Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I'm glad the novel confirmed this for all to see:

That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big."
"Huh?" Goku could not believe the words that Vegeta had just muttered.
It was unfathomable that there was no difference in power between them and Jiren, who had shown overwhelming power in the Tournament of Power, an event that put the survival of Universe 7's Earth on the line.

With this, it is Canonically confirmed that, power-wise/in raw power, Jiren isn't much stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

I wonder if his hax is really so invincible. Hit was able to completely and utterly shut him down with the time cage technique, other counters might exist.

[Hugo Boss]

I think this merely illustrates a continuity split, as the anime has Jiren beating Goku in a contest of power when Goku was using Super Saiyan Blue combined with Kaioken and Genkidama, and the manga has Goku and Vegeta using forms stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, so the power gap would have to consider those forms as well.

[ankokudaishogun]

Most likely Jiren's "raw" power, while great, was still in the "God of Destruction" class, the same as Blue Evolution, KKx20 and Toppo's GoD Mode

But he was able to maximize output and efficiency.

As comparison(random number ahoy!):
an attack from Goku with a power of 100 would cost Goku 10% of his stamina
But Jiren is much more efficient, so he could throw an attack with a power of 100 while using only 8% of his stamina, thus simply outlasting Goku.
Or he could use 10% of his stamina to throw a 120 power attack, thus overpowering Goku.
Or even using 9% of his stamina to throw a 110 power attack, both outlasting AND overpowering Goku.



tl;dr: Jiren was BOTH stronger to some degree than Goku but he was ALSO a much better martial artist.

they were simply outclassed all around

[Skar]

I think that quote makes the most sense in Toriyama's continuity since it only has standard Blue then UI so Jiren is between those two forms. It still works for the manga and anime but maybe the gap was implied to be bigger than Toriyama intended due to more forms in-between.

[HeroR]

I'm glad the novel confirmed this for all to see:

That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big."
"Huh?" Goku could not believe the words that Vegeta had just muttered.
It was unfathomable that there was no difference in power between them and Jiren, who had shown overwhelming power in the Tournament of Power, an event that put the survival of Universe 7's Earth on the line.

With this, it is Canonically confirmed that, power-wise/in raw power, Jiren isn't much stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

I wonder if his hax is really so invincible. Hit was able to completely and utterly shut him down with the time cage technique, other counters might exist.

Hit didn’t. Goku outright said Jiren pretended to be effected by Hit’s time slow technique and then upper cut him out of the ring in the manga. In the anime, Hit in-universe only held Jiren for a few seconds before Jiren starting movie and Vados saying he’s beyond time.

I think that quote makes the most sense in Toriyama's continuity since it only has standard Blue then UI so Jiren is between those two forms. It still works for the manga and anime but maybe the gap was implied to be bigger than Toriyama intended due to more forms in-between.

Jiren isn’t just in-between. Jiren in both versions countered UI and won in the manga. That and we don’t know if Vegeta is talking about after they got stronger through the trials of the TOP or how they were at the beginning of the TOP. Remember, despite being weakened by UI, they only beat Jiren by dog piling him out of the ring, they never beat him in a straight match. Anime Goku even said he wasn’t sure Frieza, 17, and him could take Jiren in 131 and in the manga tired Jiren took out Vegeta by just finger tapping him out of the ring.

Also, people only mentioned Goku and Vegeta, but Jiren also fought 17 and Golden Frieza. Both who are within Goku and Vegeta’s power range. Even Kelfa didn’t scare Jiren in either version.

And even in Toriyama’s version without the extended Blue forms, Goku was called basically a God of Destruction in just Blue by the producer of Broly. That and even years later Goku called Jiren’s power overwhelming. In short, this suggests that Toriyama sees Blue as being as strong as SSBE and Blue Kaioken.

[Skar]

And even in Toriyama’s version without the extended Blue forms, Goku was called basically a God of Destruction in just Blue by the producer of Broly. That and even years later Goku called Jiren’s power overwhelming. In short, this suggests that Toriyama sees Blue as being as strong as SSBE and Blue Kaioken.

