Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

It really doesn’t work, imo, because Goku simply doesn’t have a history of losing focus after an emotional shock. The closest he came was going Super Saiyan and Krillin’s first death. Heck, Goku kept his head together after both of his sons and Earth got blown up by Buu. That and UI isn’t about having no emotions, just controlling them.

I’m not downplaying his power. It’s just a fact that he isn’t more dangerous than Moro. Like Frieza in Broly wasn’t the strongest by any means, but he was the most dangerous since he was the reason Broly went crazy. Kid Buu wasn’t the strongest Buu, but he was the most dangerous.

Except Goku only showed ‘Saiyan pride’ in allowing Broly to used his Saiyan name. It isn’t like he told everyone to call him Kakarot. Especially when Goku tried to reason with Broly. Keep in mind, outside of the U6 Saiyans, Broly is the first Saiyan he met that wasn’t a mass-murdering nut job.

The issue is that the pressure point seemed to only exist to KO UI Goku. Then it got nerf by Vegeta withstanding it in Blue and then Granolah randomly stopped using it. And Toyo has done stuff like this before.

UI is automatic to the point that his body should have harden without Goku seeing Granolah. That’s what UI is for.

You're right that he doesn't have a history of losing focus after an emotional shock, and right now isn't really an exception considering he'd just turned into/been in the silver Perfected UI which does normally require calmness of mind/emotional control even when he later says in Sign that "his mind isn't at peace atm". It's moreso that even in his history of keeping focus post-shocks, Goku has (as he says in Moro) normally had his emotions all over the place whenever he's fighting, with in particular the emotions from what he's learned about himself/his race/"Saiyan pride" today now buoying him to use a (in theory) weaker form to better utilise those feelings to the max than the (in theory) stronger silver form.

Obviously not since Gas (& the Heeters) aren't omnicidal planet eaters like Moro but they just want to get rid of them (the Saiyans + Granolah), then Freeza, then rule the universe. Though I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a mark against Gas being something worth Goku (& Vegeta) having the pure "Saiyan" drive to win above all else against since nonetheless, he's a strong threatening foe who's refused to leave at any chance Goku's given him (& the Heeters).

This is what I mean in that I don't really buy the supposed Goku-Broly "fellow pure Saiyan" bond that gets exposited to exist in the M20 ending to the point of Goku allowing him to use his Saiyan name, as it barely exists if it did at all in the past 1hr-ish of fighting (no, I don't think the God Bind scene is proof of a bond, esp when Wrathful Broly rejects the overture and continues smashing Goku). Seemed more like a cooked-up reason to have Broly call Goku by "Kakarot" as a neat-ish reference to the old Broly films wherein he does so.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you on the Granolah pressure pointing thing, I'd like to know where it's gone too lmao (he even takes up the same stance in his Gas fight yet he doesn't use it there lol)
Chances are Toyo prob phased it out as it was an easy win button for early fights & it may or may not pop back for the finale (like he did to an extent with Moro's absorption).

The difference between UI's body blocking Moro and it not blocking Granolah is that right at the time of the latter, PUI Goku was visibly frazzled from confusion over Granolah's body dissipating and the revelation he was a clone (to which Granolah was able to travel and thrust in front of him faster than his body/UI could react), unlike wherein he (and I suppose his UI/body) was fully consciously aware of Moro going in to attack him after the Senzu (and the possibility that he would do so).

Him having problems using silver-haired UI because of ‘Saiyan pride’ is eye-rolling. Because this supposed pride shouldn’t be a stronger emotional shock that watching someone you like die. Especially when he spends years with Vegeta who talks about nothing except Saiyan pride.

It’s a mark against Gas because he’s more or less a loyal dog. He’s powerful, but I’m terms of universal threat he’s low. Which is why I said he isn’t as dangerous as Moro. Also not helping that his life has been severely shortened. To be blunt, no he’s worth ‘we must win at any cost’ because he did nothing to earn it outside of being a jerk who happened to be ‘the strongest being in the universe’. And getting rid of Frieza is a negative?

If it was just a neat reference to old Broly, Broly would actually call Goku Kakarot. But he doesn’t, not even in Super Hero, not even once. And it isn’t ‘fellow pure Saiyan’ bond so much as a kindred spirit bond. If it was a pure Saiyan bond, he would allow the U6 Saiyans to call him Kakarot.

