fun characteristic of him and DB.
Of course, it will depend on the execution, but since we are talking about it knowing almost nothing, yeah.

Either way, it shouldn't be a surprise since the introduction of WnG.

I have disagree since UI was never shown as absolute. Remember, Jiren in all media matched UI despite never having it himself and we know that the Grand Priest mops Whis who has UI.

That and I think people are mixing enjoyment with excitement. You can enjoy something and not be overly excited, which is what marathon runners do. In fact, being excited when fighting is actually a negative.

[Grimlock]

I know he sometimes has to put in a lot of nonsense

Care to provide a few examples?

while Nagayama is not as creative in character designs,

How can you tell? What characters have been personally created by him?

[Dragmobot12]

I know he sometimes has to put in a lot of nonsense

Care to provide a few examples?

while Nagayama is not as creative in character designs,

How can you tell? What characters have been personally created by him?

Honestly, the only bad character design from Nagayama so far is Hearts. And yes, SDBH is a promotional anime/manga, you literally have Bardock fighting Bardock and all that messy stuff, but it's not that frequent, so that's good, I don't have a problem with it anyway because it still doesn't change my point, Nagayama to me is a great candidate for a DBS writer.

[Berserker1921]

I am just upset that Vegeta is being disrespected hard again. I know we haven’t seen the whole chapter yet. But yeah, it doesn’t look good for the prince. I knew this was coming. I was hoping that it would be a 3 vs 1 (Saiyans/Granolah vs Gas). But as I expected…goku unlocks another transformation or ui2. And gets the win. Or gas burns out.

I just wish for once that it would be a team win. At least that. I am just tired with goku scoring the victories or get the edge over the bad guy cause he is the main character.

[Alkiser]

But seriously, looks like Uchida was misinformed when he said the new arc will start soon, back in the December of 2021.
7+ months of wait isn't soon.
I guess the Gas fight is the climax of this arc, but that also went through many rounds before both parties started using their full power.

There's a chance that the arc was extended in response to the delay of DBS:SH. Even if not, his statement was intended to draw anticipation for the new arc. Well...you tell me how you think that worked out.

Naive talk that because of Super Hero the manga would get longer, the whole script for the manga was already finished in December 2021. Following this stupid line of thinking the manga didn't patch up Bardock's plot, Gas wish or Zuno's questions.Because if it was going to end in April it would have been so rushed that we wouldn't know anything itd.

[Xeogran]

Remember when this arc was about Granolah and his grudge on Saiyans/Frieza

I wish it stayed that way. He had an actually good design, strong motivation, cool techniques. Then Monaito came with his Bardock-glorifying backstory and he made 180 turn immediately. And now we're stuck fighting a random henchman for like a year straight. Sigh.

[HeroR]

Remember when this arc was about Granolah and his grudge on Saiyans/Frieza

I wish it stayed that way. He had an actually good design, strong motivation, cool techniques. Then Monaito came with his Bardock-glorifying backstory and he made 180 turn immediately. Sigh.

Granolah was honestly boring too since he came across as a brat. Really says something that a person who survived a genocide can be so unsympathetic.

[Block88]

Remember when this arc was about Granolah and his grudge on Saiyans/Frieza

I wish it stayed that way. He had an actually good design, strong motivation, cool techniques. Then Monaito came with his Bardock-glorifying backstory and he made 180 turn immediately. Sigh.

Granolah was honestly boring too since he came across as a brat. Really says something that a person who survived a genocide can be so unsympathetic.

I fail too see how he was unsympathetic

[mute_proxy]

What bugs me is that the Heeters felt like secondary villains from the get go, and that feeling still hasn't changed, even though the story is telling us they're the big bad of the arc.

[HeroR]

I fail too see how he was unsympathetic

The biggest one is that despite saying that he wants revenge against Frieza he wasted a bunch of time beating up Goku and Vegeta despite all the evidences that they didn't work for Frieza. Instead of listening to Oatmeal, Granolah took him off and bragged about how he's now the 'strongest in the universe'. And probably the biggest weird moment he was willing to kill himself against Vegeta and said that his revenge against Frieza have to wait until he goes to hell. Like...why? Especially when Granolah himself acknowledged that Vegeta and Goku were too young to be part of the invasion that killed his people, but he's still willing to die against Vegeta instead of going after the guy who was personally responsible.

