Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:30 pm
So how strong is Buu now? He had his latent potential unlocked during the Moro arc after all.
He's obviously far stronger than Super Saiyan God because he made Moro look like a chump who in turn was too much for Super Saiyan God Vegeta.
However he's not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue either considering he was later far outmatched by the powered up Moro and Goku and Vegeta said hey we're still stronger than him.
But within that gap where would be place amongst Legendary Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black and Android 17?
Old Man Moro was not at all stronger than Super Saiyan God, but his magic WAS indeed too much for Vegeta to handle. After eating their energy he increased in power and regained some youth, but was still bodied by Buu who did not have Dai Kaioshin's divine power. It's possible he STILL wasn't on the SSG level of power, nor was it required since he could just absorb the heroes ki (and they were already weakened enough anyway). Anyway, between SSG and SSB is a good place to put Buu and this youngish Moro.
Black with Rosé is definitely stronger than Goku and Vegeta with the normal SSB - but he's definitely weaker than them with the Completed Blue, since it could match his fusion.
Kefla should be on that level of power, while I'd LIKE to believe 17 is more or less between SS3 and SSG, regardless of what Goku said after the ToP.
Moro resorts to underhanded tactics against Dai Kaioshin until he obtained enough power to surpass him. Once that happened, Moro actually fought Dai Kaioshin directly. Goku and Vegeta only suggest that Moro is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue when they are at full power which makes it clear Moro is relatively close to Super Saiyan Blue. I would say that Dai Kaioshin and by extension Buu would be far above regular Super Saiyan Blue which would naturally place him above SSJR Goku Black but below both Kefla and 17 who are around Perfected Super Saiyan Blue level.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:49 pm
Not to mention that Piccolo apparently had a lot of hidden power to be accessed through wishing it to be so like as though an Elder Namekian were unlocking his potential, despite being one of the most prominent examples of a character stagnating compared to the Saiyans.
The thing is, transformations are also a way to access deep wells of power within. To me, it's always been clear that Piccolo has deep power reserves and a lot of potential. The clearest showing of this is displayed by how far up he can punch with his Makankosappo. That level of power is within him, but he doesn't seem to be able to draw it out at once like the Saiyans can with transformations. Judging from the Moro arc where Piccolo confidently threatened to annihilate Moro with a full power self-destruct as a last resort, Orange Piccolo is basically that level of power accessed at all times.
Then considering his young age and the fact that he's been able to stay relevant to at least SSJ1 characters and even surpass them later in Super it's easy to see that any power multiplying technique would do wonders for him since his baseline is roughly SSJ1.
Potential is really just up to the whims of Toriyama. The Saiyans keep unlocking more and more of it even though they keep supposedly reaching their limits, so it's really just a matter of whether the method is creative enough for a given character.
I think this is true, but there are clues for certain characters. Piccolo's had a bit of an understated build in Super (better in the manga IMO), but it's actually fairly satisfying when you dig into the details, starting from RoF. I don't think it's an accident that he's been featured prominently despite bad to mixed combat showings. All that culminated in how he was featured in Super Hero which puts him just below Gohan as he's always been in Super.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:36 pm
Well I mean how big is the gap between Super Saiyan Blue ordinarily and Super Saiyan Blue at full power?
Can the gap be that huge that Buu, Gohan and Kefla can fit in there?
I’ve seen more than one illogical video or post scaling Piccolo’s forms in Super Hero.
There’s a few points needed to establish the power of Gamma 1 and 2 to get a better sense of where Ultimate Piccolo falls. First, Gamma 1 and 2 are implied to be the same or close to the same level, which is stated to be the highest of all the androids we’ve seen so far. If you use 17 as a basis, then both must be around SSJB level or beyond. In the anime especially, 17 is shown to be at least SSJB level from when we first see him challenge Goku to all of his feats during the ToP. It could be argued he’s closer to SSJBx20 and SSJBE by the end of the ToP given his performance against Toppo and Jiren.
If Gamma 1 and 2 are beyond that level when they fight Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo, then it’s safe to say Ultimate Piccolo is somewhere close to SSJB or a little bit beyond. The Gammas also show an ability to adapt and improve as they fight an opponent, which seems evident when Gamma 2 starts to overpower Ultimate Piccolo as they discuss the true nature of the people inch Dr. Hedo what to do.
If Gamma 2 can be said to have adapted and increased his power to a level even higher than the SSJB when he overpowers Piccolo, then his performance is even more impressive when he transforms. After becoming Orange Piccolo and engaging Gamma 2, the disparity in power is shown in a deliberate and stark contrast with Gamma 2’s attacks having absolutely no effect, and even worse, Piccolo completely incapacitating him with a single attack.
In the history of DB, DBZ, and DBS, showing a character outclassed to that degree is used to indicate the character reached a much higher level than before in his new form. For example, SSJ2 Gohan’s reaction to Cell after the way he fared against him as a SSJ.
