"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Toriyama will likely take into account of these implications and make changes if necessary to make it work with the manga. As of now, Super Hero clearly doesn't align with the manga because Goku and Vegeta prior to their most recent training and constant power-ups were much stronger than Broly as Broly wasn't even in the picture when competing to be the top 3 strongest within Universe 7. Toyotaro may scrap away the implications that suggest Broly is a threat to Goku/Vegeta/Beerus or he could undergo his own story arc within this 3-4 year span between the Granolah arc and Super Hero that raises him higher up on the ladder near both Goku and Vegeta.

Only time will tell. I think Toriyama and Toyotaro are both aware of this especially given the interview conducted by Iyoku as well as the interview involving Toyotaro which explicitly mentioned which fighters Goku and Vegeta are trying to catch up to. I'm not too worried of the outcome at the moment.

[Mr Baggins]

Broly should still be stronger than them. In the official site interview with Toyotaro, Uchida mentions Broly as being one of the characters Goku hasn't caught up to yet; Toyotaro doesn't contest it, and Uchida is his editor. V Jump guides that cover the Granolah arc mention that Broly (at least in his full power form) exceeds Goku. The movie compares his power to Beerus's.

If nothing else, Shueisha still sees Broly as being somewhere at the top of the ladder. As to why he isn't counted among the wish's beneficiaries, that's anyone's guess. Maybe he's technically the strongest in raw power output, but isn't the universe's best fighter because of his issues controlling it. That's what the guide suggests, in any case.

[Jack Bz]

I think between the wishes in the Granolah arc + Whis saying he doesn't know of anyone stronger than Goku or Vegeta (and Goku being surprised when it looks like he might), it's clear that Toyotaro wrote the arc in mind that Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, and there wasn't much communication between the new film + manga. Especially the fact that meditation is somehow a method of training that Goku seems skeptical of despite him being shown to be meditating multiple times during the Granolah arc in order to get better at using ultra instinct.

Honestly, Vegeta describing the way Jiren was efficient with his power in the latest movie being treated like some kind of revelation makes it seem like ultra instinct didn't even happen in the movie continuity. No one ever even mentions it, and one would've thought that Goku using a technique that is meant to be a mastery of movement and martial arts would come up in the context of the conversation they were having of Jiren being extremely efficient with his movement rather than absurdly powerful.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Especially the fact that meditation is somehow a method of training that Goku seems skeptical of despite him being shown to be meditating multiple times during the Granolah arc in order to get better at using ultra instinct.

I think this reaction from him was strange beyond the context of the Granolah arc. Meditation was never a foreign method for Goku, who has used this form of training at different points in the series. And it's even stranger precisely because he supposedly recently used a technique that is all about the mind. So him acting like what Vegeta was doing was pointless doesn't make much sense. Whis even called him out for it, saying he shouldn't train just his body (which at this point should have been obvious to him)

[Mr Baggins]

and there wasn't much communication between the new film + manga.

That's plausible, especially given Iyoku's comments and considering how early the film's script was written.

However, potential discrepancies are just potential discrepancies. I highly doubt any of this is an indication that the franchise holders actually see them as different continuities, unless you assume that Sheuisha's entire editorial department is wrong.

[Hellspawn28]

They willl probably won't kill off Freeza knowing that they will give him a new form soon.

He's going to steal colors from Goku once again, this time as... Platinum Frieza!

DBS likes to use recolors, so it seems likely.

[Shorty GZ2]

I think between the wishes in the Granolah arc + Whis saying he doesn't know of anyone stronger than Goku or Vegeta (and Goku being surprised when it looks like he might), it's clear that Toyotaro wrote the arc in mind that Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, and there wasn't much communication between the new film + manga. Especially the fact that meditation is somehow a method of training that Goku seems skeptical of despite him being shown to be meditating multiple times during the Granolah arc in order to get better at using ultra instinct.

Honestly, Vegeta describing the way Jiren was efficient with his power in the latest movie being treated like some kind of revelation makes it seem like ultra instinct didn't even happen in the movie continuity. No one ever even mentions it, and one would've thought that Goku using a technique that is meant to be a mastery of movement and martial arts would come up in the context of the conversation they were having of Jiren being extremely efficient with his movement rather than absurdly powerful.

It is a bit telling that in none of the Broly & Super Hero materials/interviews, not a single mention or reference is made to Ultra Instinct (whether the " hint of UI" in Broly was really one or not) or anything particular that really happened during ToP beyond "Goku is already coming close to the level of the gods. Vegeta is furiously trying to catch up to him. And Freeza especially shows a lot of growth this time." I suppose Toyo still maintaining Goku has to consciously activate using the unconscious UI technique in his base sort of fits with how he doesn't use it at all in his "no special stuff" spar with Vegeta.