The gap between them would still be smaller with fewer forms. The difference is that standard Blue would be their only form before UI. The manga has regular Blue, Completed, Evolution, and Omen. The anime had Kaioken x20, Evolution, Jiren tanking a U7 Spirit Bomb, and Omen. Toriyama's version of Blue would likely be as strong as their strongest forms in the other continuities but they need more forms to get to where he might've intended for regular Blue to be.

Goku and Vegeta only having regular Blue would also make more sense for Freeza and 17. Like you said, they were implied to close to Blue and helped out against Jiren. Freeza and 17 would be contributing more if they're near Goku and Vegeta's full power in Blue than only the beginning form and tens of times weaker than their upgrades to Blue in the manga and anime.

[ZombieVito]

So something got me thinking.

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1? It's confirmed in the movie that he hasn't trained but hasn't grown weaker after the ToP.

If Goku and Vegeta grew multiple times stronger during the ToP like some people have said then Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by Gamma 1 in the movie.

[HeroR]

And even in Toriyama’s version without the extended Blue forms, Goku was called basically a God of Destruction in just Blue by the producer of Broly. That and even years later Goku called Jiren’s power overwhelming. In short, this suggests that Toriyama sees Blue as being as strong as SSBE and Blue Kaioken.

The gap between them would still be smaller with fewer forms. The difference is that standard Blue would be their only form before UI. The manga has regular Blue, Completed, Evolution, and Omen. The anime had Kaioken x20, Evolution, Jiren tanking a U7 Spirit Bomb, and Omen. Toriyama's version of Blue would likely be as strong as their strongest forms in the other continuities but they need more forms to get to where he might've intended for regular Blue to be.

Goku and Vegeta only having regular Blue would also make more sense for Freeza and 17. Like you said, they were implied to close to Blue and helped out against Jiren. Freeza and 17 would be contributing more if they're near Goku and Vegeta's full power in Blue than only the beginning form and tens of times weaker than their upgrades to Blue in the manga and anime.

Jiren didn’t tank a Spirit Bomb. He pushed it back like Kid Buu.

That just means Blue in the anime and manga are weaker than how Toriyama sees the form. Remember, two Blues in Toriyama’s original outline stalled Fusion Zamasu for an hour.

Frieza was more than closed to Blue. He was all but said to be even with Goku in both versions.

So something got me thinking.

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1? It's confirmed in the movie that he hasn't trained but hasn't grown weaker after the ToP.

If Goku and Vegeta grew multiple times stronger during the ToP like some people have said then Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by Gamma 1 in the movie.

We just know that Gohan hasn’t gotten weaker. We don’t know how he compares to his USS self since that was several years ago. That and the last time we know Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was in Broly. Also, Gohan was still weaker than Blue in the TOP. He had trouble against Toppo.

[Skar]

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1?

I never thought they got stronger in the ToP. I'm not sure where the idea they could get several times stronger midbattle comes from. In the original manga, it was only after a Zenkai, rage boost, or unlocking a new transformations which were made clear when they happened. Other than that they trained between fights.

Jiren didn’t tank a Spirit Bomb. He pushed it back like Kid Buu.

That just means Blue in the anime and manga are weaker than how Toriyama sees the form. Remember, two Blues in Toriyama’s original outline stalled Fusion Zamasu for an hour.

Frieza was more than closed to Blue. He was all but said to be even with Goku in both versions.

Fused Zamasu might've been made stronger to warrant including Vegetto. In all three versions of the story, it seems that Vegeta overpowered Black which forced him to fuse with Zamasu. Toriyama likely assumed fused Zamasu wouldn't be that far above Vegeta so two Blues working together would be enough.

What I was trying to say about Freeza and 17 is that there would be a bigger gap between them and the Saiyans at full power when they have more forms.

Manga/anime:
Freeza, 17, Blue Goku and Vegeta
Upgrades to Blue
Omen
Jiren, UI

Toriyama's continuity:
Freeza, 17, Blue Goku and Vegeta
Jiren, UI

Jiren would only be one "tier" above Freeza, 17, and Goku and Vegeta at full power who are all around the same strength. If the anime and manga didn't include any upgrades to Blue then regular Blue would've been the same strength in all three versions.

[HeroR]

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1?

I never thought they got stronger in the ToP. I'm not sure where the idea they could get several times stronger midbattle comes from. In the original manga, it was only after a Zenkai, rage boost, or unlocking a new transformations which were made clear when they happened. Other than that they trained between fights.