Why would this be any different for Piccolo? Clearly, it’s meant to show his increase is drastic and puts him in a class far higher than SSJB. In terms of forms, we’ve seen on a level clearly above SSJB, the Ultra forms are the only two we’ve seen display that drastic a difference.
Now I’m not saying Orange Piccolo is on the same level as the Ultra forms, but I don’t think there’s a reason to think he’s that far behind until we see otherwise.
TLDR version: It’s absurd to place Orange Piccolo at SSJB level, when it’s clear Piccolo is already around that level in his Ultimate form. Purposely showing such a drastic difference in power by Piccolo dominating Gamma 2 after he transforms puts his Orange form much higher than his ultimate. If he’s already SSJB in Ultimate, then it makes more sense to place him closer to the Ultra forms in his Orange form. Although I don’t think he reaches that level yet until we see more of him using the form in the future.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:53 pmYes, that is clearly the case.
Why's that? Because a Full Power Super Saiyan Blue would beat Goku Black easily but would require being serious against Kefla?
Yes. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is significantly above Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta's own unrefined Super Saiyan Blue at the time had a considerable edge on SSJR Goku Black. In the case of Kefla, Kefla retains Berserker Kale's battle power and Berserker Kale's power was presented as a threat to Perfected Blue Goku and Golden Frieza. The narrative is clear that Kefla is at least around Perfected Blue Goku which makes her much stronger than Goku Black.
When we compare her to Buu, it's hard to tell. I personally believe Kefla is stronger than Perfected Blue Goku and Vegeta but they presumably had gotten stronger in Broly and did some training in the Moro arc. I don't think that made them that much stronger, just strong enough to overtake Gohan given how Gohan viewed them as the strongest. So naturally, if Buu/Dai Kaioshin was only weaker than Moro during his peak back on Namek and Moro's peak was only suggested to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta when using Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power, it stands to reason that Buu/Dai Kaioshin should be closer to the likes of Toppo, Kefla, Gohan, Golden Frieza (ToP), etc. rather than SSJR Goku Black who is significantly below Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power.
I’ve seen more than one illogical video or post scaling Piccolo’s forms in Super Hero.
There’s a few points needed to establish the power of Gamma 1 and 2 to get a better sense of where Ultimate Piccolo falls. First, Gamma 1 and 2 are implied to be the same or close to the same level, which is stated to be the highest of all the androids we’ve seen so far. If you use 17 as a basis, then both must be around SSJB level or beyond. In the anime especially, 17 is shown to be at least SSJB level from when we first see him challenge Goku to all of his feats during the ToP. It could be argued he’s closer to SSJBx20 and SSJBE by the end of the ToP given his performance against Toppo and Jiren.
If Gamma 1 and 2 are beyond that level when they fight Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo, then it’s safe to say Ultimate Piccolo is somewhere close to SSJB or a little bit beyond. The Gammas also show an ability to adapt and improve as they fight an opponent, which seems evident when Gamma 2 starts to overpower Ultimate Piccolo as they discuss the true nature of the people inch Dr. Hedo what to do.
If Gamma 2 can be said to have adapted and increased his power to a level even higher than the SSJB when he overpowers Piccolo, then his performance is even more impressive when he transforms. After becoming Orange Piccolo and engaging Gamma 2, the disparity in power is shown in a deliberate and stark contrast with Gamma 2’s attacks having absolutely no effect, and even worse, Piccolo completely incapacitating him with a single attack.
In the history of DB, DBZ, and DBS, showing a character outclassed to that degree is used to indicate the character reached a much higher level than before in his new form. For example, SSJ2 Gohan’s reaction to Cell after the way he fared against him as a SSJ.
Why would this be any different for Piccolo? Clearly, it’s meant to show his increase is drastic and puts him in a class far higher than SSJB. In terms of forms, we’ve seen on a level clearly above SSJB, the Ultra forms are the only two we’ve seen display that drastic a difference.
Now I’m not saying Orange Piccolo is on the same level as the Ultra forms, but I don’t think there’s a reason to think he’s that far behind until we see otherwise.
TLDR version: It’s absurd to place Orange Piccolo at SSJB level, when it’s clear Piccolo is already around that level in his Ultimate form. Purposely showing such a drastic difference in power by Piccolo dominating Gamma 2 after he transforms puts his Orange form much higher than his ultimate. If he’s already SSJB in Ultimate, then it makes more sense to place him closer to the Ultra forms in his Orange form. Although I don’t think he reaches that level yet until we see more of him using the form in the future.
17 is not that strong in the anime. He's weaker than both Golden Freeza and base Toppo. Hell, I would argue he's weaker than Gohan too.
Considering Orange Piccolo managed to take quite a beating from Cell Max without being defeated, I would not put him that much weaker than Ultra Instinct or Final Gohan. Something like this:
Final Gohan | UI Goku: 10
Cell Max: 9
Cell Max [Damaged]: 7
Orange Piccolo: 5
P.S. What a time to be alive for a Piccolo fan huh?
