Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

It's presented sloppily, but yes, that's the intended thrust. I don't think it has anything to do with Bardock's power-up; rather, Goku distinctly implies that his Ultra Instinct (at least the one in the Granolah arc) is nerfed to hell right now, so Sign is his strongest available form with his current emotional state.

It's pretty funny to think that Ultra Ego was actually never on par with Ultra Instinct in-universe, although I'm inclined to believe that was originally the case before Toyotaro went "Oh fuck, I need to think of more ways to prolong this already prolonged fight".

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well it depends on who you ask. Toriyama still thinks highly of Jiren. Especially if you seen or heard about DBS superhero spoilers or read the novel. He also references Jiren and Broly to the gods. So he must think highly of them.

But if we go with toyotaro, Beerus is still much stronger than Goku, Vegeta, granola, and gas. Don’t know about Jiren and the gods to them.

Toyo more or less avoids the subject. Which is why Jiren nor Broly get mentioned outside of Broly in a summary that wasn’t even in the original print.

Going by scaling, Beerus was stronger than Merus since Goku stuck even with Moro using Merus’ power before he imploded. Which I don’t think Toyo wanted since that would say Beerus is stronger than an angel, even if he was a trainee, and Toyo already said he regretted making UI so powerful.

[Thani]

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well it depends on who you ask. Toriyama still thinks highly of Jiren. Especially if you seen or heard about DBS superhero spoilers or read the novel. He also references Jiren and Broly to the gods. So he must think highly of them.

But if we go with toyotaro, Beerus is still much stronger than Goku, Vegeta, granola, and gas. Don’t know about Jiren and the gods to them.

Toyo more or less avoids the subject. Which is why Jiren nor Broly get mentioned outside of Broly in a summary that wasn’t even in the original print.

Going by scaling, Beerus was stronger than Merus since Goku stuck even with Moro using Merus’ power before he imploded. Which I don’t think Toyo wanted since that would say Beerus is stronger than an angel, even if he was a trainee, and Toyo already said he regretted making UI so powerful.

I think that can easily be solved by just having Moro use UI, instead of having an actual boost in power overall. He didn't get stronger when he copied Vegeta, after all.

I think Moro-73 works fine as just being Prime Moro plus a slight boost from 7-3. Prime Moro was already pretty strong already, and only lost to Vegeta because he was unaware of Spirit Fission. Moro-73 can be like 10% stronger or less and still manhandle Vegeta by just, this time, being careful to not allow his foe any hits.

[Mr Baggins]

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well, there's a lot to unpack here.

Jiren is an interesting case in that being from a different universe effectively makes him outside the purview of Granolah's wish, and he managed to force Goku out of a very calm (and calmer = better) UI. However, that's only because UI Goku's stamina drainage was too much to consistently keep up with Jiren's increased speed and strength, and as Whis said, he hadn't trained enough to wield it properly yet. By the next arc's climax, he's much more proficient at using it; that plot point is made exceedingly clear through his fight against UI Moro. Moro was also called Goku's toughest opponent ever at the time, for whatever that's worth.

Hence, Gas > Granolah > Moro > Jiren is probably the most straightforward, DB-like reading of his standing relative to other antagonists. That doesn't mean that Jiren's strength isn't still relevant in its own right, given his "immeasurable potential" and unique fighting style briefly mentioned in the manga and expounded upon in Super Hero. But power-wise, he's only ever mentioned to be stronger than Belmod.

As for Belmod, well... he's just Belmod. It's pretty heavily implied during the Universe Survival arc's exhibition match that Beerus is comfortably stronger than his fellow Gods of Destruction, with the exception of his rival Quitela. Belmod made it to the end of that match by playing possum, though you could argue his performance outstripped a lot of the other GoDs. Beerus told Vegeta just a chapter earlier that he could pass for a God of Destruction candidate in a different universe, so even back then, there was already precedence for the idea that not all GoDs are equal.