The thing is, UI should react even if Goku is confused, especially after Vegeta shouted a warning, which was odd anyway since Goku fought a clone before back in OG Dragon Ball.

[OLKv3]

This arc is low scale. After the universal threat stuff of Moro, this arc is a smaller scaled personal story between Granolah, the saiyans, and the heaters

The universe isn't in any danger in this arc, like Vegeta mentioned. Even the planet isn't in danger since the Heaters don't want it destroyed. If the Heaters win, then life goes on as usual in the grand scheme, since Elec doesn't want to change anything besides his position. Hell, it'd probably be safer than Freeza's current rule. Goku and Vegeta's lives are in danger sure, but they'd just be wished back with the Namekian dragon balls. I can't remember the last time Db had such a smaller scale story like this. Even the current movie has the RRA threatening control of the planet

This isn't a dig btw. Just interesting

[Shorty GZ2]

Him having problems using silver-haired UI because of ‘Saiyan pride’ is eye-rolling. Because this supposed pride shouldn’t be a stronger emotional shock that watching someone you like die. Especially when he spends years with Vegeta who talks about nothing except Saiyan pride.

It’s a mark against Gas because he’s more or less a loyal dog. He’s powerful, but I’m terms of universal threat he’s low. Which is why I said he isn’t as dangerous as Moro. Also not helping that his life has been severely shortened. To be blunt, no he’s worth ‘we must win at any cost’ because he did nothing to earn it outside of being a jerk who happened to be ‘the strongest being in the universe’. And getting rid of Frieza is a negative?

If it was just a neat reference to old Broly, Broly would actually call Goku Kakarot. But he doesn’t, not even in Super Hero, not even once. And it isn’t ‘fellow pure Saiyan’ bond so much as a kindred spirit bond. If it was a pure Saiyan bond, he would allow the U6 Saiyans to call him Kakarot.

The thing is, UI should react even if Goku is confused, especially after Vegeta shouted a warning, which was odd anyway since Goku fought a clone before back in OG Dragon Ball.

The thing is, that he 'doesn't' have any problems w/ using silver-haired UI. He'd just gone in (alongside UE Vegeta) & out of it with 0 issues whatsoever. Just that his newfound self-actualisation (it's a bit of a disservice just noting it as "Saiyan pride" to make it seem more trivial of a driver than watching someone die, as that doesn't account for it being a sort of self-identity/perception thing for Goku) can better empower him via Sign than in silver-haired UI. I'm sure to complete this very much circular UI progression, he'll get back an even stronger/emotionally-empowered silver UI in the future lol.

In that sense, you're right as OLK below puts it in that this arc & consequently its villains are more small-scale/personal than Moro. What I meant is that even so, Gas's still a super-strong bad guy who's refused to leave the heroes be & wants to kill them (& Granolah, who Goku accepted Monaito's request to save) at all costs, whilst having demolished them previously. I'd say that's (an appropriate life-or-death battle scenario) worth Goku & Vegeta having/internalising the pure Saiyan drive to win against him, which was the point of the Bardockventures stuff. Plus, well, Goku doesn't seem to care about whatever Freeza's doing now, even after he sicked Broly on him & Vegeta, with Gogeta basically letting him go at the end.

I don't think him Broly saying Goku's Saiyan name in Super Hero disproves my notion of the ending of M20 mainly being an excuse to reference the old movies. In fact, Broly barely does or says much of anything in Super Hero, really. And yeah, I don't see what makes Broly so special to get "K-name privileges" (who Vegeta is the only other guy he lets call him by) compared to the U6 Saiyans either lmao (Kale isn't even referenced in the movie despite the similarities to her and Broly).

It's not something explicitly highlighted by anyone, but whenever Goku in UI looks surprised/distressed/distracted, he gets hit or doesn't dodge when he should - like him going "what the hell" upon Planet Moro's awakening making him eat a faceful of mouthblast, and the numerous times Granolah manages to tap him out of using the technique. I'd also think Goku would still be surprised about a diff-placed clone situation even when he'd encountered it before a long time ago.