Jiren didn’t tank a Spirit Bomb. He pushed it back like Kid Buu.

That just means Blue in the anime and manga are weaker than how Toriyama sees the form. Remember, two Blues in Toriyama’s original outline stalled Fusion Zamasu for an hour.

Frieza was more than closed to Blue. He was all but said to be even with Goku in both versions.

Fused Zamasu might've been made stronger to warrant including Vegetto. In all three versions of the story, it seems that Vegeta overpowered Black which forced him to fuse with Zamasu. Toriyama likely assumed fused Zamasu wouldn't be that far above Vegeta so two Blues working together would be enough.

What I was trying to say about Freeza and 17 is that there would be a bigger gap between them and the Saiyans at full power when they have more forms.

Manga/anime:
Freeza, 17, Blue Goku and Vegeta
Upgrades to Blue
Omen
Jiren, UI

Toriyama's continuity:
Freeza, 17, Blue Goku and Vegeta
Jiren, UI

Jiren would only be one "tier" above Freeza, 17, and Goku and Vegeta at full power who are all around the same strength. If the anime and manga didn't include any upgrades to Blue then regular Blue would've been the same strength in all three versions.

In the anime, Goku was clearly stronger fighting Jiren in Blue in 126 compared to how he performed in 109.

Actually in the anime, it was Zamasu who asked Black to fused after he nearly got sealed in the Evil Containment Wave. Black got more powerful and was handling Goku and Vegeta with his clones. That and that really makes no sense to assume "fused Zamasu wouldn't be that far above Vegeta" given how two normal Super Saiyans beat the crap out of Gohan Buu. Then we had the Broly movie where Super Saiyan Gogeta beat up Super Saiyan Broly.

We are assuming he's only one tier because UI is clearly a massive boost no matter what version you look at and Jiren adapted to it. If UI wasn't a massive boost, Toriyama wouldn't felt the need to exclude it from Broly when he could have easily made Goku lose in the form.

[Skar]

Actually in the anime, it was Zamasu who asked Black to fused after he nearly got sealed in the Evil Containment Wave. Black got more powerful and was handling Goku and Vegeta with his clones. That and that really makes no sense to assume "fused Zamasu wouldn't be that far above Vegeta" given how two normal Super Saiyans beat the crap out of Gohan Buu. Then we had the Broly movie where Super Saiyan Gogeta beat up Super Saiyan Broly.

Well obviously Goku and Vegeta is going to result in a stronger fusion than a Saiyan slightly above one of them and a much weaker Kaioshin. If Toriyama intended for Goku and Vegeta to fight Merged Zamasu without fusion, he couldn't have intended for Zamasu to be close to Vegetto. I don't remember what the anime did so I was thinking why Toriyama would have Black and Zamasu fuse in the first place.

We are assuming he's only one tier because UI is clearly a massive boost no matter what version you look at and Jiren adapted to it. If UI wasn't a massive boost, Toriyama wouldn't felt the need to exclude it from Broly would he could have easily made Goku lose in the form.

UI could still be a huge boost but it doesn't change what I said. Regular Blue might weaker in the manga and anime because they needed upgrades to be as strong as Toriyama intended for Blue to be on its own. Their full power is the same in all three versions but difference is that it's only one form from Toriyama. It changes how strong Freeza and 17 are because being close to Blue in the manga and anime means they're weaker than Goku and Vegeta at full power since they have forms above it. If they only have one form of Blue then Freeza and 17 are close to their full power and only weaker than UI.

[ankokudaishogun]

the ToP anime had a theme of limit-breaking and saiyan growing stronger during fights.
Plus one can easily argue that Goku and Vegeta "simply" adapted to Jiren's fighting style thus where less overwhelmed

If Toriyama intended for Goku and Vegeta to fight Merged Zamasu without fusion,

IIRC the original plan was only "Black Rosé is stronger than Blue but is defeated by Goku+Vegeta".
But Toyotaro insisted in adding Vegetto, and to explain the need for Vegetto they merged Black with the immortal Zamasu

[HeroR]

Actually in the anime, it was Zamasu who asked Black to fused after he nearly got sealed in the Evil Containment Wave. Black got more powerful and was handling Goku and Vegeta with his clones. That and that really makes no sense to assume "fused Zamasu wouldn't be that far above Vegeta" given how two normal Super Saiyans beat the crap out of Gohan Buu. Then we had the Broly movie where Super Saiyan Gogeta beat up Super Saiyan Broly.