Overall, Granolah just comes off as some dumb kid and the story really did nothing to make me feel sorry for him outside of the backstory. And even then the story test my patience with how Granolah acted. To quote a line from Xena; "Do you know what I think? You wanted them to die so you'd have a reason to be a bitch."

[Skar]

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

[HeroR]

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

Signs is interesting is because Toyo decided to change what the form was in the anime from the staff who created the form. Namely, Sign was an incomplete form used to buildup the climax of Goku getting full UI, so by all accounts Signs served it purpose and wasn't needed anymore.

Then Toyo decided to give it the Super Saiyan God treatment, except it makes less sense since Signs in the manga was called an unstable energy drained and was just the first stepped into UI, while at the anime version was more energy safe since Goku didn't explode after overused even if its attack power wasn't the best. So depending on how this chapter goes Toyo would have to retcon what he wrote just last arc. And it all seems to have happened because Toyo realized too late that he made Goku 'mastered' UI too fast, especially when Goku held his own against UI 73 Moro who realistically should stomped Beerus.

[batistabus]

Naive talk that because of Super Hero the manga would get longer, the whole script for the manga was already finished in December 2021. Following this stupid line of thinking the manga didn't patch up Bardock's plot, Gas wish or Zuno's questions.Because if it was going to end in April it would have been so rushed that we wouldn't know anything itd.

lol.

Dragon Ball is a massive multimedia IP with releases coordinated based on some internal strategy. If the next arc contains spoilers from DBS:SH, or it takes place after the movie, or whatever, there might be reason to prolong the finale.

It's easy enough to stretch out a Dragon Ball story with fighting, and there's been plenty of that the last few chapters. The outline for the arc has been set for a while, but Toyotaro still needs to draw the manga every month. Things can be, and likely are, changed/shifted/padded on the fly.

Again, not saying this definitely happened, and I'm not saying the arc was supposed to end in April.

[pepd]

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

Or he will master it in base when Toriyama goes with it, that is what it seems they are going with, given Whis' comment.
Which is funny because that makes the white transformation kind of like Sign, making Sign redundant. At least in the anime, and until now in the manga, where it seems to be also more versatile.

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

So depending on how this chapter goes Toyo would have to retcon what he wrote just last arc. And it all seems to.

Spoiler:

Goku comments on the time limit of the form on this chapter.

[Skar]

Or he will master it in base when Toriyama goes with it, that is what it seems they are going with, given Whis' comment.
Which is funny because that makes the white transformation kind of like Sign, making Sign redundant. At least in the anime, and until now in the manga, where it seems to be also more versatile.

I wouldn't mind that happening. It would fit with what Old Kai said about transformations. Also how the strongest beings in the multiverse can access their full power without transforming. After mastering his final form, Goku might learn to use it all in base and not have to waste any energy on the transformations themselves.

[HeroR]

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

Or he will master it in base when Toriyama goes with it, that is what it seems they are going with, given Whis' comment.
Which is funny because that makes the white transformation kind of like Sign, making Sign redundant. At least in the anime, and until now in the manga, where it seems to be also more versatile.

Since Toriyama didn't design Omen, he probably wouldn't care how it's used. Toyotaro might have Goku reuse it until Toriyama decides for Goku to fully master UI. It's weird the manga already has him transform into UI at will but I guess he'll forget by the time Toriyama intends for it to happen.

So depending on how this chapter goes Toyo would have to retcon what he wrote just last arc. And it all seems to.

Spoiler:

Goku comments on the time limit of the form on this chapter.

Isn’t just the time limit, Sign was outright called unstable and everyone said Goku used it wrong against Moro when he put emotions behind it. So Toyo did walk back what he said just the arc before. Not helping that normal UI has a time limit when that didn’t seem to be the case in Moro.

Also we don’t know what Toriyama wants with UI when he avoided the form in both of the movies he wrote.