Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

What we also know for years is that power isn't everything. Power isn't the only factor in battle, hax also matters. Just look at Roshi lasting for longer than 1 second against Jiren, or Moro in general as a character.

Kefla might have more raw brute strength than Black, but Black outclasses her in hax, by a lot (which isn't hard, Kefla has no hax whatsoever, all she has is brute physical strength). Black could literally create his own "pocket dimension" and summon an endless army of immortal clones who can evidently hurt two SSBs.

The idea that power alone is enough to conclude that Kefla beats Black would be to ignore all the lessons Super is trying to tell, primarily that hax and technique are just as important as power. So what is Kefla's answer to this technique exactly (sadly there is no manga counterpart, since, as you said, these characters are more pathetic in the manga):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuo5h4HKXY


You say Kefla is 20 times stronger than Black, I can just argue that Black makes up that gap with his endless army of clones, each clone possessing SSB-level AP.

Dude, it's a 20 times power gap. 40 with Super Saiyan 2. There's no scenario where Black beats her. She can speed blitz and kill him with one hit in less than a second.

So was the power gap between Sorbet and Goku and Sorbet still managed to create the conditions to almost kill Goku, under the right circumstances.

Power isn't everything. Power isn't absolute. This is a lesson that Jiren learned in the ToP, after all.

She can't speed-blitz him. In-character she wouldn't oneshot a Goku look-alike, she'd want to fight him and have fun. Once Black creates his endless army of clones, any attempt at speed-blitz is completely and utterly countered, because she'll never get through Black's clone defences.

And I ask again, why can't Black bridge the x20 gap with his endless army of clones with SSB-level AP?

In addition, the pocket dimension Black created was able to completely block Goku's Instant teleportation technique, so who knows what other abilities it can block and what other hax properties it possesses.

I’ll have to agree with SupremeKai25 for once (except the laughable Black > Kefla bit). Goku spent the whole saga lagging behind and

I find it funny how people in this thread act like it's so obvious that "Kefla is stronger than Black" then are completely and utterly dismissive towards me and don't even try to present evidence (like the guy earlier who literally just told me to "watch the show").

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

To begin with, Kefla has no answer whatsoever to the "Work of the Gods" technique. The technique cannot be countered by anything and anyone since it ceases to exist only when Black leaves the scene, and each of the endless clones created by the technique are all able to hurt a Super Saiyan Blue and constantly regenerate any damage taken.

This is a disingenuous argument. We both know that Kefla in both continuities were pitted against stronger opponents. In the manga, Goku Black explicitly lost his battle against Blue Vegeta in the anime

I'm not disingenuous. I actually consider myself impartial. I have no problem believing that Kefla could defeat Black, but I would need to find convincing arguments as to how she counters his multiple hax techniques. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know what you're talking about, if the anime or manga, but either way Black never "lost" to SSB Vegeta.

In the anime, Black was momentarily setback but, once he learned how to weaponize his anger, he dominated the second half of the fight.

In the manga, Black never lost to SSB Vegeta. Black was stronger than SSB Vegeta. If Black was weaker than Vegeta, then Vegeta would not have come up with the whole Red-Blue switching strategy. He would have simply attacked Black in Blue and beaten him. The fact that Vegeta had to think of creative ways to beat Black, had to think "outside the box", is proof that in a straight-up brawl against SSR Black, he didn't have what it takes.

Vegeta has never come up with creative and original strategies to beat his opponents if he could just overpower them. So, he was not strong enough to overpower Black in a straight up fight.

Vegeta looked good against Black only because Black did not know it was an actual strategy to use a weaker form to gain more speed, then switch to the stronger form instantaneously to catch the opponent off-guard.

As I was saying, the lesson of Super is that hax and techniques matter just as much as power, if not more.

It should be clear that based on Kefla's ability to fight someone on par with Perfected Blue Goku, a fighter much stronger than the Blue Vegeta that overwhelmed Goku Black would place Kefla as his superior in the manga. Likewise, Kefla was capable of battling a stronger version of Blue Goku than the one Merged Zamasu did in addition to Goku increasing that power by 20-fold with the Kaioken. Kefla's power was stated to have risen to the power of the Genkidama combo that crashed onto Goku. That attack explicitly was similar to the one Trunks had used to kill Merged Zamasu, was commanded by a much stronger warrior than the one that killed Merged Zamasu, and contained both Jiren's and Goku's energies which caused the Genkidama to expand and then explode. That level of power is far beyond SSJR Goku Black's

This ABC logic based on power alone doesn't work. Super has given relevance to fighters who lack in the power department, but make up for it in the hax department, like Hit, Moro, and Roshi. To think that Black "loses" to Kefla just because he is "weaker" in raw brute strength than Kefla would be to ignore the themes and lessons of Super.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Are we forgetting Black (as Merged Zamasu) was literally defeated by Trunks getting a power of friendship power up and then Goku bringing Zeno? What kind of skill is that?