Well obviously Goku and Vegeta is going to result in a stronger fusion than a Saiyan slightly above one of them and a much weaker Kaioshin. If Toriyama intended for Goku and Vegeta to fight Merged Zamasu without fusion, he couldn't have intended for Zamasu to be close to Vegetto. I don't remember what the anime did so I was thinking why Toriyama would have Black and Zamasu fuse in the first place.

We are assuming he's only one tier because UI is clearly a massive boost no matter what version you look at and Jiren adapted to it. If UI wasn't a massive boost, Toriyama wouldn't felt the need to exclude it from Broly would he could have easily made Goku lose in the form.

UI could still be a huge boost but it doesn't change what I said. Regular Blue might weaker in the manga and anime because they needed upgrades to be as strong as Toriyama intended for Blue to be on its own. Their full power is the same in all three versions but difference is that it's only one form from Toriyama. It changes how strong Freeza and 17 are because being close to Blue in the manga and anime means they're weaker than Goku and Vegeta at full power since they have forms above it. If they only have one form of Blue then Freeza and 17 are close to their full power and only weaker than UI.

The power difference between Black and Zamasu to Goku and Vegeta is much smaller than the power difference between Goku and Vegeta and Gohan Buu because Vegeta alone was weaker than Gohan and Gotenks by a large degree. And Vegito in just Super Saiyan smashed Buu. So you can’t really say the fusion of Black and Zamasu wasn’t much stronger than Vegeta.

It really doesn’t change Frieza and 17 because we don’t know how strong 17 and Frieza are in Toriyama’s version. Going by Broly, Frieza didn’t want to confront Goku at all to the point he had his goons steal the Dragon Balls for him so Goku wouldn’t sense him. Which suggests that Frieza is weaker and he didn’t consider going to Earth himself until he got Broly.

[Skar]

The power difference between Black and Zamasu to Goku and Vegeta is much smaller than the power difference between Goku and Vegeta and Gohan Buu because Vegeta alone was weaker than Gohan and Gotenks by a large degree. And Vegito in just Super Saiyan smashed Buu. So you can’t really say the fusion of Black and Zamasu wasn’t much stronger than Vegeta.

I'm not the one saying it though. If Toriyama thought two Blue Goku and Vegeta could take on Merged Zamasu then he's less than twice as strong one of them. That's clearly way less than the fusion of Goku and Vegeta. SSJ1 Vegetto was far stronger than SSJ3 Goku and base Gogeta did better than the individual Blues so Blue Gogeta would possibly be hundreds of times stronger than them.

It really doesn’t change Frieza and 17 because we don’t know how strong 17 and Frieza are in Toriyama’s version. Going by Broly, Frieza didn’t want to confront Goku at all to the point he had his goons steal the Dragon Balls for him so Goku wouldn’t sense him. Which suggests that Frieza is weaker and he didn’t consider going to Earth himself until he got Broly.

You said earlier Freeza and 17 were in Goku and Vegeta range of power in Blue. I assume it's from Toriyama if it's the same in both versions. Freeza being afraid of going to Earth alone only confirms he's weaker than Goku and Vegeta together. I don't think Broly implied they were vastly stronger in Blue since RoF so Freeza should still be close to Blue especially after he overcame the stamina problem.

[ZombieVito]

We just know that Gohan hasn’t gotten weaker. We don’t know how he compares to his USS self since that was several years ago. That and the last time we know Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was in Broly. Also, Gohan was still weaker than Blue in the TOP. He had trouble against Toppo.

He should be the same since he hasn't trained. Also being weaker than Toppo means nothing. The Gammas could be weaker than Toppo and Piccolo's statement still isn't contradicted.

SSB Goku/Vegeta: 10
Ultimate Gohan: 9
Gammas: 8
Ultimate Piccolo: 7

[Hugo Boss]

17 being on SSB range of power as the anime and manga suggest creates another small issue, with him being too close to Gammas, despite they being advertised as the strongest androids so far and comparable to SSB. I think a good compromise is scaling him down to sub-SSG or Majin Boo level.

