Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

It depends how this works. Was a complete Cell Max meant to be any stronger than an incomplete Cell Max? Or is the difference purely that a complete Cell Max would have had intelligence, strategic and fighting skills but because he was incomplete he was just a dumb monster throwing his weight around?

In which case Cell Max would be more powerful than Broly but would lose to him in a fight.

Or is he simply just not as powerful as Broly?

This is also telling with the Orange Piccolo comment and him rivalling Goku. In other words as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly is still above Goku and Vegeta.

How Gohan fits in to that is another matter.

Not necessarily since Toriyama tends to compare villain’s power with other villains, not the heroes. But it wouldn’t be surprising if Broly was stronger since we don’t even know if movie Goku can use UI and Broly is within Beerus’ power range.

[ZombieVito]

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

It depends how this works. Was a complete Cell Max meant to be any stronger than an incomplete Cell Max? Or is the difference purely that a complete Cell Max would have had intelligence, strategic and fighting skills but because he was incomplete he was just a dumb monster throwing his weight around?

In which case Cell Max would be more powerful than Broly but would lose to him in a fight.

Or is he simply just not as powerful as Broly?

This is also telling with the Orange Piccolo comment and him rivalling Goku. In other words as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly is still above Goku and Vegeta.

How Gohan fits in to that is another matter.

Hedo does say in the film that Cell Max itself is already completed. His mind control program was not.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Not necessarily since Toriyama tends to compare villain’s power with other villains, not the heroes. But it wouldn’t be surprising if Broly was stronger since we don’t even know if movie Goku can use UI and Broly is within Beerus’ power range.

Yeah but he did compare Orange Piccolo to Goku and Orange Piccolo is weaker than Cell Max.

Also the movie itself did have Gohan say that Goku and Vegeta probably couldn't have beat Cell Max.

Then again I'm sure the movie also had Piccolo say that Goku and Vegeta were comparable to the Gamma's so they're either on par with them or Orange Piccolo anyway.

Hedo does say in the film that Cell Max itself is already completed. His mind control program was not.

So yeah maybe like I said in terms of raw power Cell Max could be superior to Broly. It's just that he's a uncontrollable monster whereas Broly was....also an uncontrollable monster pretty much.

Either way the Cell Max we saw couldn't beat Broly from how me makes it sound.

[Mr Baggins]

Although saying Vegeta can’t be a candidate in U7 is wrong given Goku was offered being a God of Destruction in Battle of Gods.

Goku was never offered that position in the manga's Battle of Gods arc. The only time it ever comes up is when Beerus tells Vegeta he could probably qualify in another universe, and that's with completed Blue. Again, the implication is obvious on multiple fronts.

I'm uninterested in continuing this because you keep digging your argument even further into the ground. Not a good look. Have a nice day.

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

That's fine. At full power, we've only ever seen him engage with Blue Gogeta. Both Vegetto and Broly were said to be stronger than Beerus in the series.

[HeroR]

Although saying Vegeta can’t be a candidate in U7 is wrong given Goku was offered being a God of Destruction in Battle of Gods.

Goku was never offered that position in the manga's Battle of Gods arc. The only time it ever comes up is when Beerus tells Vegeta he could probably qualify in another universe, and that's with completed Blue. Again, the implication is obvious on multiple fronts.

I'm uninterested in continuing this because you keep digging your argument even further into the ground. Not a good look. Have a nice day.

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

That's fine. At full power, we've only ever seen him engage with Blue Gogeta. Both Vegetto and Broly were said to be stronger than Beerus in the series.

Except the manga also used both Resurrection ‘F’ and Broly movies since Toyo skipped them in the manga and Whis offered Goku to be a God of Destruction and Beerus asked if Goku wanted to be a God of Destruction in Resurrection ‘F’.

I’m digging. You’re ignoring statements from Battle of Gods because of the manga and not taking into account that the manga treats the movies Resurrection ‘F’ and Battle of Gods as part of its canon and all of them had Whis or Beerus asking Goku if he wanted to be a God of Destruction.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Putting this new information together and assuming that Toriyama would not be taking into account Ultra Instinct you could probably order it like so

Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which to me is definitely fair. That works out fine to me. Obviously Gohan would be above Cell Max whether he's above Broly is another thing. Might have been mentioned if he was.

You could probably even combine this with the manga to say this

Gas > Ultra Instinct Goku / Ultra Ego Vegeta > Granolah > Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which would also work.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if UI is in the equation in any of the movie and Toriyama's statements. The technique is never mentioned, and the movie is intended as a direct sequel to Broly in which both Goku and Vegeta are capped at tSSB level, and Goku is not able to access UI at will.