And if we talk the manga Black had no skills whatsoever, no cool blades or interdimensional portals. SSJB Vegeta made him eat dirt.

SSJ1 Kefla was well matched with KKx20 Goku while Merged Zamasu (Who’s infinitely above Black) was whining about being weak after KKx10 Goku kicked him in the face. Then SSJ2 Kefla surpassed UI Sign Goku…

Black is just one Saiyan, while Kefla is a fusion, her potential clearly excedes his. She’s going to adapt much faster than Black and break his neck before he can do anything.

[SupremeKai25]

Are we forgetting Black (as Merged Zamasu) was literally defeated by Trunks getting a power of friendship power up and then Goku bringing Zeno? What kind of skill is that?

Are we forgetting that Fused Zamasu was explicitly stated to have an unstable body that was literally falling apart, and was tired and exhausted after a long fight with Vegito Blue?

It should also be noted that Black made the mistake of fusing while in Super Saiyan Rosé. It was stated in DBZ that the fusées should always merge in their base forms, otherwise the fused being will feel physical exhaustion. So this was yet another factor that severely weakened Fused Zamasu as a fighter. A weakness that Black obviously would not have, as an unfused individual.

I find it funny that now this thread believes Black did not have skill. Black quite literally was one of the most skilled characters in the entire franchise. As a North Kai, he was revered and praised as a fighting genius and prodigy. When he took a Saiyan body, he was able to truly make that body his own and control it, which Ginyu (a less skilled individual) failed to do.

And if we talk the manga Black had no skills whatsoever, no cool blades or interdimensional portals. SSJB Vegeta made him eat dirt.

We have already acknowledged that manga characters are pathetic compared to the anime counterparts.

This is true for Black, but this is also true for Kefla. In the manga, Kefla was defeated by Gohan, who was always a secondary character in Super (until the latest movie). Kefla wasn't deemed worthy of being fought by a main character in the eyes of Toyotaro.

And by the way, it wasn't SSB Vegeta that made him "eat dirt", it was a special version of Vegeta that constantly alternated between SSB and SSG. The last time Vegeta tried to fight Black only and exclusively in SSB, without any kind of secret technique, he got demolished.

SSJ1 Kefla was well matched with KKx20 Goku while Merged Zamasu (Who’s infinitely above Black) was whining about being weak after KKx10 Goku kicked him in the face. Then SSJ2 Kefla surpassed UI Sign Goku…

ABC logic is meaningless in Super.

Black is just one Saiyan, while Kefla is a fusion, her potential clearly excedes his. She’s going to adapt much faster than Black and break his neck before he can do anything.

Why are we unironically arguing this when Kefla was literally defeated by "just one Saiyan" in both versions?

[Mr Baggins]

*snip*

It's presented sloppily, but yes, that's the intended thrust. I don't think it has anything to do with Bardock's power-up; rather, Goku distinctly implies that his Ultra Instinct (at least the one in the Granolah arc) is nerfed to hell right now, so Sign is his strongest available form with his current emotional state.

It's pretty funny to think that Ultra Ego was actually never on par with Ultra Instinct in-universe, although I'm inclined to believe that was originally the case before Toyotaro went "Oh fuck, I need to think of more ways to prolong this already prolonged fight".

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't place anybody from the ToP above anyone after Moro7-3's introduction. The wish itself put Granola above Moro arc UI Goku, who already stomps the ToP, and Gas topped them all. Gas in the ToP would've oneshot Jiren and Goku at the same time.

Something that could be possible is that the silver UI Goku has displayed up until now isn't as sharp as it should be, the uncalm version, meaning the full scope of it hasn't been seen -as it was effectively seen in previous arcs- so it could potentially have been above Granny all along.

But Goku's uncalmed version of UI should be enough for previous foes.

[Goku9001]

I'm not disingenuous. I actually consider myself impartial. I have no problem believing that Kefla could defeat Black, but I would need to find convincing arguments as to how she counters his multiple hax techniques. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know what you're talking about, if the anime or manga, but either way Black never "lost" to SSB Vegeta.