[kemuri07]

This arc is low scale. After the universal threat stuff of Moro, this arc is a smaller scaled personal story between Granolah, the saiyans, and the heaters

The universe isn't in any danger in this arc, like Vegeta mentioned. Even the planet isn't in danger since the Heaters don't want it destroyed. If the Heaters win, then life goes on as usual in the grand scheme, since Elec doesn't want to change anything besides his position. Hell, it'd probably be safer than Freeza's current rule. Goku and Vegeta's lives are in danger sure, but they'd just be wished back with the Namekian dragon balls. I can't remember the last time Db had such a smaller scale story like this. Even the current movie has the RRA threatening control of the planet

This isn't a dig btw. Just interesting

Not a bad point. And honestly I think DBS needed something more personal and low stakes after the past few arcs. But maaaaan….they really screwed this arc up.

Two hours until Viz releases the chapter on the app. Things can’t get worse, right?


Right?

[kemuri07]

Huh.. Surprisingly I actually kind of enjoyed this chapter. Despite my constant whining about the plot, one of the few positive takeaways from this arc has been the fight choreography. And I think it shines particularly with this chapter. I know some people have pointed out that DBS isn't as flashy as other shounen, but I think what this manga does particularly well is show how brutal these fights are. One of my chief complaints about the anime is that, while the sakuga looked good, it felt fairly weightless. To compensate for not having movment, there's an extra emphasis on bone crunching hits. Like man, I really enjoyed Vegeta's "ah yes, hurt me daddy!" routine. A really fun way to showcase Vegeta's new form. Vegeta is just way more compelling to watch than Goku and is a big reason why I enjoyed the earlier chapters in this arc.

the rest of it? meh. So I guess Goku gets another power up because of Bardock? Sure. I mean we knew this was coming so I wasn't really angry or upset. Just tired. I want this arc to end so badly. I think we're getting there. I give it two more chapters maybe?

[FortuneSSJ]

As someone who likes UI Sign more than MUI, I'm glad he's using that one.
Loved the mouth ki blast even though it would fit UE better than UI. It's refreshing to see Goku using other Ki blasts instead of just kamehameha over and over, which he still used...

Looks like time is running out for Gas.

[kemuri07]

Got a notification from Shonen Jump:

"VEGETA TAKES A POUNDING!!!"


Phrasing!!

[PurestEvil]

That was actually more pleasant than I anticipated, though that must have been due to my really low expectations.
Vegeta got his chance to shine but it fizzled out in the end. Though, with Gas transforming in the end, perhaps he could jump back into the fight to help Goku.
I am not sure what to make of Goku's new form as I am not invested in the Ultra Instinct progression at all, but I suppose it looks cool. Vegeta calling it "absurd" was a notable moment.
Speaking of looking cool, the fighting choreography was well-composed, as well. The flow was pretty good and the moves Goku pulled off (like his bait-and-switch with the ball and chain) were quite impressive.
Not sure how the Heeters thought that the Saiyans would be a good "stepping stone" to killing Freeza, considering how much stronger the Saiyans are. Then again, if they beat the Saiyans, it would theoretically be easy to kill Freeza. It will be interesting to see how Elec responds to Gas potentially reaching the end of his rope due to the wish, though, if it happens.

[Bardock God of Time]

I imagine if Goku, Vegeta or Granola gets stronger than Gas again - Gas will die because he'll age up again

Maybe we'll get a rad panel where he turns into a skeleton or something

[kemuri07]

That was actually more pleasant than I anticipated, though that must have been due to my really low expectations.
Vegeta got his chance to shine but it fizzled out in the end. Though, with Gas transforming in the end, perhaps he could jump back into the fight to help Goku.
I am not sure what to make of Goku's new form as I am not invested in the Ultra Instinct progression at all, but I suppose it looks cool. Vegeta calling it "absurd" was a notable moment.
Speaking of looking cool, the fighting choreography was well-composed, as well. The flow was pretty good and the moves Goku pulled off (like his bait-and-switch with the ball and chain) were quite impressive.
Not sure how the Heeters thought that the Saiyans would be a good "stepping stone" to killing Freeza, considering how much stronger the Saiyans are. Then again, if they beat the Saiyans, it would theoretically be easy to kill Freeza. It will be interesting to see how Elec responds to Gas potentially reaching the end of his rope due to the wish, though, if it happens.

Oh yeah...totally forgot that the whole thing started with soemone wanting revenge against Freeza.