Thus, it's probably the case that Beerus is stronger than both Jiren and Belmod to a considerable degree. Beerus is ultimately still a big fat mystery, though, given Super's comparisons with Blue Vegetto and Broly. This kind of thing really is up to the whims of the writers, I think, but it's clear that they want to leave him as this ambiguous goalpost for now.

[HeroR]

Well it depends on who you ask. Toriyama still thinks highly of Jiren. Especially if you seen or heard about DBS superhero spoilers or read the novel. He also references Jiren and Broly to the gods. So he must think highly of them.

But if we go with toyotaro, Beerus is still much stronger than Goku, Vegeta, granola, and gas. Don’t know about Jiren and the gods to them.

Toyo more or less avoids the subject. Which is why Jiren nor Broly get mentioned outside of Broly in a summary that wasn’t even in the original print.

Going by scaling, Beerus was stronger than Merus since Goku stuck even with Moro using Merus’ power before he imploded. Which I don’t think Toyo wanted since that would say Beerus is stronger than an angel, even if he was a trainee, and Toyo already said he regretted making UI so powerful.

I think that can easily be solved by just having Moro use UI, instead of having an actual boost in power overall. He didn't get stronger when he copied Vegeta, after all.

I think Moro-73 works fine as just being Prime Moro plus a slight boost from 7-3. Prime Moro was already pretty strong already, and only lost to Vegeta because he was unaware of Spirit Fission. Moro-73 can be like 10% stronger or less and still manhandle Vegeta by just, this time, being careful to not allow his foe any hits.

Moro got stronger. He went from literally breaking his arm on Goku’s chest to being able to hurt him. You can’t handwave that with just moving on your own.

Moro more or less said that wasn’t a slight boost when he ate 73.

[HeroR]

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well, there's a lot to unpack here.

Jiren is an interesting case in that being from a different universe effectively makes him outside the purview of Granolah's wish, and he managed to force Goku out of a very calm (and calmer = better) UI. However, that's only because UI Goku's stamina drainage was too much to consistently keep up with Jiren's increased speed and strength, and as Whis said, he hadn't trained enough to wield it properly yet. By the next arc's climax, he's much more proficient at using it; that plot point is made exceedingly clear through his fight against UI Moro. Moro was also called Goku's toughest opponent ever at the time, for whatever that's worth.

Hence, Gas > Granolah > Moro > Jiren is probably the most straightforward, DB-like reading of his standing relative to other antagonists. That doesn't mean that Jiren's strength isn't still relevant in its own right, given his "immeasurable potential" and unique fighting style briefly mentioned in the manga and expounded upon in Super Hero. But power-wise, he's only ever mentioned to be stronger than Belmod.

As for Belmod, well... he's just Belmod. It's pretty heavily implied during the Universe Survival arc's exhibition match that Beerus is comfortably stronger than his fellow Gods of Destruction, with the exception of his rival Quitela. Belmod made it to the end of that match by playing possum, though you could argue his performance outstripped a lot of the other GoDs. Beerus told Vegeta just a chapter earlier that he could pass for a God of Destruction candidate in a different universe, so even back then, there was already precedence for the idea that not all GoDs are equal.

Thus, it's probably the case that Beerus is stronger than both Jiren and Belmod to a considerable degree. Beerus is ultimately still a big fat mystery, though, given Super's comparisons with Blue Vegetto and Broly. This kind of thing really is up to the whims of the writers, I think, but it's clear that they want to leave him as this ambiguous goalpost for now.

People take that quote too literally since it’s an old saying. It’s basically saying ‘I’m above others in my rank’ as a brag. Like me saying you can be CEO of another company.

Also, Beerus wasn’t way above the other gods since after dodging a little he got caught in all the gimmick of the other gods and was barely standing at the end.

Toriyama has been pretty constant with Beerus’ power after they omitted the 70% line. The people who said to be in Beerus’ power range, Jiren and Broly, are still said to be in Beerus’ range in Super Hero. So Beerus isn’t that ambiguous. Toyo is the one being wishy-washy.