In the anime, Black was momentarily setback but, once he learned how to weaponize his anger, he dominated the second half of the fight.

In the manga, Black never lost to SSB Vegeta. Black was stronger than SSB Vegeta. If Black was weaker than Vegeta, then Vegeta would not have come up with the whole Red-Blue switching strategy. He would have simply attacked Black in Blue and beaten him. The fact that Vegeta had to think of creative ways to beat Black, had to think "outside the box", is proof that in a straight-up brawl against SSR Black, he didn't have what it takes.

Vegeta has never come up with creative and original strategies to beat his opponents if he could just overpower them. So, he was not strong enough to overpower Black in a straight up fight.

Vegeta looked good against Black only because Black did not know it was an actual strategy to use a weaker form to gain more speed, then switch to the stronger form instantaneously to catch the opponent off-guard.

As I was saying, the lesson of Super is that hax and techniques matter just as much as power, if not more.

The only haxed technique he has are clones which are much weaker than the original and requires him to open a portal where clones are slowly conjured up. In sheer power, Kefla would flat-out blitz him before it ever happens. The scythe isn't creating clones when Kefla would just break the scythe. Regardless of hax and technique, power has always been at the forefront of the series which is why the power of Black and Merged Zamasu were the main things that were highlighted and not their technique.

In the manga, Vegeta's power of Blue was blatantly above Black. The swapping between God and Blue enabled Vegeta to maintain the full power and speed of Blue rather than losing stamina which was explained by Goku. As such, Black was explicitly losing because his full power could not match up to Vegeta's Blue whenever Vegeta attacked and that level of Blue was drastically inferior to Perfected Blue.

This ABC logic based on power alone doesn't work. Super has given relevance to fighters who lack in the power department, but make up for it in the hax department, like Hit, Moro, and Roshi. To think that Black "loses" to Kefla just because he is "weaker" in raw brute strength than Kefla would be to ignore the themes and lessons of Super.

Power seemed to be very important when Merged Zamasu had lost despite his overwhelming technique.

I'm assuming based on this that you agree Kefla is tens of times stronger than Goku Black since there was no rebuttal against this.

[Mr Baggins]

The wish itself put Granola above Moro arc UI Goku

I'd actually say this arc suggests otherwise. Ultra Instinct is an accuracy based form that doesn't rely on sheer power to be effective — in fact, its accuracy dropping over time in Goku's case is the only reason Granolah ever attributed to beating Goku in the first place. It's debatable, at the very least.

But also, both Granolah and Gas are so inexperienced wielding universal tier ki that neither of them could oneshot Blue. Moro easily could, and did. Jiren might lose, but I think he'd give both of them a fight.

[SupremeKai25]

The only haxed technique he has are clones which are much weaker than the original

False, his clones were able to hurt SSB Vegeta and Goku with their kicks and punches, you can see it in the video I linked above.

and requires him to open a portal where clones are slowly conjured up.

The portal is opened instantaneously by simply striking into anywhere with his scythe and the clones were not created slowly at all, based on my counting it takes between 4 and 6 seconds to create several clones simultaneously.

Goku Black spawned his entire army way faster than it took Zamasu to go from point X in the city to Capsule Corps in the same city, while flying at regular speed.

In sheer power, Kefla would flat-out blitz him before it ever happens.

Kefla as a fighter wouldn't speed-blitz a Goku look-alike and just end the fight there, she wants to have fun with her opponent.

Plus it takes time for Kefla to turn SS, during that time Black can just create some clones to defend himself and block any blitzing attempt. Base Kefla's only feat is speed-blitzing an exhausted SSG Goku.

The scythe isn't creating clones when Kefla would just break the scythe.

This is headcanon. There is no evidence whatsoever that the scythe can be broken.

Regardless of hax and technique, power has always been at the forefront of the series which is why the power of Black and Merged Zamasu were the main things that were highlighted and not their technique.

On the contrary, it was explicitly pointed out that Black and Zamasu were an unstoppable duo because, being the same person, they worked perfectly together and their coordination was flawless. And Zamasu was arguably a far greater threat than Black thanks to his Immortality.

When we have a transformation like "Ultra instinct" in the series, it is clear that power is no longer everything.

In the manga, Vegeta's power of Blue was blatantly above Black. The swapping between God and Blue enabled Vegeta to maintain the full power and speed of Blue rather than losing stamina which was explained by Goku.

