Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

That’s a matter of perspective, then. Because from mine, the manga shows better how Jiren adjusts to the situation, he faces a little surprise and then one-shots. It’s not to say the anime doesn’t have any of that, he usually goes with a very direct approach in his fights, but sometimes I feel he goes too overboard with his consecutive normal punches. That’s a lot of wasted movement.

And while we’re on this perspective subjetive, I think what Vegeta says about Jiren could be said about the gimmick he used in his fight against Goku Black in chapter #22. From Goku Black’s perspective, Vegeta was rapidly increasing speed and power without notice, making his movements very difficult to read. And to that effect Vegeta’s Blue form wasn’t so far off from Goku Black’s Rosé.

[ankokudaishogun]

sometimes I feel he goes too overboard with his consecutive normal punches.

of course he does:
Anime Jiren's modus operandi is matching his enemy, tanking\avoiding everything and then utterly crash them.
Complete physical AND psychological defeat.

While Manga Jiren's is "maximum efficiency pragmatism".
No way in hell Manga Jiren would have waited for Goku to charge the Genkidama, for example.


Manga Jiren and Anime Jiren are really two different characters. I cannot decide if it's interesting or just a mess.

I think what Vegeta says about Jiren could be said about the gimmick he used in his fight against Goku Black in chapter #22.

Oh, absolutely. It's the same thing as the God-Blue Switch, evolved to the limit.
A comparison would be a Base-BlueEvo Switch for every single move.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well Toyotaro does bring up stamina issues in literally every saga, so he’ll certainly have a ball with this now.

[picc]

I'm making a power hierarchy list, and assuming the movies continuity has all power references referring to the TOP era DB and DBS: Broly.

Meaning Gamma 1 and 2 are about the same power as TOP SSJB Goku and Vegeta, since that's where they capped in the Broly movie.

Using this, I'm placing Final Gohan in the current manga continuity. I have him above current SSJB Goku even using ultra instinct, but still below UI Omen.

Orange Piccolo I have above SSJB Goku, but not by a mile.

I also have current Blue Goku and Vegeta far, far above their TOP levels, obviously.

How does that sound? Open to other viewpoints.

[Berserker1921]

I'm making a power hierarchy list, and assuming the movies continuity has all power references referring to the TOP era DB and DBS: Broly.

Meaning Gamma 1 and 2 are about the same power as TOP SSJB Goku and Vegeta, since that's where they capped in the Broly movie.

Using this, I'm placing Final Gohan in the current manga continuity. I have him above current SSJB Goku even using ultra instinct, but still below UI Omen.

Orange Piccolo I have above SSJB Goku, but not by a mile.

I also have current Blue Goku and Vegeta far, far above their TOP levels, obviously.

How does that sound? Open to other viewpoints.

I agree, I have the Gammas around ToP SsjB Goku/Vegeta level. More or less.

I have Orange Piccolo around SsjBE/GoD Toppo level.

And as for Gohan…I personally have him around MUI Goku from Moro arc. But that’s a high ball estimate. Low ball? Omen 3 Goku from ToP.

[Goku9001]

It definitely does seem like the movie aligns more closely to the manga's continuity rather than the anime given the emphasis on combat skill and Jiren's ability command his body effectively under instinct. That remains consistent with how Roshi was portrayed. Android 17 couldn't sense ki so he could only go based on what he saw. From what he could tell, Roshi seemed to be a very powerful fighter but we are told through his exchange with one of the Pride Troopers that he had an abysmally low battle power. In spite of this, his combat skill enabled him to overpower him easily. We also see how moving skillfully under instinct aided Roshi in adapting to Jiren effortlessly. There are other examples, but it certainly does seem like combat experience has a profound effect on a user's battle power as a whole. There's a few issues such as the emphasis on Jiren remaining nonchalant up until his official battle with Ultra Instinct Omen Goku but there is certainly a case to be made that the gap "not being that big" could extend to something like 4-5x and that would seem fairly reasonable.