[Thani]

Toyo more or less avoids the subject. Which is why Jiren nor Broly get mentioned outside of Broly in a summary that wasn’t even in the original print.

Going by scaling, Beerus was stronger than Merus since Goku stuck even with Moro using Merus’ power before he imploded. Which I don’t think Toyo wanted since that would say Beerus is stronger than an angel, even if he was a trainee, and Toyo already said he regretted making UI so powerful.

I think that can easily be solved by just having Moro use UI, instead of having an actual boost in power overall. He didn't get stronger when he copied Vegeta, after all.

I think Moro-73 works fine as just being Prime Moro plus a slight boost from 7-3. Prime Moro was already pretty strong already, and only lost to Vegeta because he was unaware of Spirit Fission. Moro-73 can be like 10% stronger or less and still manhandle Vegeta by just, this time, being careful to not allow his foe any hits.

Moro got stronger. He went from literally breaking his arm on Goku’s chest to being able to hurt him. You can’t handwave that with just moving on your own.

Moro more or less said that wasn’t a slight boost when he ate 73.

Considering that moment was explained away by Whis as "the body hardening on it's own", then I think you actually can. It's a gimmick of Ultra Instinct more than a raw power thing. You can even argue that Angel Moro, because of UI, could strike with much greater force because his body was moving on it's own (and indeed it's also UI works), enough to cause damage to Goku. Like Jiren said about UI, it's greatest strength might not even be raw power, but the capacity to punch way above your weight class.

[Mr Baggins]

People take that quote too literally since it’s an old saying. It’s basically saying ‘I’m above others in my rank’ as a brag. Like me saying you can be CEO of another company.

Nah, you're misinterpreting the text. Beerus beats Vegeta, tells him it would be a long time before he gets to his level, then is super specific that he would still perhaps qualify as a candidate for the God of Destruction role (i.e. Toppo) in another universe, as a compliment to how far he's come. That's the narrative comparing Vegeta to Toppo's position in the following chapters. It's not even vague about that.

Beerus's statement is as straightforward as it gets. The God of Destruction range, especially qualifications for candidacy, is nowhere near limited to just his level.

Also, Beerus wasn’t way above the other gods since after dodging a little he got caught in all the gimmick of the other gods and was barely standing at the end.

They were literally teaming up against him at the start of the match, with Beerus confidently telling them they couldn't do anything to him on their own. Then he dodges them, tricks them multiple times, and throws a giant ki blast at them that none could avoid without Sidra's barrier; one of them even remarks they would've been toast without it. It's not until the following chapter that things get dicey for Beerus (and of course they would — it's a battle royale) and even then, he's the last one standing along with Quitela. The intent is crystal clear that Beerus is at least one of the strongest GoDs, if not the #1 fighter in that position.

The exact difference between Beerus and Belmod specifically is more debatable, although Beerus had no trouble fighting Belmod + other GoDs simultaneously after the match kicked off. The fact of the matter is that the manga has been coy about Beerus's strength from the very start, particularly since it made a point to only compare Jiren with his own God of Destruction.

[HeroR]

People take that quote too literally since it’s an old saying. It’s basically saying ‘I’m above others in my rank’ as a brag. Like me saying you can be CEO of another company.

Nah, you're misinterpreting the text. Beerus beats Vegeta, tells him it would be a long time before he gets to his level, then is super specific that he would still perhaps qualify as a candidate for the God of Destruction role (i.e. Toppo) in another universe, as a compliment to how far he's come. That's the narrative comparing Vegeta to Toppo's position in the following chapters. It's not even vague about that.

Beerus's statement is as straightforward as it gets. The God of Destruction range, especially qualifications for candidacy, is nowhere near limited to just his level.

Also, Beerus wasn’t way above the other gods since after dodging a little he got caught in all the gimmick of the other gods and was barely standing at the end.