On the meditation stuff, Goku's already been shown meditating in the original manga and in the Super anime, so I don't even know what that whole "no way meditation is a form of training Vegeta??" segment in the movie was all about. Also, (aside from it coincidentally matching with what he says in the manga) Jiren's "revolutionary" approach to fighting of raising his ki to the max at the moments when he attacks was something Vegeta saw Goku already do against the Ginyu Force back on Namek, so lol

As for Broly, am not too sure. Freeza making a point that Broly will become "the mightiest warrior" when he controls his mind/power and that Broly hasn't even been able to manage that in 3 years after his movie/in Super Hero makes me guess he's not counted as one of the strongest alike with Goku and Vegeta in spite of his SS form being stronger than both of them in SSB & being close to matching SS Gogeta (Idt we know officially what the fusion multiplier is beyond "much greater than the sum of their parts") before Gogeta went SSB & washed him.

[Dragmobot12]

I hope Toyotaro watched the fourth Thor movie and got inspired by Gorr The God Butcher.

A villain like Gorr would have fit very well in Dragon Ball, but I would have liked to see another, much sadder story for this type of villain that would have make us at least sympathize with him.

[Goku9001]

Broly should still be stronger than them. In the official site interview with Toyotaro, Uchida mentions Broly as being one of the characters Goku hasn't caught up to yet; Toyotaro doesn't contest it, and Uchida is his editor. V Jump guides that cover the Granolah arc mention that Broly (at least in his full power form) exceeds Goku. The movie compares his power to Beerus's.

If nothing else, Shueisha still sees Broly as being somewhere at the top of the ladder. As to why he isn't counted among the wish's beneficiaries, that's anyone's guess. Maybe he's technically the strongest in raw power output, but isn't the universe's best fighter because of his issues controlling it. That's what the guide suggests, in any case.

Do you have a source on the V Jump guide? I'd love to see it.

[Mr Baggins]

Do you have a source on the V Jump guide? I'd love to see it.

Posting links to pirated materials is frowned upon here, so I'd rather avoid doing that. To point you in the right direction, DBSChronicles covered some translations of the guide on Twitter a couple of months ago.

The article in question is about 15 pages and dedicates four of those pages to reviewing the events of the original manga and Super manga from movie Broly's POV. But there are other mini-guides in V Jump that have also tied the movies and manga into the same continuity — one of them suggests that readers look at the Broly "anicomic" (which is screenshots of the movie in manga format) after finishing the ToP arc in volume 9, and another one reviews Gohan and Piccolo's relationship throughout the manga while including the Moro arc and ending at Super Hero.

Those are just the articles we know of. There are probably others still unaccounted for.

[Shorty GZ2]

I hope Toyotaro watched the fourth Thor movie and got inspired by Gorr The God Butcher.

A villain like Gorr would have fit very well in Dragon Ball, but I would have liked to see another, much sadder story for this type of villain that would have make us at least sympathize with him.

Gorr the God Butcher got-butchered in Love & Thunder, so better he at least look to the original comic for inspiration instead

[Hugo Boss]

Do you have a source on the V Jump guide? I'd love to see it.

Posting links to pirated materials is frowned upon here, so I'd rather avoid doing that. To point you in the right direction, DBSChronicles covered some translations of the guide on Twitter a couple of months ago.

The article in question is about 15 pages and dedicates four of those pages to reviewing the events of the original manga and Super manga from movie Broly's POV. But there are other mini-guides in V Jump that have also tied the movies and manga into the same continuity — one of them suggests that readers look at the Broly "anicomic" (which is screenshots of the movie in manga format) after finishing the ToP arc in volume 9, and another one reviews Gohan and Piccolo's relationship throughout the manga while including the Moro arc and ending at Super Hero.

Those are just the articles we know of. There are probably others still unaccounted for.

Using these references, I searched for the article and I think I’ve found what you are referring to?

(May 2nd) Saikyo Jump: “Participation confirmed (in DBS Super Hero): Way too strong! The strongest man!”

Presumably Broly by the images. Describes what happened in DBS Broly and other stuff.

(May 3rd) Broly’s Secret Technique: Broly’s unique transformation can beat Goku?! He awakened Super Saiyan Full Power, which made him fight evenly with Gogeta. But then, he lost control of himself and went berserk. If he controls his emotions and fights calmly, he surely can win!