Ergo, using SSB alone was not enough to beat Black. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered coming up with that contrived strategy.

Power seemed to be very important when Merged Zamasu had lost despite his overwhelming technique.

What does this mean? I don't remember Zamasu ever using any of the hax Black showed (I wonder why...).

I'm assuming based on this that you agree Kefla is tens of times stronger than Goku Black since there was no rebuttal against this.

No, I already said Black can make up that gap with his clones.

[Koitsukai]

The wish itself put Granola above Moro arc UI Goku

I'd actually say this arc suggests otherwise. Ultra Instinct is an accuracy based form that doesn't rely on sheer power to be effective — in fact, its accuracy dropping over time in Goku's case is the only reason Granolah ever attributed to beating Goku in the first place. It's debatable, at the very least.

But also, both Granolah and Gas are so inexperienced wielding universal tier ki that neither of them could oneshot Blue. Moro easily could, and did. Jiren might lose, but I think he'd give both of them a fight.

Whether Granny surpassed UI Goku is out for grabs ever since that chapter, and the arc seems to be going that way, that perhaps Goku was always the strongest and yet couldn't show it for reasons.

Anyway, Granola destroyed UE Vegeta, who should be above Moro73, unless everybody is getting nerfed. I have my problems with SSB lasting for so long against people that strong, but it seems that UI was what kept him alive.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Are we forgetting that Fused Zamasu was explicitly stated to have an unstable body that was literally falling apart, and was tired and exhausted after a long fight with Vegito Blue?

It should also be noted that Black made the mistake of fusing while in Super Saiyan Rosé. It was stated in DBZ that the fusées should always merge in their base forms, otherwise the fused being will feel physical exhaustion. So this was yet another factor that severely weakened Fused Zamasu as a fighter. A weakness that Black obviously would not have, as an unfused individual.

So Zamasu actually defeated himself, which is even worse.

When is that stated? Closest thing to that I remember is Old Kaioshin saying SSJ forms shorten your lifespan, but this is a long term effect he brought up way before fusion.

We have already acknowledged that manga characters are pathetic compared to the anime counterparts.

Good. The manga sucks ass tbh.

ABC logic is meaningless in Super.

Why?

Why are we unironically arguing this when Kefla was literally defeated by "just one Saiyan" in both versions?

A Saiyan with powers even the gods couldn’t achieve. Big difference. Meanwhile Black simply decided he couldn’t beat the Saiyans on his own and decided to fuse.

[HeroR]

Are we forgetting that Fused Zamasu was explicitly stated to have an unstable body that was literally falling apart, and was tired and exhausted after a long fight with Vegito Blue?

It should also be noted that Black made the mistake of fusing while in Super Saiyan Rosé. It was stated in DBZ that the fusées should always merge in their base forms, otherwise the fused being will feel physical exhaustion. So this was yet another factor that severely weakened Fused Zamasu as a fighter. A weakness that Black obviously would not have, as an unfused individual.

So Zamasu actually defeated himself, which is even worse.

When is that stated? Closest thing to that I remember is Old Kaioshin saying SSJ forms shorten your lifespan, but this is a long term effect he brought up way before fusion.

We have already acknowledged that manga characters are pathetic compared to the anime counterparts.

Good. The manga sucks ass tbh.

ABC logic is meaningless in Super.

Why?

Why are we unironically arguing this when Kefla was literally defeated by "just one Saiyan" in both versions?

A Saiyan with powers even the gods couldn’t achieve. Big difference. Meanwhile Black simply decided he couldn’t beat the Saiyans on his own and decided to fuse.

That and Kelfa lost to UI Sign Goku, a form that gods revere. Fusion Zamasu in the anime got his face melted by normal Blue Goku and then kicked in the head by Blue Kaioken. In comparison, Kelfa knocked Goku out of Blue Kaioken with a kick.

[ankokudaishogun]

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

the one where Goku did need Blue Kaiohken to keep up with SS1 Kefla.

While Goku and Vegeta were having a hard time against Rosé because of the "Suddenly Clones" technique that makes so little sense even Black had no idea what the hell happened, that was evident caused by the increase in NUMBERS of their enemies(arguably all in God or Blue class, if obviously weaker than the original), and they were still somehow keeping up.
Vegeta DID avoid Black's scythe, after all.