They were literally teaming up against him at the start of the match, with Beerus confidently telling them they couldn't do anything to him on their own. Then he dodges them, tricks them multiple times, and throws a giant ki blast at them that none could avoid without Sidra's barrier; one of them even remarks they would've been toast without it. It's not until the following chapter that things get dicey for Beerus (and of course they would — it's a battle royale) and even then, he's the last one standing along with Quitela. The intent is crystal clear that Beerus is at least one of the strongest GoDs, if not the #1 fighter in that position.

The exact difference between Beerus and Belmod specifically is more debatable, although Beerus had no trouble fighting Belmod + other GoDs simultaneously after the match kicked off. The fact of the matter is that the manga has been coy about Beerus's strength from the very start, particularly since it made a point to only compare Jiren with his own God of Destruction.

I read the text several times and I'm telling you that is an old anime cliche line. Whitebeard told Shanks something similar in One Piece. And even if Toppo is a God of Destruction candidate, he isn't near Belmond.

That was only the first part of the royal. Once the U3 god grabbed him, Beerus got beating up just like everyone else, including being trapped by Belmond and stunned by the U10 god. You can't just used Beerus' performance for the first half. And even if Beerus is one of the stronger gods, the fact is that none of the Gods are in a different tier from one another.

Beerus didn't so much so much fight the other gods so much as dodged and used their own aggression against them, which is more of a skill feat than strength. Something that was used in the reboot of Karate Kid.

"compare Jiren with his own God of Destruction."

And the fact is that there was nothing showing that Beerus was stronger than Belmond. Even if we saw Beerus was stronger, the royal still showed that the Gods are more or less even with one another because if Beerus was in a different tier, he wouldn't have been hurt at all outside of the mouse god. Just look at Vegeta vs Cui who only had a small power difference and Vegeta wasted Cui. Which means even in the manga, Jiren is on par with Beerus.

I think that can easily be solved by just having Moro use UI, instead of having an actual boost in power overall. He didn't get stronger when he copied Vegeta, after all.

I think Moro-73 works fine as just being Prime Moro plus a slight boost from 7-3. Prime Moro was already pretty strong already, and only lost to Vegeta because he was unaware of Spirit Fission. Moro-73 can be like 10% stronger or less and still manhandle Vegeta by just, this time, being careful to not allow his foe any hits.

Moro got stronger. He went from literally breaking his arm on Goku’s chest to being able to hurt him. You can’t handwave that with just moving on your own.

Moro more or less said that wasn’t a slight boost when he ate 73.

Considering that moment was explained away by Whis as "the body hardening on it's own", then I think you actually can. It's a gimmick of Ultra Instinct more than a raw power thing. You can even argue that Angel Moro, because of UI, could strike with much greater force because his body was moving on it's own (and indeed it's also UI works), enough to cause damage to Goku. Like Jiren said about UI, it's greatest strength might not even be raw power, but the capacity to punch way above your weight class.

Harden on its own is still a strength feat. Like no one in the current arc broke their hand on Goku's chest when in UI because Granolah and Gas are stronger than Goku. Striking with greater force would still end with him breaking his hand on Goku. It would be like you striking with greater force against a brick wall.

Jiren with UI would be more powerful and striking with greater force since UI has shown to be a big jump in power. Like you using more force or being more accurate isn't going to make you knock down a brick wall.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo rivals Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Unless they come up with something truly ludicrous for Majin Buu or 17 and 18, Piccolo is officially the 4th strongest person on the entire planet.

[ZombieVito]

Unless they come up with something truly ludicrous for Majin Buu or 17 and 18, Piccolo is officially the 4th strongest person on the entire planet.

5th strongest mortal in the universe.

I'm so happy.

[HeroR]

Unless they come up with something truly ludicrous for Majin Buu or 17 and 18, Piccolo is officially the 4th strongest person on the entire planet.