Presumably it’s talking about Goku in the SSGSS (Blue) form as it is next to the description of it.


Another scan also goes on to say…

“Training with Beerus awakens the power of destruction! If Broly trains too, he may find a new evolution different from Goku's?!”

The others I think are from late April, if I’m not mistaken, but I will focus purely on Broly vs. Goku and Vegeta here.

It’s interesting the scans are basically comparisons between Broly and other Saiyans, and they even show Vegeta’s ultra ego form, but when it is asked if Broly can beat Goku it doesn’t clear establish that Goku can use ultra instinct there, unless I’m missing something. It only suggests that if Broly trains he may reach a different evolution from Goku, like Vegeta did. Curiously, it suggests Blue is the form one should aim for (?).

In another hand, the Saikyo Jump scan pretty much implies Broly is the strongest “man” (whatever that means) in DBS Super Hero, though it obviously excluded very key details from the movie climax.

[Mr Baggins]

but when it is asked if Broly can beat Goku it doesn’t clear establish that Goku can use ultra instinct there, unless I’m missing something.

It doesn't specifically refer to any one form, but my takeaway is that it's referring to Goku in general (as in whatever full power he can muster as of the Granolah arc) since Ultra Ego is brought up in the same guide. And I think you're right that that particular article was from Saikyo Jump, not V Jump.

The point here is that Sheuisha is clearly putting both the movies and manga in the same timeline, so they'd have to be reconciled regardless. The guide still frames Broly as a relevant contender compared to Goku and Vegeta, so I would think it's a bigger stretch to assume he's inferior than not; particularly when the Granolah arc would have the reader believe they haven't even surpassed Beerus yet. On top of that, there's Uchida himself putting Broly above Goku. I'd say it's pretty clear-cut from a broader franchise perspective.

With all that said, I'm sure Goku would be back on top with a more refined Ultra Instinct.

[Goku9001]

I figured the implication based on those statements is that Broly is weaker than Goku as he is now which is consistent with what the manga states. However, if he refined his powers and/or stabilized his mind, then he would be able to match up to Goku and Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Just for clarification notes, the scan that compares Broly to Goku has him next to a description of Blue Goku:

(Goku) broke through his limits after training with Whis! Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: A Super Saiyan God that turns into a Super Saiyan! It may be the best form one should aim for, since even Broly had a hard time with it.

It shows above a chain of Goku going from SS3 to SSG then SSGSS. I can’t see anything other than that (presumably it’s talking about how Goku’s forms work, there must have SS1 and SS2 in some other place as it mentions Great Ape in other scan). But it also mentions Vegeta’s Ultra Ego, meaning it may really be taking into account Silver Ultra Instinct as well. Despite that, I can’t see any mention of it anywhere, which is odd.

By the way, the Saikyo Jump scan is a totally different work, but I concur you can add this and other Shueisha stuff and conclude that Broly has that Uber-level rank locked out from the Cerealian Dragon Ball wishes because he can’t control his emotions yet, lowering his rank quite a lot. This may be also the reasoning behind keeping the gods exempt from the wishes. Seems like a good compromise too.

Come to think of it, Gohan does manage to combine the best of worlds, despite being the one that works toward it the least.

[Goku9001]

I think Broly as he was against Gogeta clearly isn't even relevant to Goku and Vegeta at the end of the Moro arc but I think it's reasonable to assume that if he had proper control over his power could rise beyond Granolah/Gas. Frieza does seem to suggest that Broly would be unstoppable at the end of Broly if he could control his mind.

[Mr Baggins]

I concur you can add this and other Shueisha stuff and conclude that Broly has that Uber-level rank locked out from the Cerealian Dragon Ball wishes because he can’t control his emotions yet, lowering his rank quite a lot.

For the record, I do think that's the thrust of both the movie and supplemental materials alike. Broly is still the powerhouse of the group — to the point of being compared to Beerus — but his lack of control over his strength would leave him at a disadvantage in an actual fight; hence Goku being a superior fighter while not necessarily outstripping him at his peak. That's what I got from his "full power" blurb in the guide.

Don't be surprised if his next arc positions him as the dragon team's Hulk, with or without emotional control.

[Koitsukai]

In another hand, the Saikyo Jump scan pretty much implies Broly is the strongest “man” (whatever that means) in DBS Super Hero, though it obviously excluded very key details from the movie climax.

I guess it means Beerus?

[batistabus]

Volume 19 Cover:

Spoiler:

Cute!

[Jack Bz]

I love that cover. May be my favourite of them all