The only caveats to all of this from what I can tell is through Toei's interpretation on Jiren's battle power on top of the manga's implications of how far Goku and Vegeta had progressed. Goku and Vegeta certainly are learning how to move instinctively in a more natural sense much like Jiren has but it's patently obvious through their experiences in the Moro and Granolah arc that they've exceeded way beyond Jiren and Broly's combat abilities. That's in contrast to the manga where Goku and Vegeta both believe Jiren and an untrained Broly still remain as proper benchmarks. In the anime's case, there is a constant emphasis on Jiren's battle power from the moment Jiren begins to overwhelm Goku and his Genkidama to his final battle with Goku and Vegeta where he continues unveiling more and more of his power as the fight progresses. Whis explicitly compares Jiren to the rumors he had heard once he had come to realize the potential power Jiren was concealing based on how effortlessly he was forcing back Goku's Genkidama. There's a few instances where combat skill has made a huge impact such as Base Goku's battle with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifa. Outside of that, combat skill seems to extend more towards martial arts experience which doesn't contribute to overall power.

I think the anime would need quite a bit of an overhaul and the manga's version would need to briefly account for the implications made in the Moro and Granolah but it's not as bad as I originally thought. And I quite like how Jiren and Broly are somewhat relevant to eachother. While Broly possesses power in a traditional sense exceeding that of a God of Destruction, Jiren more than makes up for it with his instinctive, refined, and explosive approach to battling. It all blends well with what the novelization tells us. SSJ Broly let alone FPSSJ Broly exceeds Jiren in power in a traditional sense but Jiren can keep up in terms of combat skill.

[Cipher]

1) Hit also has the Time-Slip in the manga.

He does have it but, to my recalling(which might be wrong) does not USE it against Jiren.
He fights as a regular martial artist. Not the best way to portray Jiren's superior skill... mostly because Toyotaro's regular fight scenes are kinda shit.

He used it against Jiren. (Sorry, “Time Lag” might have been what Viz went with; couldn’t recall.) Jiren then lures him to the edge of the stage and moves fast enough to overcome it and knock him out.

I don't quite agree it has been portrayed that way in the manga.

The anime did a much better job in portraying Jiren countering attacks and being extremely precise in his fighting, something Toyotaro IMHO did fail to adequately portray in the manga

To each their own then. Just stuff like the Hit, Kame Sen’nin and SSBE Vegeta scenes alone sell that sufficiently for me. (Finishing each in one attack once he adjusts to them, and not appearing to use any more power than is necessary to do so.)

[Hugo Boss]

DBS manga chapter #85 spoilers…

Spoiler:

We don’t have the whole picture yet, but I would like to discuss what seems to be Goku’s answer to extract the best of ultra instinct at the moment.

In this new chapter everything points to the Sign form, which enables him to fight without suppressing his heart, at least not completely, suggesting a better compromise between autonomous movement and his personal drive and personality.

Since this is an all-compassing strength topic, I would like to know if this is really the most reasonable direction Toyotaro could undergo.

In Moro Arc, Ultra Instinct Sign was no match for Moro, whereas in his completed version Goku’s durability was so far above Moro’s that his belly broke Moro’s wrist. So, between a form in which Goku still keeps some of his character traits and one in which he has complete control over them, there seems to be a large gap.

How do you see him overlapping that gap by doing the reverse path? Is Goku’s heart really that strong as a plot device? Or maybe Goku is up to something?

[ankokudaishogun]

I think that, more simply, UI-Sign is "enough" while not consuming too much energy like UI-Complete

I also think Vegeta might drop UE by the end of this or next arc at latest

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong and fast is Dyspo, roughly? His speed is much higher than his power, but apparently still nowhere near Golden Freeza’s. His power is even lower (presumably by many times given the emphasis given to his speed), but still enough to get Hit in severe pain.

[ZombieVito]

How strong and fast is Dyspo, roughly? His speed is much higher than his power, but apparently still nowhere near Golden Freeza’s. His power is even lower (presumably by many times given the emphasis given to his speed), but still enough to get Hit in severe pain.

Power wise he's SS tier.

[HeroR]

I think that, more simply, UI-Sign is "enough" while not consuming too much energy like UI-Complete

I also think Vegeta might drop UE by the end of this or next arc at latest

In the manga Sign was called an unstable stamina drain. So it not consuming too much energy would be a retcon.