So, yeah. No way in hell Anime Black was stronger than Anime Kefla, even with his bullshit powers... which were arguably NOT HIS OWN.
At least the clones: they came from the slash in space Black didn't understand. It's thus impossible to know if he could replicate it.



Now, the manga is a whole otter affair.
No doubt Kefla is Blue Class, but we don't have enough other comparisons to adequately gauge her power compared to Black who himself is Blue-class.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That and Kelfa lost to UI Sign Goku, a form that gods revere. Fusion Zamasu in the anime got his face melted by normal Blue Goku and then kicked in the head by Blue Kaioken. In comparison, Kelfa knocked Goku out of Blue Kaioken with a kick.

Yup. Merged Zamasu was pretty unimpressive before he started mutating, which follows AT’s notes saying the Saiyans could hold their own against MZ.

Kefla did catch Goku from behind and they were nearing the end of their fight though. Vados or Whis even said whoever lands the next blow would win the fight IIRC.

[Thani]

Ok so, in both mediums Black is obviously weaker than Kefla. God Zamas should be stronger than her by virtue of being roughly equal to CSSB Goku/Vegeta, in the manga, but that's only partly Black. Roughly the same applies in the anime, where God Zamas is also much stronger than his manga counterpart. But Black himself? He definitely loses in the raw power department.

That doesn't mean he can't hold his own against Kefla. At least in the anime. He's at a severe disadvantage, for sure, but there's no reason he couldn't hang out there with his combat skill and creative use of his unique techniques. Would he eventually lose? Most likely yes, just like Goku. Would he offer at least the same level of resistance, even without kaioken at his disposal? Idk, maybe? He could try to wear her out with his clones (if he can even use them in the World of Void, with no time and space). But the thing is, at the very least, SS2 Kefla's final ki barrage would definetely one-shot him if he's hit, so his chances are nonetheless pretty slim overall.

In the manga he would just straight-up lose. He shouldn't be too far from CSSB (since it was almost that power that allowed Vegeta to beat him), but he's too much of a bully to actually put a fight against someone stronger than him - he would just start getting flustered and desperate, like all bullies do, and would eventually make a huge mistake.

That's just my two cents tho.

[ZombieVito]

In the manga he would just straight-up lose. He shouldn't be too far from CSSB (since it was almost that power that allowed Vegeta to beat him), but he's too much of a bully to actually put a fight against someone stronger than him - he would just start getting flustered and desperate, like all bullies do, and would eventually make a huge mistake.

That's just my two cents tho.

He's actually very far from CSSB. Merged Zamasus's fusion boost is confirmed to be big so the difference between the normal SSB and CSSB is big as well. Vegeta also never uses CSSB in that arc. His switch technique uses the regular SSB transformation.

I also feel Black's clone technique is a little overrated. It's very useful if the clones are close in power to Black's opponents (As shown in the anime) but if said opponents are far stronger than him then they shouldn't be a problem. Kefla could just pull a Frost and do a big shockwave that eliminates all the clones for a second and one shot Black by speed blitz him. A 20-40 times gap in a very big fucking power gap.

[HeroR]

That and Kelfa lost to UI Sign Goku, a form that gods revere. Fusion Zamasu in the anime got his face melted by normal Blue Goku and then kicked in the head by Blue Kaioken. In comparison, Kelfa knocked Goku out of Blue Kaioken with a kick.

Yup. Merged Zamasu was pretty unimpressive before he started mutating, which follows AT’s notes saying the Saiyans could hold their own against MZ.

Kefla did catch Goku from behind and they were nearing the end of their fight though. Vados or Whis even said whoever lands the next blow would win the fight IIRC.

Fusion Zamasu was impressive with his JRPG moveset. The problem was that he was like Gotenks. A lot of power, but was too full of himself to be serious until Goku literally melted his face. He literally could have killed Goku and Vegeta the moment he fused, but he just wouldn't shut up.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

*snip*

It's presented sloppily, but yes, that's the intended thrust. I don't think it has anything to do with Bardock's power-up; rather, Goku distinctly implies that his Ultra Instinct (at least the one in the Granolah arc) is nerfed to hell right now, so Sign is his strongest available form with his current emotional state.

It's pretty funny to think that Ultra Ego was actually never on par with Ultra Instinct in-universe, although I'm inclined to believe that was originally the case before Toyotaro went "Oh fuck, I need to think of more ways to prolong this already prolonged fight".

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

[Goku9001]

False, his clones were able to hurt SSB Vegeta and Goku with their kicks and punches, you can see it in the video I linked above.