Freeza in another hand is implied to be stronger than a single SSB, but manageable by two SSB. With Broly on his side his confidence was assured.

[ZombieVito]

17 being on SSB range of power as the anime and manga suggest creates another small issue, with him being too close to Gammas, despite they being advertised as the strongest androids so far and comparable to SSB. I think a good compromise is scaling him down to sub-SSG or Majin Boo level.

Freeza in another hand is implied to be stronger than a single SSB, but manageable by two SSB. With Broly on his side his confidence was assured.

But why? Even if they are close, the Gamma's would still be stronger so that statement isn't contradicted.

[HeroR]

We just know that Gohan hasn’t gotten weaker. We don’t know how he compares to his USS self since that was several years ago. That and the last time we know Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was in Broly. Also, Gohan was still weaker than Blue in the TOP. He had trouble against Toppo.

He should be the same since he hasn't trained. Also being weaker than Toppo means nothing. The Gammas could be weaker than Toppo and Piccolo's statement still isn't contradicted.

SSB Goku/Vegeta: 10
Ultimate Gohan: 9
Gammas: 8
Ultimate Piccolo: 7

Train since when? As I said, the TOP was years ago. He isn't rusty enough to lose power, so how long has Gohan been off the wagon.

The power difference between Black and Zamasu to Goku and Vegeta is much smaller than the power difference between Goku and Vegeta and Gohan Buu because Vegeta alone was weaker than Gohan and Gotenks by a large degree. And Vegito in just Super Saiyan smashed Buu. So you can’t really say the fusion of Black and Zamasu wasn’t much stronger than Vegeta.

I'm not the one saying it though. If Toriyama thought two Blue Goku and Vegeta could take on Merged Zamasu then he's less than twice as strong one of them. That's clearly way less than the fusion of Goku and Vegeta. SSJ1 Vegetto was far stronger than SSJ3 Goku and base Gogeta did better than the individual Blues so Blue Gogeta would possibly be hundreds of times stronger than them.

It really doesn’t change Frieza and 17 because we don’t know how strong 17 and Frieza are in Toriyama’s version. Going by Broly, Frieza didn’t want to confront Goku at all to the point he had his goons steal the Dragon Balls for him so Goku wouldn’t sense him. Which suggests that Frieza is weaker and he didn’t consider going to Earth himself until he got Broly.

You said earlier Freeza and 17 were in Goku and Vegeta range of power in Blue. I assume it's from Toriyama if it's the same in both versions. Freeza being afraid of going to Earth alone only confirms he's weaker than Goku and Vegeta together. I don't think Broly implied they were vastly stronger in Blue since RoF so Freeza should still be close to Blue especially after he overcame the stamina problem.

Thing is we only have Toyo who said this and we don't have the context to how they stall Fusion Zamaus. This is what happens when you only have an outline, not even a final draft, and it relied to you through hearsay. For the most part, when fusion happens that is more than just a small increase in power and we have seen this with Gotenks, Vegito, and Gogeta. Like using Gotenks, the power difference between Goten and Trunks to Super Buu is vastly bigger than the power different between Goku and Vegeta and Zamasu and Black.

They're in power range during the TOP. Broly is after the TOP where Goku and Vegeta clearly got stronger. That and he only reference Goku and Vegeta together after he saw Gogeta. Vegeta was so beneath Frieza that barely acknowledged his existence.

[Hugo Boss]

17 being on SSB range of power as the anime and manga suggest creates another small issue, with him being too close to Gammas, despite they being advertised as the strongest androids so far and comparable to SSB. I think a good compromise is scaling him down to sub-SSG or Majin Boo level.

Freeza in another hand is implied to be stronger than a single SSB, but manageable by two SSB. With Broly on his side his confidence was assured.

But why? Even if they are close, the Gamma's would still be stronger so that statement isn't contradicted.

If they are close in power, that would pose the question of why Piccolo didn’t consider 17 a worthy ally, even if the RR had studied him. 17 would be in practical terms as strong as Goku or Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

If they are close in power, that would pose the question of why Piccolo didn’t consider 17 a worthy ally, even if the RR had studied him. 17 would be in practical terms as strong as Goku or Vegeta.

Well, Piccolo does address this in the movie. RR could have info on 17 and 18's weakness so he didn't considered them for help.