5th strongest mortal in the universe.

I'm so happy.

Hard to say with 17 since they’ve been no mention of him since the TOP if we don’t count the manga. I mean, 17 could be stronger as far as we know given the power boost they gave him after Cell ate him. Remember, 17 was stronger than Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

[Mr Baggins]

I read the text several times and I'm telling you that is an old anime cliche line.

Good god, this is such an absurdly incoherent point that I'm not even sure where to begin.

Beerus isn't using some fake backhanded figure of speech he heard from One Piece. He's specifically complimenting Vegeta on his rapid growth, then goes on to say that Vegeta could probably pass for a God of Destruction candidate in another universe. It's a simple, straightforward line; you don't need to jump through hoops to argue that the dialogue doesn't actually mean what it means. That's incredibly dishonest.

Jesus.

And even if Toppo is a God of Destruction candidate, he isn't near Belmond.

There's no "even if", he is a God of Destruction candidate. The range of power considered acceptable for the position goes from Toppo to Beerus. This isn't rocket science. Vegeta isn't qualified to be a candidate in his universe, but Toppo is in his own. The implication is obvious on its face.

You can't just used Beerus' performance for the first half. And even if Beerus is one of the stronger gods, the fact is that none of the Gods are in a different tier from one another.

1. I can, and I did. Beerus was easily dodging multiple GoDs that were all ganging up on him, then a few pages later he's casually hurling a blast that forced them on the defensive and even had one of them commenting that their hides were only saved thanks to Sidra's barrier. Beerus outright said that none of these guys could take him one-on-one. They could barely take him five-on-one. No getting around that.

2. The first half of the fight says otherwise. The second half of the fight, just like the Tournament of Power, shows that even larger gaps can be closed with the chaotic distractions and prolonged stamina wear-downs of a battle royale. The problem isn't other people taking statements the wrong way, it's you not interpreting the story as it's presented.

And the fact is that there was nothing showing that Beerus was stronger than Belmond.

Nah, that's not how this works. The burden of proof isn't on me to demonstrate that Jiren doesn't compare to Beerus when no comparison was mentioned, it's on you to demonstrate that he does when the only definitive comparison is between Jiren and Belmod.

There are only two facts here: A. there's no God of Destruction "level", it's a wide range, and B. Jiren was only said to be stronger than Belmod, and that's it. Everything else is unsubstantiated inference.

[ZombieVito]

Hard to say with 17 since they’ve been no mention of him since the TOP if we don’t count the manga. I mean, 17 could be stronger as far as we know given the power boost they gave him after Cell ate him. Remember, 17 was stronger than Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

I seriously doubt 17 reaches UI tier. SSB tier was probably his ceiling.

[Mr Baggins]

Also, I figured Orange Piccolo would be up there. Ultimate Piccolo was already the Blue tier form.

[HeroR]

I read the text several times and I'm telling you that is an old anime cliche line.

Good god, this is such an absurdly incoherent point that I'm not even sure where to begin.

Beerus isn't using some fake backhanded figure of speech he heard from One Piece. He's specifically complimenting Vegeta on his rapid growth, then goes on to say that Vegeta could probably pass for a God of Destruction candidate in another universe. It's a simple, straightforward line; you don't need to jump through hoops to argue that the dialogue doesn't actually mean what it means. That's incredibly dishonest.

Jesus.

And even if Toppo is a God of Destruction candidate, he isn't near Belmond.

There's no "even if", he is a God of Destruction candidate. The range of power considered acceptable for the position goes from Toppo to Beerus. This isn't rocket science. Vegeta isn't qualified to be a candidate in his universe, but Toppo is in his own. The implication is obvious on its face.

You can't just used Beerus' performance for the first half. And even if Beerus is one of the stronger gods, the fact is that none of the Gods are in a different tier from one another.