That doesn't make sense given that Goku and Vegeta were able to eliminate the clones but overwhelmed by the sheer number of them. This would mean that Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta, prior to advancing their powers further against Merged Zamasu and against Jiren & Kefla (in the case of Goku), were already powerful enough to wound SSJR Goku Black at his peak.

and requires him to open a portal where clones are slowly conjured up.

The portal is opened instantaneously by simply striking into anywhere with his scythe and the clones were not created slowly at all, based on my counting it takes between 4 and 6 seconds to create several clones simultaneously.

Goku Black spawned his entire army way faster than it took Zamasu to go from point X in the city to Capsule Corps in the same city, while flying at regular speed.

That's honestly not that fast.

In sheer power, Kefla would flat-out blitz him before it ever happens.

Kefla as a fighter wouldn't speed-blitz a Goku look-alike and just end the fight there, she wants to have fun with her opponent.

Plus it takes time for Kefla to turn SS, during that time Black can just create some clones to defend himself and block any blitzing attempt. Base Kefla's only feat is speed-blitzing an exhausted SSG Goku.

This is disingenuous. For one, you are assuming that Black would start the fight in Rose. And to top that off, would begin the fight with a scythe rather than attempt to grow stronger as he did against Goku and Vegeta for example. Assume the best for Black and conveniently assume the worst for Kefla.

Goku's form is irrelevant. Goku's power rose significantly against Merged Zamasu, Jiren, and during his battle with Caulifa. Berserker Kale was a power that Toppo was impressed by. Blue Vegeta was explicitly concerned about it, the same Vegeta who overpowered Merged Zamasu and then trained prior to the Tournament of Power. Yet with just his God power, he managed to push back a much stronger version of Kale. Vegeta even caught wind of Base Kefla's power. This is dishonest argumentation by throwing in a superficial detail and omitting all of the facts surrounding it.

The scythe isn't creating clones when Kefla would just break the scythe.

This is headcanon. There is no evidence whatsoever that the scythe can be broken.

Okay so according to you, a power that is equal to the Genkidama combo that crashed onto Goku which is a stronger variant of the same attack Trunks used to defeat Merged Zamasu, cannot break Goku Black's scythe. Got it.

On the contrary, it was explicitly pointed out that Black and Zamasu were an unstoppable duo because, being the same person, they worked perfectly together and their coordination was flawless. And Zamasu was arguably a far greater threat than Black thanks to his Immortality.

Which has nothing to do with how Goku Black performs as an individual.

When we have a transformation like "Ultra instinct" in the series, it is clear that power is no longer everything.

On the contrary, power was the reason why he nearly lost to Kefla.

Ergo, using SSB alone was not enough to beat Black. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered coming up with that contrived strategy.

Blue Vegeta would lose because his stamina would falter eventually. Being able to maintain maximum output during his match with Goku Black enabled him to overcome him. The maximum output of Blue Vegeta is vastly inferior to Perfected Blue. This was demonstrated against Merged Zamasu.

What does this mean? I don't remember Zamasu ever using any of the hax Black showed (I wonder why...).

He has more power, immortality, all of Black's Saiyan characteristics, and access to all of his techniques in addition to techniques that are exclusive to him. Despite using many of those techniques, he still lost to the Saiyans. You're now projecting your own assumptions into this debate rather than simply using what we know and can infer.

No, I already said Black can make up that gap with his clones.

I'm strictly talking about power here.

[SupremeKai25]

Lol. Fused Zamasu was not impressive when he was effortlessly oneshotting everyone in his way with his eyes closed.

[Berserker1921]

*snip*

It's presented sloppily, but yes, that's the intended thrust. I don't think it has anything to do with Bardock's power-up; rather, Goku distinctly implies that his Ultra Instinct (at least the one in the Granolah arc) is nerfed to hell right now, so Sign is his strongest available form with his current emotional state.

It's pretty funny to think that Ultra Ego was actually never on par with Ultra Instinct in-universe, although I'm inclined to believe that was originally the case before Toyotaro went "Oh fuck, I need to think of more ways to prolong this already prolonged fight".

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well it depends on who you ask. Toriyama still thinks highly of Jiren. Especially if you seen or heard about DBS superhero spoilers or read the novel. He also references Jiren and Broly to the gods. So he must think highly of them.

But if we go with toyotaro, Beerus is still much stronger than Goku, Vegeta, granola, and gas. Don’t know about Jiren and the gods to them.