I mean, it's fine if Piccolo is indeed UI level because it means we'll finally be able to see him being relevant in important battles in the upcoming stories instead of being relegated to the same role we've been seen him since the Boo arc. But I'm not sure if these things are being taken into account. And I'm pretty sure the manga will deal with all of this in a different way because there's Ultra Ego, Granolah and Gas there, so in the end I'm not sure if this even matter lol

[HeroR]

Putting this new information together and assuming that Toriyama would not be taking into account Ultra Instinct you could probably order it like so

Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which to me is definitely fair. That works out fine to me. Obviously Gohan would be above Cell Max whether he's above Broly is another thing. Might have been mentioned if he was.

You could probably even combine this with the manga to say this

Gas > Ultra Instinct Goku / Ultra Ego Vegeta > Granolah > Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which would also work.

The manga scaling doesn’t really work because Broly is within the same power range as Beerus and Toyo said Goku was still behind Beerus.

[ZombieVito]

Putting this new information together and assuming that Toriyama would not be taking into account Ultra Instinct you could probably order it like so

Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which to me is definitely fair. That works out fine to me. Obviously Gohan would be above Cell Max whether he's above Broly is another thing. Might have been mentioned if he was.

You could probably even combine this with the manga to say this

Gas > Ultra Instinct Goku / Ultra Ego Vegeta > Granolah > Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which would also work.

Why wouldn't he take UI into account? It happened.

[HeroR]

Putting this new information together and assuming that Toriyama would not be taking into account Ultra Instinct you could probably order it like so

Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which to me is definitely fair. That works out fine to me. Obviously Gohan would be above Cell Max whether he's above Broly is another thing. Might have been mentioned if he was.

You could probably even combine this with the manga to say this

Gas > Ultra Instinct Goku / Ultra Ego Vegeta > Granolah > Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which would also work.

Why wouldn't he take UI into account? It happened.

This movie was being written in 2017 before Moro. So why would Toriyama take UI into account when Goku in Broly couldn't even use the form.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The manga scaling doesn’t really work because Broly is within the same power range as Beerus and Toyo said Goku was still behind Beerus.

Yeah but that's something that could quite easily be waved aside.

Goku only said that Broly was "probably" stronger than Beerus so...he'd just simply be wrong. Maybe he's never seen Beerus at full power so how would he know? Easy to get around that.

Then of course in real life Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. Then Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta fighting together could match him. Then he's not bothered by Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X10. Then maybe Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is stronger than Beerus. Then he's on a level more like that of a Jiren. Then maybe Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than him now. Then he's probably weaker than Broly. Now he's likely stronger than Gas.

So he's a moving goal post.

[ZombieVito]

This movie was being written in 2017 before Moro. So why would Toriyama take UI into account when Goku in Broly couldn't even use the form.

For the same reason Gohan's Enraged SS2 form/power was being taken into account in the Boo arc even though Gohan never used it in the arc. UI is Goku's max power so that's the power they measure him with.

Also it doesn't make sense for Piccolo to compare the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta and then for Gohan to compare Cell Max to them again since that would mean the Gammas ~ Cell Max and that's obviously not the case. Not even close.

[Mr Baggins]

But I'm not sure if these things are being taken into account.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I think you can reasonably combine this with the manga without too many hiccups. You'd probably end up with something like Broly > Cell Max > UI Goku > UE Vegeta > Orange Piccolo, which is fine. Broly was already compared to Beerus and I don't remember anything particularly implying he'd lose to Goku at full power.

The only oddity would be Goku calling Moro his toughest opponent, but meh. You can handwave it.

[HeroR]

This movie was being written in 2017 before Moro. So why would Toriyama take UI into account when Goku in Broly couldn't even use the form.

For the same reason Gohan's Enraged SS2 form/power was being taken into account in the Boo arc even though Gohan never used it in the arc. UI is Goku's max power so that's the power they measure him with.

Also it doesn't make sense for Piccolo to compare the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta and then for Gohan to compare Cell Max to them again since that would mean the Gammas ~ Cell Max and that's obviously not the case. Not even close.

We're talking about the Buu Saga which isn't the same as talking about a movie that predates what happened in the manga by around three years. Fact is, Goku lost UI and we don't know if Toriyama ever gave it back to him. Realistically, if he was taking the power-scaling of the manga into account the manga then Broly and Jiren should be piss stains to Goku and Vegeta.

All that means is Piccolo think the Gamma are within Goku and Vegeta's power. That's it. That doesn't tell us if Goku has UI or not.