[Cipher]

Spoiler:

The stamina issues are apparently maintained. Goku says he doesn't have long.

We just have to take the manga at its word--that with his current level of training in UI (it's been a minute since Moro), Sign pulls together enough benefits from both UI and Goku's own comfort/drives from his emotions to give it a practical edge over the silver-haired form. This wasn't the case against Moro, but Goku's been through more both on a UI-practice front and emotional reflection one since then. Passion > intentional dispassion. At least for Goku.

[Noah]

Considering FP SSJ Broly is somewhat on par/below Blue Gogeta, you guys think that with proper training and if he achieved God, Blue, Evolved, UI or UE he would be takeon with the likes of Beerus, Vados and The Grand Priest?

[Skar]

Considering FP SSJ Broly is somewhat on par/below Blue Gogeta, you guys think that with proper training and if he achieved God, Blue, Evolved, UI or UE he would be takeon with the likes of Beerus, Vados and The Grand Priest?

It's possible Broly being a mutated Saiyan that more of his overall potential is accessible with regular ki so gaining God ki wouldn't give as much of a boost. Goku and Vegeta might've hit a plateau with regular ki around Buu tier and needed god ki to vastly surpass that level.

I think GoD tier or between a GoD and Angel might be the limit of what a mortal could achieve even if they're an unnatural mutant. An Ultra Instinct fusion might be the way Goku and Vegeta would come close to Whis but I have a feeling they would still be weaker than him.

[larzooma]

I'm making a power hierarchy list, and assuming the movies continuity has all power references referring to the TOP era DB and DBS: Broly.

Meaning Gamma 1 and 2 are about the same power as TOP SSJB Goku and Vegeta, since that's where they capped in the Broly movie.

Using this, I'm placing Final Gohan in the current manga continuity. I have him above current SSJB Goku even using ultra instinct, but still below UI Omen.

Orange Piccolo I have above SSJB Goku, but not by a mile.

I also have current Blue Goku and Vegeta far, far above their TOP levels, obviously.

How does that sound? Open to other viewpoints.

How, if you place Gamma 1 and 2 at ToP SSJB Goku and Vegeta can you place Orange Piccolo slightly above? He literally dominates Gamma 2 by showing no reaction to his attacks and ending the fight with a single hit. Even placing him at SSJE or GoD Toppo, as someone else suggested, means that those two characters would have been able to tank attacks from SSJB Vegeta and incapacitate him with a single blow?

This is the Piccolo hate I was talking about in one of my earlier posts. If you saw Goku or Vegeta react to a character at a certain level you would place them well above that level. No doubt. The mere fact Piccolo showed to be on a whole different level in his Orange form than a SSJB level or above character shows his strength greatly increased. I'd say most definitely above SSJBE or GoD Toppo given how they fared against SSJB level characters in the ToP. Where he falls above that all depends on where we find Cell Max eventually and Final Gohan since he's cleary below them.

[picc]

I'm making a power hierarchy list, and assuming the movies continuity has all power references referring to the TOP era DB and DBS: Broly.

Meaning Gamma 1 and 2 are about the same power as TOP SSJB Goku and Vegeta, since that's where they capped in the Broly movie.

Using this, I'm placing Final Gohan in the current manga continuity. I have him above current SSJB Goku even using ultra instinct, but still below UI Omen.

Orange Piccolo I have above SSJB Goku, but not by a mile.

I also have current Blue Goku and Vegeta far, far above their TOP levels, obviously.

How does that sound? Open to other viewpoints.

How, if you place Gamma 1 and 2 at ToP SSJB Goku and Vegeta can you place Orange Piccolo slightly above? He literally dominates Gamma 2 by showing no reaction to his attacks and ending the fight with a single hit. Even placing him at SSJE or GoD Toppo, as someone else suggested, means that those two characters would have been able to tank attacks from SSJB Vegeta and incapacitate him with a single blow?

This is the Piccolo hate I was talking about in one of my earlier posts. If you saw Goku or Vegeta react to a character at a certain level you would place them well above that level. No doubt. The mere fact Piccolo showed to be on a whole different level in his Orange form than a SSJB level or above character shows his strength greatly increased. I'd say most definitely above SSJBE or GoD Toppo given how they fared against SSJB level characters in the ToP. Where he falls above that all depends on where we find Cell Max eventually and Final Gohan since he's cleary below them.