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:47 am
I personally believe Kefla is stronger than Perfected Blue Goku and Vegeta but they presumably had gotten stronger in Broly and did some training in the Moro arc. I don't think that made them that much stronger, just strong enough to overtake Gohan given how Gohan viewed them as the strongest. So naturally, if Buu/Dai Kaioshin was only weaker than Moro during his peak back on Namek and Moro's peak was only suggested to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta when using Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power, it stands to reason that Buu/Dai Kaioshin should be closer to the likes of Toppo, Kefla, Gohan, Golden Frieza (ToP), etc. rather than SSJR Goku Black who is significantly below Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power.
As idiotic as it is, Kefla is not stronger than Goku and Vegeta during the ToP. Gohan is confirmed to be weaker than Goku during his fight with her.
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:47 am
I personally believe Kefla is stronger than Perfected Blue Goku and Vegeta but they presumably had gotten stronger in Broly and did some training in the Moro arc. I don't think that made them that much stronger, just strong enough to overtake Gohan given how Gohan viewed them as the strongest. So naturally, if Buu/Dai Kaioshin was only weaker than Moro during his peak back on Namek and Moro's peak was only suggested to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta when using Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power, it stands to reason that Buu/Dai Kaioshin should be closer to the likes of Toppo, Kefla, Gohan, Golden Frieza (ToP), etc. rather than SSJR Goku Black who is significantly below Super Saiyan Blue at Full Power.
As idiotic as it is, Kefla is not stronger than Goku and Vegeta during the ToP. Gohan is confirmed to be weaker than Goku during his fight with her.
I know the statement you're referring to. I view it as a general statement rather than one that is referring to that specific moment. Gohan has been stronger than Goku in the past but he fell below him because he committed to his responsibilities and neglected his training. If he quit his job, Gohan would have more time and motivation to train which would allow him to be stronger than Goku rather than being temporarily stronger and reverting back to a level way below him.
But in either case, Gohan/Kefla should be close to Goku to warrant such a statement from Kuririn.
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 am
I know the statement you're referring to. I view it as a general statement rather than one that is referring to that specific moment. Gohan has been stronger than Goku in the past but he fell below him because he committed to his responsibilities and neglected his training. If he quit his job, Gohan would have more time and motivation to train which would allow him to be stronger than Goku rather than being temporarily stronger and reverting back to a level way below him.
But in either case, Gohan/Kefla should be close to Goku to warrant such a statement from Kuririn.
You are overcomplicating things. Krillin just wonders if Gohan would be stronger than Goku if he quit his job and trained so this is just a simple confirmation of CSSB Goku > Ultimate Gohan.
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 am
I know the statement you're referring to. I view it as a general statement rather than one that is referring to that specific moment. Gohan has been stronger than Goku in the past but he fell below him because he committed to his responsibilities and neglected his training. If he quit his job, Gohan would have more time and motivation to train which would allow him to be stronger than Goku rather than being temporarily stronger and reverting back to a level way below him.
But in either case, Gohan/Kefla should be close to Goku to warrant such a statement from Kuririn.
You are overcomplicating things. Krillin just wonders if Gohan would be stronger than Goku if he quit his job and trained so this is just a simple confirmation of CSSB Goku > Ultimate Gohan.
Okay I don't agree then but regardless, Gohan should be close to warrant such a statement from Kuririn in the first place.
So why are people ignoring that neither Goku Black nor Fused Zamasu ever mastered/perfected Super Saiyan Rosé (in the manga at least, since this form only exists in the manga)?
Not only it can be argued that current Goku Black is stronger than Kefla (since he was strong enough to force SSB Vegeta to come up with alternative, quirky ways to beat him, in a straight up brawl he was superior to Vegeta), but then during the fight the writers would just have Black figure out how to perfect Rosé. Literally the exact same way Goku did against Fused Zamasu. Then Black would get the upper-hand against Kefla.
After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.
And for the record, I am willing to make the same argument for the anime. Goku survived that long against Kefla, no reason Black can't, especially with his clones hax. Goku tapped into UI while fighting Kefla, no reason why Black can't.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:51 am
After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.
I don’t understand how you made this assumption. Black didn’t accomplish anything remotely close to what Goku did. You are sounding like he can mimic anything Goku can do with at least the same level of efficiency, which never occurred in the anime or in the manga.
Anime: despite seeing a footage of Goku vs. Hit fight he never was able to replicate Kaioken and when he is cornered he resorts to inflict damage on himself to activate a power-up. He also doesn’t understand completely how Saiyans get stronger in the heat of the battle and assumes its only due to anger, when in truth is due to their pride. Goku overpowers Merged Zamasu using that power and he is completely clueless about how Goku managed that.
Manga: he wasn’t able to figure out how Goku and Vegeta can quickly switch between SSG and SSGSS, and even as Merged Zamasu he couldn’t replicate Goku’s control over SSGSS.
So far, Goku Black can only beat regular or incomplete SSGSS on both continuities, nothing beyond that.