The manga scaling doesn’t really work because Broly is within the same power range as Beerus and Toyo said Goku was still behind Beerus.

Yeah but that's something that could quite easily be waved aside.

Goku only said that Broly was "probably" stronger than Beerus so...he'd just simply be wrong. Maybe he's never seen Beerus at full power so how would he know? Easy to get around that.

Then of course in real life Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. Then Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta fighting together could match him. Then he's not bothered by Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X10. Then maybe Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is stronger than Beerus. Then he's on a level more like that of a Jiren. Then maybe Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than him now. Then he's probably weaker than Broly. Now he's likely stronger than Gas.

So he's a moving goal post.

Which the movie double down on with Beerus showing weariness towards Broly along with other statements Goku made. That and why would Toriyama write a line that has no basics at all? It's getting a little weird that people are so willing to ignore statements from Toriyama's official script just to fit someone's power scaling bias.

Vegito Blue > Beerus was only said in the manga, and even Toyo walked that back with 'who knows, maybe Shin was wrong'. Also the anime retellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F', which were Toriyama's idea, removed the line about Goku and Vegeta being able to beat Beerus.

Point is, Goku had to be way off base with Broly's power to believe Broly was within Beerus' power range, which is why Toyo avoids talking about Broly.

[omaro34]

Unless they come up with something truly ludicrous for Majin Buu or 17 and 18, Piccolo is officially the 4th strongest person on the entire planet.

5th strongest mortal in the universe.

I'm so happy.

Hard to say with 17 since they’ve been no mention of him since the TOP if we don’t count the manga. I mean, 17 could be stronger as far as we know given the power boost they gave him after Cell ate him. Remember, 17 was stronger than Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

With Toriyama shoehorning Piccolo in with two new forms I think it’s best to assume that he’s stronger than 17 at this point.

[omaro34]

Piccolo rivals Goku.

Almost every interview about Piccolo lately, Toriyama mentions that Piccolo is his favourite character. It’s like the third time.

[ZombieVito]

Almost every interview about Piccolo lately, Toriyama mentions that Piccolo is his favourite character. It’s like the third time.

He always has said it.

This is the first time he actually convinces me though.

[Lukmendes]

So.....I take it that this means then that Cell Max is not above Broly then.

It depends how this works. Was a complete Cell Max meant to be any stronger than an incomplete Cell Max? Or is the difference purely that a complete Cell Max would have had intelligence, strategic and fighting skills but because he was incomplete he was just a dumb monster throwing his weight around?

In which case Cell Max would be more powerful than Broly but would lose to him in a fight.

Or is he simply just not as powerful as Broly?

This is also telling with the Orange Piccolo comment and him rivalling Goku. In other words as far as Toriyama is concerned Broly is still above Goku and Vegeta.

How Gohan fits in to that is another matter.

The movie itself says that Cell Max is already complete, but the mind control program isn't done yet.

The picture you posted also has Toriyama mentioning that because Cell Max was forcefully activated, he became an uncontrollable monster, it doesn't say he has less power because of it.

The end of the movie also has Gohan saying that even Goku and Vegeta would struggle to defeat him.

Whatever his power is, he's very strong, basically, but being a mindless monster made him less dangerous, which's, kinda ironic, since Kid Boo being mindless is exactly what made him be the most difficult Boo to deal with lol.

Putting this new information together and assuming that Toriyama would not be taking into account Ultra Instinct you could probably order it like so

Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which to me is definitely fair. That works out fine to me. Obviously Gohan would be above Cell Max whether he's above Broly is another thing. Might have been mentioned if he was.

You could probably even combine this with the manga to say this

Gas > Ultra Instinct Goku / Ultra Ego Vegeta > Granolah > Broly > Cell Max > Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta / Orange Piccolo > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 / 2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Which would also work.

I would say Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, since Piccolo could not handle Cell Max at all, and Gohan casually tanked his attacks on their brief fight, and even said "Is that all you got?" after tanking the punch.

Unless you meant to say Gohan is stronger than Piccolo but forgot to include the Blanco form in the list lol.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo never took a Senzu bean so he wasn't exactly fresh while fighting Cell Max.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Broly > Cell max that was defeated Makes sense to me.

The interviews are lining up with everything in the movie. Cell max was not that much stronger than piccolo, so if Piccolo rivals Goku, then adding Vegeta to the mix would make it so that it is inconclusive as to whether they could have defeated cell max, which is what Gohan stated.

Broly > Cell max > Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta > Gohan

Completed Cell max > Broly is wild. What a hypothetical that would have been.

Gohan Blanco was definitive stronger than Cell max, but I honestly don’t know how he would compare to GoD Level characters.