I meant Orange Piccolo slightly above current Blue Goku and Vegeta, who are far superior to ToP era Blue Goku and Vegeta. Relax man hahaha, my username is literally taken from Piccolo, there's absolutely no hate present.

[larzooma]

I'm making a power hierarchy list, and assuming the movies continuity has all power references referring to the TOP era DB and DBS: Broly.

Meaning Gamma 1 and 2 are about the same power as TOP SSJB Goku and Vegeta, since that's where they capped in the Broly movie.

Using this, I'm placing Final Gohan in the current manga continuity. I have him above current SSJB Goku even using ultra instinct, but still below UI Omen.

Orange Piccolo I have above SSJB Goku, but not by a mile.

I also have current Blue Goku and Vegeta far, far above their TOP levels, obviously.

How does that sound? Open to other viewpoints.

How, if you place Gamma 1 and 2 at ToP SSJB Goku and Vegeta can you place Orange Piccolo slightly above? He literally dominates Gamma 2 by showing no reaction to his attacks and ending the fight with a single hit. Even placing him at SSJE or GoD Toppo, as someone else suggested, means that those two characters would have been able to tank attacks from SSJB Vegeta and incapacitate him with a single blow?

This is the Piccolo hate I was talking about in one of my earlier posts. If you saw Goku or Vegeta react to a character at a certain level you would place them well above that level. No doubt. The mere fact Piccolo showed to be on a whole different level in his Orange form than a SSJB level or above character shows his strength greatly increased. I'd say most definitely above SSJBE or GoD Toppo given how they fared against SSJB level characters in the ToP. Where he falls above that all depends on where we find Cell Max eventually and Final Gohan since he's cleary below them.

I meant Orange Piccolo slightly above current Blue Goku and Vegeta, who are far superior to ToP era Blue Goku and Vegeta. Relax man hahaha, my username is literally taken from Piccolo, there's absolutely no hate present.

Ah ok sorry I thought you were talking about the same era. I still think he's higher given where this movie falls on the timeline, but I don't think we can know until we see something to substantiate or dismiss Gohan's comments at the end.

Didn't mean to be on the attack, but I've seen some crazy takes on Piccolo's place among everyone now. It's like a knee jerk reaction to the thought he may be able to contend with some of the strongest characters we've seen in Super. It's not like he didn't stay up there with the Sayians for a long time until they decided to keep him behind for some reason.

[Berserker1921]

He turns his gaze toward Vegeta, who was sitting silently on a rock.
"Come on, cut it out already. If you keep on staying still for so long you'll get out of shape." Goku said as he slouched towards him and raised his index finger.
Ever since he had come to Beerus's planet, Vegeta did not once participate in any sparring sessions. All he did was constantly meditate.
"You know that out there there's lots of amazing guys like Jiren, and Broly here, right?"
But Vegeta continued to keep his eyes closed and just replied indifferently "Shut up. Don't interfere. This is also training..."
"Don't you lie to me. There's no way you can call that training!"
"You know nothing..."
After being told so, Goku tilts his heed in a moody way "What do you mean?"
Continuing to keep his eyes closed, Vegeta replies calmly "That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big."
"Huh?" Goku could not believe the words that Vegeta had just muttered.
It was unfathomable that there was no difference in power between them and Jiren, who had shown overwhelming power in the Tournament of Power, an event that put the survival of Universe 7's Earth on the line.
"There's no waste at all in the way that he uses his power. Haven't you noticed?" Vegeta said as he opened his eyes and slowly looked at Goku.
"Even during the midst of a battle, he keeps both his body and spirit relaxed at all times with the exception of the one instance in which he attacks."
"Really now?" Was something like that actually possible in the midst of an extreme situation? Facing Goku's distrustful eyes, Vegeta continued.
"Starting an attack all of a sudden prevents it from being read by your opponent and it also generates a huge explosive output. It also helps in preserving your stamina."
"Is that so?"
"Jiren is most likely doing it instinctively. That is why for someone like me, who can't do the same, training inside your mind is the first step to take."
As Vegeta closes his eyes once more, Goku tilts his head in distrust. What he had just heard was hard to believe.
-Jiren was overwhelmingly powerful. There are still plenty of strong beings scattered across the universes. That is why I need to train harder and become stronger as well-
As these thoughts raced through Goku's mind, the sound of someone clapping their hands came out of the blue. It was Beerus's attendant, Whis, who was slowly descending from the air.
"Marvelous! This is simply marvelous, Vegeta. You managed to discover how it works." Whis said as he approached Vegeta with a huge smile.
"Simply training your body all willy-nilly does not constitute training."
"Heh!" A smug Vegeta let out a little chuckle after being praised.
"Still, it took you long enough to finally notice."
After being told so shortly after, his expression changes to one of disgust.
"It seems like Goku still hasn't understood what it's all about."