[Cipher]

This arc is low scale. After the universal threat stuff of Moro, this arc is a smaller scaled personal story between Granolah, the saiyans, and the heaters

The universe isn't in any danger in this arc, like Vegeta mentioned. Even the planet isn't in danger since the Heaters don't want it destroyed. If the Heaters win, then life goes on as usual in the grand scheme, since Elec doesn't want to change anything besides his position. Hell, it'd probably be safer than Freeza's current rule. Goku and Vegeta's lives are in danger sure, but they'd just be wished back with the Namekian dragon balls. I can't remember the last time Db had such a smaller scale story like this. Even the current movie has the RRA threatening control of the planet

This isn't a dig btw. Just interesting

This arc is the most basic/classic martial-arts fiction DB has done in a while--just on its cosmic scale.

Goku and Vegeta roll into someone's revenge story and have to contend with some bad dudes in town. Everyone involved just happens to the be the strongest in the universe instead of the strongest in their village.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Maybe other members can enlighten me, but what was Vegeta's answer supposed to be in that chapter? His line to Goku suggested that he had found his answer, while waiting for Goku do the same. He started the fight with another resolve, no longer constrained by the guilt of what the Saiyans had done, and this time without facing an enemy who had been affected by the Saiyans' evil deeds. And yet...he does exactly the same things he did in the fight against Granolah. How exactly was his Ultra Ego evolving? How exactly did the answer he found significantly change any of his actions during the fight? Idk, maybe I was expecting a lot more (something similar to his monologue against Granolah). Or something that actually showed that change. This didn't feel any different than anything that had happened before, just yet another Vegeta getting his ass beat, but without any of the things that could make this compelling.

As for Goku, I really don't mind Toyo using lower forms as solutions to face stronger enemies. This was one of the key points of the Champa tournament and the Future Trunks arc (and these were pretty interesting ideas indeed), but I'm struggling to see exactly what his intention is with the Omen form here beyond this surface level. SSG was considered a balanced form as it was strong and consumed less stamina than Blue. But Omen was straight up said to be an unstable form that only served as a gateway to the true Ultra Instinct. And while Goku's emotions run a little looser in this state (this can be seen against Moro), this was seen as one of the obstacles for him to reach the Silver Haired for. How exactly can this be a solution now? Maybe these things make more sense or will be deepened later, but honestly for now this seems like a pretty weird solution

[kemuri07]

You're not wrong. Out of context, I thought this was an enjoyable chapter. But once again, the moment you consider the plot, none of this makes a lick of sense. Because everything you're saying is absolutely right. We're supposed to get the impression that Bardock has effected both Goku and Vegeta. But they basically do the exact same things they've always done.

[ZeroNeonix]

Haha! Toyotaro did for Ultra Instinct Sign what he did before for Super Saiyan God. He brought the form back from irrelevancy and gave it an advantage over its higher form. I like this. If this means we get more Ultra Instinct Sign in the future, I'm up for it.

[Jack Bz]

On my first read, I don't like this at all. There's some things I think need clarifying to enjoy what Toyo is trying to do here:

Is the issue for Goku that, in this specific situation, he is struggling to control his emotions but PUI is still the better form? Or is it that sign is better suited for Goku overall, and will serve him better going forward?

Why didn't Goku fighting Moro emotionally with sign do any good? Why was PUI such a vast, vast improvement that time?

In what way is using sign actually utilising the concept of ultra instinct? Is Goku moving without thinking or not?

I'm just confused. Toyo was right when he said in that interview that he made PUI too perfect. I feel like this is much more like Goku deciding that incomplete blue suits him more than complete blue, rather than strategically using super saiyan god before switching to blue etc.

And as someone who is usually not at all bothered by Vegeta losing his battles, especially the one against Granolah which was a fantastic battle, his role here is really really uninteresting. It went the exact same way as when he fought Granolah and he didn't learn or try anything new.

[Koitsukai]

The fights were good, they weren't unnecessarily extended like in previous chapters (to pad out or to show off), it was all to the point.
Vegeta creeping on Gas was nice, Maki was right, it was like fighting a zombie.
Goku saving Geet's ass was also cool, doing a different version of Gas' third-party teleport. And crushing Gas with Sign was suprisingly effective, I was expecting Goku to trade blows while being a tad behind, not to control the fight as he did. He ended up unhorning Gas and attacking him with his own weapons.