1. I can, and I did. Beerus was easily dodging multiple GoDs that were all ganging up on him, then a few pages later he's casually hurling a blast that forced them on the defensive and even had one of them commenting that their hides were only saved thanks to Sidra's barrier. Beerus outright said that none of these guys could take him one-on-one. They could barely take him five-on-one. No getting around that.

2. The first half of the fight says otherwise. The second half of the fight, just like the Tournament of Power, shows that even larger gaps can be closed with the chaotic distractions and prolonged stamina wear-downs of a battle royale. The problem isn't other people taking statements the wrong way, it's you not interpreting the story as it's presented.

And the fact is that there was nothing showing that Beerus was stronger than Belmond.

Nah, that's not how this works. The burden of proof isn't on me to demonstrate that Jiren doesn't compare to Beerus when no comparison was mentioned, it's on you to demonstrate that he does when the only definitive comparison is between Jiren and Belmod.

There are only two facts here: A. there's no God of Destruction "level", it's a wide range, and B. Jiren was only said to be stronger than Belmod, and that's it. Everything else is unsubstantiated inference.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? One Piece was just an example of that statement being said. Not that it was where Beerus got it from.

“He's specifically complimenting Vegeta on his rapid growth, then goes on to say that Vegeta could probably pass for a God of Destruction candidate”

Except he didn’t say candidate, he just said God of Destruction. It was both a compliment and a boost about himself, another thing common in anime.

Don’t see how I’m being dishonest about lines I’ve heard in several other anime so I don’t take them literal.

Beerus is an actual God of Destruction. Toppo isn’t. He’s just a candidate. Also Vegeta can be a candidate given how many times Whis asked Goku to be a God of Destruction and Vegeta is more or less even with Goku. He just don’t want to be. Toppo even says this in the manga where Jiren turned down being a God of Destruction just like Goku.

If Beerus was wild my more powerful, he would be bruised up and barely able to stand in the end or being caught by Belmond or stunned by U10’s god screaming.

The implications being all the gods are closed in power with all of them being able to hurt one another.

[HeroR]

Hard to say with 17 since they’ve been no mention of him since the TOP if we don’t count the manga. I mean, 17 could be stronger as far as we know given the power boost they gave him after Cell ate him. Remember, 17 was stronger than Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

I seriously doubt 17 reaches UI tier. SSB tier was probably his ceiling.

Let me asked you, after watching Resurrection ‘F’ for the first time in 2015 would you have found it believable if I said 17 would stomped both Goku and Frieza easily? Or after watching Battle of Gods for the first time that Frieza had the latent power to make Super Saiyan God his bitch?

Dragon Ball characters have no ceiling.

[Mr Baggins]

Except he didn’t say candidate, he just said God of Destruction. It was both a compliment and a boost about himself, another thing common in anime.

Yeah, I think I'm done here.

Next time, go back and reference the thing that you're talking about before making wildly obtuse claims about dialogue that you apparently don't even remember.

[HeroR]

Except he didn’t say candidate, he just said God of Destruction. It was both a compliment and a boost about himself, another thing common in anime.

Yeah, I think I'm done here.

Next time, go back and reference the thing that you're talking about before making wildly obtuse claims about dialogue that you apparently don't even remember.

I know the panel. I read it when the chapter first released, thank you. Guess what, my statement hasn’t changed since I’ve seen such statements before. But I was wrong about the candidate part. Although saying Vegeta can’t be a candidate in U7 is wrong given Goku was offered being a God of Destruction in Battle of Gods.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

It depends how this works. Was a complete Cell Max meant to be any stronger than an incomplete Cell Max? Or is the difference purely that a complete Cell Max would have had intelligence, strategic and fighting skills but because he was incomplete he was just a dumb monster throwing his weight around?

In which case Cell Max would be more powerful than Broly but would lose to him in a fight.

Or is he simply just not as powerful as Broly?

This is also telling with the Orange Piccolo comment and him rivalling Goku. In other words as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly is still above Goku and Vegeta.

How Gohan fits in to that is another matter.