That’s an excerpt from DBS Superhero novel. And it’s about Jiren again. I am sorry.

But I had this theory. What if Jiren wasn’t that much stronger than the saiyans. But with mastery over his perfect ki control, he was able to augment his power and attacks to greater heights. So, kind of like he found a way for a pistol to use a 50 cal?

Basically Jiren can multiple his ki briefly when fighting. Is this a decent theory? Basically turns a bullet into a rifle round?

[Berserker1921]

He turns his gaze toward Vegeta, who was sitting silently on a rock.
"Come on, cut it out already. If you keep on staying still for so long you'll get out of shape." Goku said as he slouched towards him and raised his index finger.
Ever since he had come to Beerus's planet, Vegeta did not once participate in any sparring sessions. All he did was constantly meditate.
"You know that out there there's lots of amazing guys like Jiren, and Broly here, right?"
But Vegeta continued to keep his eyes closed and just replied indifferently "Shut up. Don't interfere. This is also training..."
"Don't you lie to me. There's no way you can call that training!"
"You know nothing..."
After being told so, Goku tilts his heed in a moody way "What do you mean?"
Continuing to keep his eyes closed, Vegeta replies calmly "That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big."
"Huh?" Goku could not believe the words that Vegeta had just muttered.
It was unfathomable that there was no difference in power between them and Jiren, who had shown overwhelming power in the Tournament of Power, an event that put the survival of Universe 7's Earth on the line.
"There's no waste at all in the way that he uses his power. Haven't you noticed?" Vegeta said as he opened his eyes and slowly looked at Goku.
"Even during the midst of a battle, he keeps both his body and spirit relaxed at all times with the exception of the one instance in which he attacks."
"Really now?" Was something like that actually possible in the midst of an extreme situation? Facing Goku's distrustful eyes, Vegeta continued.
"Starting an attack all of a sudden prevents it from being read by your opponent and it also generates a huge explosive output. It also helps in preserving your stamina."
"Is that so?"
"Jiren is most likely doing it instinctively. That is why for someone like me, who can't do the same, training inside your mind is the first step to take."
As Vegeta closes his eyes once more, Goku tilts his head in distrust. What he had just heard was hard to believe.
-Jiren was overwhelmingly powerful. There are still plenty of strong beings scattered across the universes. That is why I need to train harder and become stronger as well-
As these thoughts raced through Goku's mind, the sound of someone clapping their hands came out of the blue. It was Beerus's attendant, Whis, who was slowly descending from the air.
"Marvelous! This is simply marvelous, Vegeta. You managed to discover how it works." Whis said as he approached Vegeta with a huge smile.
"Simply training your body all willy-nilly does not constitute training."
"Heh!" A smug Vegeta let out a little chuckle after being praised.
"Still, it took you long enough to finally notice."
After being told so shortly after, his expression changes to one of disgust.
"It seems like Goku still hasn't understood what it's all about."

That’s an excerpt from DBS Superhero novel. And it’s about Jiren again. I am sorry.

But I had this theory. What if Jiren wasn’t that much stronger than the saiyans. But with mastery over his perfect ki control, he was able to augment his power and attacks to greater heights. So, kind of like he found a way for a pistol to use a 50 cal?

Basically Jiren can multiple his ki briefly when fighting. Is this a decent theory? Basically turns a bullet into a rifle round?