I'm also needing some explanation about Vegeta's answer. Ever since his fight with Granny, we've all been wondering what would've happened if he was more cautious and less of a tank, not taking damage and riling up his instincts a different way, without putting his healthbar on the line. Well, he's doing the same thing, so either he cannot get stronger if he doesn't receive damage, or he already had the answer he was looking for... and it failed, again. Maybe his answer was to last long enough to deal some damage to Gas, so that Goku's actual answer would be able to finish the job?

With Gas still having something left (aging to the point of being Grey Buu), and Goku's edge being temporary, Goku's answer is yet to come. Besides, he found it pretty fast. I know Sign was made out to be unstable and a drag in the previous arc, and now it's a bit more stable, yet with a timer. Probably, mastering the silver form improved Sign enough and while it will not last long, it can be more effective than UI, at least for Goku. A weaker unstable passion-based Goku > a blank stable Goku. With his drive and determination/passion/whatever making up the difference. It is odd and would require some type of explaining, just like if suddenly using SS is better than using SS2. It seems to be like it's the SS grade forms we are talking about, but UI >>>> Sign by a lot.
This is basically a Moro arc Sign Goku but much stronger and stable, and the real answer will be doing the passion thing with the silver form.


I thought there was a panel of Elecc and Gas as if they were about to fight Goku and Vegeta together, implying Elecc also got a power boost from Toronbo. I guess not.
Getting a little tired of Elecc being nothing but Saori Kido, just there to revive his soldiers through pep talk. Hopefully, Gas doesn't have much left for Elecc to draw out by talking, and I really hope Gas doesn't end up like Saganbo, being exploited until he cannot take it any longer.


Oh, and what's the deal with Granola? wasn't this his arc? he's been out of comission since january.

[batistabus]

I really liked this chapter. It was a bit filler-y in the sense that Omen was never going to do the job, and (as Gas said) a technique that requires you to take damage is a bad strategy, but it works in the "throw every possible solution at the problem" sense. On that note, Gas almost literally throws everything but the kitchen sink at Goku, which was pretty funny.

Good action all around. Some really impactful hits and large page spreads.

A lot of solid character acting from Gas. I especially like his unneeded block against Vegeta and his glance to the side when he realizes Goku has interfered.

Vegeta's solution is greater resolve. I dig the zombie look, and I especially like the way Wagamama looks in this outfit. By the end he's down but not unconscious.

I like Omen here. If we're guessing who came up with what, I'll assume this was a Toyotaro idea (compare it to Vegeta vs Black). Regardless, it fits with the way it was used in the Moro arc. It is more effective (powerful) here because Goku is at least embracing his imbalanced state of mind. Vegeta comments on how Goku's fighting style is a bastardization of how the technique was originally conceived, which is a welcome acknowledgement. And in the way it originally foretold the power of Migatte, it feels like it's foretelling something we may see later...

Gas appears to be burning up his lifeforce. At the beginning of the arc, I wondered if Granolah's wish would have the side effect of making him powerful no matter what, which would result in him continuing to exchange life for power as Goku/Vegeta improved during the battle. I'm not entirely sure if that's what's happening here; it could be something more akin to Tenshinhan's Kikoho (or for HxH fans, Gon's moment at the end of the Chimera Arc).

[TKA]

Another month, another chapter of pointless repetitive fighting with no plot progression.

Another month, another chapter ending with the antagonists revealing they were holding back/powering up on the final page, insisting that now they're gonna get serious.

God I hope after all this mystery, Elec isn't just going to be "I will use my siblings for my own personal elevation". It's rote as fuck, and the predictable route. Do something different.

Bad chapter.

[Soba Mask]

On this was the worst chapter of the whole manga for me... God damn it... Now UI Omen is something different and super cool... UE instead was worthless.

At the same time nothing happened to progress the story.

Seriously... DB Super Hero looks like an Oscar plot compare to this

[FortuneSSJ]

UE is such a flawed transformation if you can't take infinite damage. What's the point of bragging you're getting stronger during the fight, when you're just a blow away from passing out?! UE Vegeta is losing all his fights so far because he can't beat Granolah or Gas before reaching his limit...